Contradiction in the Law of Identity

[Dennis Mahar]

listing characteristics, properties, functions of 'things' has nothing to do with enlightenment.
that stuff is 'trapped in a cage'
thinking inside the box.
a word salad generating machine.

I asked you how does a chair exist.
you've provided 'particles in a location'
you've provided a 'what' and a 'where'.

I asked for a 'how'.
can you supply the 'how'.
do you know what 'how' means?

[Pincho Paxton]

listing characteristics, properties, functions of 'things' has nothing to do with enlightenment.
that stuff is 'trapped in a cage'
thinking inside the box.
a word salad generating machine.

I asked you how does a chair exist.
you've provided 'particles in a location'
you've provided a 'what' and a 'where'.

I asked for a 'how'.
can you supply the 'how'.
do you know what 'how' means?

How is followed by a description of