Contradiction in the Law of Identity

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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Dennis Mahar
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Re: Contradiction in the Law of Identity

Post by Dennis Mahar »

it's funny how many members of the scientific community understand the play of causality on the one hand,
and for emotional reasons enter into Pascal's idea of the 'God Wager' as insurance and attend church religiously.

Just in case.
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Pincho Paxton
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Re: Contradiction in the Law of Identity

Post by Pincho Paxton »

Dennis Mahar wrote:it's funny how many members of the scientific community understand the play of causality on the one hand,
and for emotional reasons enter into Pascal's idea of the 'God Wager' as insurance and attend church religiously.

Just in case.
Most scientists search for superiority, so play all superior roles. Religion has some superior positions.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Contradiction in the Law of Identity

Post by Dennis Mahar »

So the form of particles can be ultimately real without any conscious mind at work. You only have to wave a washing up liquid around to create sphere. No intelligence in the wand.
there is no factual evidence that form exists independent of consciousness.
get rid of that assumption immediately.
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Pincho Paxton
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Re: Contradiction in the Law of Identity

Post by Pincho Paxton »

Dennis Mahar wrote:
So the form of particles can be ultimately real without any conscious mind at work. You only have to wave a washing up liquid around to create sphere. No intelligence in the wand.
there is no factual evidence that form exists independent of consciousness.
get rid of that assumption immediately.

Rocks bump together, they aren't conscious.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Contradiction in the Law of Identity

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Who's lookin' at the rocks.
Don't worry about the properties of rocks.
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Pincho Paxton
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Re: Contradiction in the Law of Identity

Post by Pincho Paxton »

Dennis Mahar wrote:Who's lookin' at the rocks.
Don't worry about the properties of rocks.
Nobody. I saw the sand afterwards.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Contradiction in the Law of Identity

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Nobody is somebody
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Pincho Paxton
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Re: Contradiction in the Law of Identity

Post by Pincho Paxton »

Dennis Mahar wrote:Nobody is somebody
Is that Enlightened?
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Contradiction in the Law of Identity

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Are you present?

Hi!
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Dan Rowden
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Re: Contradiction in the Law of Identity

Post by Dan Rowden »

Pincho Paxton wrote:
Dennis Mahar wrote:it's funny how many members of the scientific community understand the play of causality on the one hand,
and for emotional reasons enter into Pascal's idea of the 'God Wager' as insurance and attend church religiously.

Just in case.
Most scientists search for superiority, so play all superior roles. Religion has some superior positions.
Name one.
oxytocinNA
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Re: Contradiction in the Law of Identity

Post by oxytocinNA »

Dennis Mahar wrote:
Please feel free to point out what is delusional about the quote:"Everything that exists has a specific nature. Each entity exists as something in particular and it has characteristics that are a part of what it is."
Nothing exists independent of a mental act that designates the properties, characteristics and functions attributed to it.

To be rational is to have it in its ratio or correct perspective.
You cannot exclude the mental act.

Quit muckin' about.
OK ... a mental act - perception: there has to be something (existants / existence) to perceive.

Perceptions are not existants. The latter does not need the former to exist.

But that has nothing to do with a simple request; to point out what is delusional about the quoted statement.

time for some more muckin about ...LOL
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Jamesh
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Re: Contradiction in the Law of Identity

Post by Jamesh »

Religion has some superior positions.
The missionary position has always been popular. To be popular it must be therefore be superior to other positions in some way to a significant number of people. With the missionary position one of course misses out on clearly seeing the holes and fillers in action. A superior position for the Lazy Man who wants something soft to lie on.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Contradiction in the Law of Identity

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Jamesh wrote:The missionary position has always been popular.
Surprising to some perhaps, especially valued by Women!
Jamesh wrote:With the missionary position one of course misses out on clearly seeing the holes and fillers in action.
A superior position for the Lazy Man who wants something soft to lie on.
Didn't get much, did you? You've stared too much into abysses, at holes and fillers on flat screens perhaps: the ultimate laziness!

But religious drive as dominance, as creator, as cultural rapist: to inseminate the world with spirit. Those were the good old days! :-)
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Pincho Paxton
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Re: Contradiction in the Law of Identity

Post by Pincho Paxton »

Dan Rowden wrote:
Pincho Paxton wrote:
Dennis Mahar wrote:it's funny how many members of the scientific community understand the play of causality on the one hand,
and for emotional reasons enter into Pascal's idea of the 'God Wager' as insurance and attend church religiously.

Just in case.
Most scientists search for superiority, so play all superior roles. Religion has some superior positions.
Name one.
The religious leader of a cult, the religious leader of a father at the dinner table forcing people to pray for their dinner, the leader of Christian women, the person who opens Heaven's gates, and combine that with the scientist. The person who knows books, the Bible, and The Big Bang Standard Model combined, the mathematician. Combine more and you get, the person that understands the heavens more than anybody else.

I think of Christianity, and The Standard Model of Science as identical.

God builds the Universe
Gravity Builds the Universe

God is Omnipresent
Time is Omnipresent

The Bible
The Standard Model

The Burning Bush
The Big Bang

Spooky Quantum Physics, particle wave duality
Jesus walks on water

They both attract people by implying that the Universe is somehow magical.

It's not magical, it is simple.. holes, and fillers.
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Robert
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Re: Contradiction in the Law of Identity

Post by Robert »

I reckon you've got pretty big hole in your head, Pincho.
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Kunga
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Re: Contradiction in the Law of Identity

Post by Kunga »

The beauty you see...is the beauty inside of yourself....
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Jehu
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Re: Contradiction in the Law of Identity

Post by Jehu »

Since all languages are systems of symbolic communication, and given that the symbols employed therein have no intrinsic (i.e., naturally inherent) meaning, it follows that, if a language is to be intelligible, there must be one or more principles that govern the way that the users of the language attribute meaning to its symbols. In his treatise An Investigation of the Laws of Thought, the English philosopher and logician George Boole made the following observation with respect to the nature of language and those principles that must inhere naturally within: “There exist, indeed, certain general principles founded in the very nature of language, by which the use of symbols, which are but the elements of scientific language, is determined. To a certain extent these elements are arbitrary. Their interpretation is purely conventional: we are permitted to employ them in whatever sense we please. But this permission is limited by two indispensable conditions, first, that from the sense once conventionally established we never, in the same process of reasoning, depart; secondly, that the laws by which the process is conducted be founded exclusively upon the above fixed sense or meaning of the symbols employed.” Therefore, since we understand the meaning of a linguistic term to be an expression of the essence of that thing which the term denotes, it follows that each term constitutes the linguistic identity of that thing, the essence of which corresponds to that which is expressed in its conventionally prescribed definition.

The Law of Identity

Boole's principle of a “ fixed sense or meaning of the symbols employed” is merely an alternative expression of that linguistic principle that is traditionally known as the Law of Identity: that everything be the same with itself and different from another. This law follows logically out of the doctrine of essentialism: that each thing comprises a unique set of characteristics that are essential to its being what it is; i.e., its essence or nature. Therefore, given that linguistic terms are able to denote things only by virtue of their prescribed definitions, it follows that the least ambiguous language is that one wherein each term has only one definition. Aristotle alluded to this same principle when he wrote: “... for not to have one meaning is to have no meaning, and if words have no meaning our reasoning with one another, and indeed with ourselves, has been annihilated;...”i In other words, without such a law there would be no reliable means for the users of a language to attribute the appropriate meaning to a linguistic symbol, and therefore, no possibility of intelligible discourse. Symbolically, the Law of Identity is properly formulated: “A is A and not ~A”; where the symbol “~” signifies the complementary opposite.

The Law of Non-contradiction

Then, given that each thing (class or particular) must have its own distinct nature (essence), it follows that whatever is an element of that nature may be rightfully predicated of that thing, while that which is not an element of that nature cannot be rightfully predicated of that thing. Consequently, no one predicate can, at the same time and in the same sense, be both asserted and denied of the same thing. This principle is then a correlate of the Law of Identity, and is traditionally known as the Law of Non-contradiction: nothing can, at the same time and in the same respect, both be and not be. For example, a man may be tall with respect to another man, and short with respect to yet another man; or he may be tall with respect to a man at one time, and short with respect to that same man at another time; but he cannot be both tall and short with respect to the same man at the same time. Symbolically, it is formulated: “~(A and ~A)”.

The Law of Excluded Middle

Furthermore, given that each thing can have but one nature, and that each nature comprises a unique set of characteristics, it follows that, at any given time and in any given sense, every conceivable characteristics must be either asserted or denied of a given thing. Therefore, this principle is also a correlate of the Law of Identity, and is traditionally known as the Law of Excluded Middle: everything must, at all times and in all senses, either be and not be. For example, either a thing exhibit that quality we call “red” or it does not; there being no intermediate alternative. Symbolically, it is formulated: “A or ~A”.

The Nature of Linguistic Discrimination

These three traditional laws of thought arise as a result of the dichotomizing nature of the process of linguistic discrimination, and so display the defining characteristics of a dichotomy, namely, that the two resulting parts: “A” (self) and “~A” (other), are mutually exclusive and jointly exhaustive with respect to the domain of all things. In other words, the Law of Identity partitions the domain of all things into exactly two parts: the one part containing that class or particular thing that is discriminated, and the other part containing everything else. The Law of Non-contradiction is an expression of the mutually exclusive aspect of the dichotomous pair, and the Law of Excluded Middle, an expression of the jointly exhaustive aspect. And, as with all dichotomous pairs, the two principles complete one another in some higher principle, and this higher principle is none other than the Law of Identity.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Contradiction in the Law of Identity

Post by Dennis Mahar »

it's all one thing and it's dangerous.
naught beyond.
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Pincho Paxton
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Re: Contradiction in the Law of Identity

Post by Pincho Paxton »

Enlightenment is too easy in this case. A child... (according to giving things names A = A).. is Enlightened. At least give yourselves a goal of achieving the Genius that the site suggests. Become aware of the Identity of metamorphosis of scale...

Chair becomes ragged becomes atomic, become spacial, becomes photons, becomes time.

Not the childish A = A.

For example the waves of the Ocean cannot be waves at the Quantum level. There should be straight lines, so how do they know when to curve? It is the genius that sees the metamorphosis of scale.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Contradiction in the Law of Identity

Post by Dennis Mahar »

P,
the truth is not a matter for concealment.



the spatial properties of an object cannot be essential.
For it would be absurd to suppose that the spatial location of an object could exist without the object itself—
or, conversely,
that there could be an object without location.
Hence, location and object are
interdependent.

From this it follows that there is no characterized
And no existing characteristic ultimately.
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Tomas
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Re: Contradiction in the Law of Identity

Post by Tomas »

Pincho Paxton wrote:It is the genius that sees the metamorphosis of scale.
Amen to that.
Don't run to your death
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Pincho Paxton
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Re: Contradiction in the Law of Identity

Post by Pincho Paxton »

Dennis Mahar wrote:P,
the truth is not a matter for concealment.



the spatial properties of an object cannot be essential.
For it would be absurd to suppose that the spatial location of an object could exist without the object itself—
or, conversely,
that there could be an object without location.
Hence, location and object are
interdependent.

From this it follows that there is no characterized
And no existing characteristic ultimately.
yeah, that which hides cannot be without form, for the breeze that blows the wind never sends a sound from the falling tree. He with the single mind can see the cloud of the void in the eyes of the mind. For it is the Genius that has faith in what their ego sees. The mind which is brightest is strongest, and the chrysalis of the soul hidden within shall sit at the gates of the birth of mankind.

Why don't you guys ever write in English?
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Contradiction in the Law of Identity

Post by Dennis Mahar »

forget your persistent preference for shockingly bad poetry for a minnie.

attend to the argument.

the spatial properties of an object cannot be essential.
For it would be absurd to suppose that the spatial location of an object could exist without the object itself—
or, conversely,
that there could be an object without location.
Hence, location and object are
interdependent.

From this it follows that there is no characterized
And no existing characteristic ultimately.
oxytocinNA
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Re: Contradiction in the Law of Identity

Post by oxytocinNA »

Pincho Paxton wrote:Enlightenment is too easy in this case. A child... (according to giving things names A = A).. is Enlightened. At least give yourselves a goal of achieving the Genius that the site suggests. Become aware of the Identity of metamorphosis of scale...

Chair becomes ragged becomes atomic, become spacial, becomes photons, becomes time.

Not the childish A = A.

For example the waves of the Ocean cannot be waves at the Quantum level. There should be straight lines, so how do they know when to curve? It is the genius that sees the metamorphosis of scale.
OK this has now gone off the rails.

Throwing words around in manipulative ways instead of valid argument.
The dishonest argumentative violation (inference bullying, and aggrandizement) - attaching "child" to A is A. Then attaching the word "genius" to your scale argument (which is pointless, and not clever). I won't get into where you make a critical mistake in your thinking (I probably wouldn't do it under the best of circumstance - but the sheer dishonesty of this post - wow - you just dumped yourself to the lowest level with this). I don't mean to be rough about this, but this was really weak. Yeah I know there are some outright juvenile posts in this forum (just plain attacks or insults etc.), but those are so pointless that one can just ignore them.
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Dan Rowden
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Re: Contradiction in the Law of Identity

Post by Dan Rowden »

Pincho Paxton wrote:Why don't you guys ever write in English?
That's the funniest thing I've ever read in the history of this forum. Brilliant.
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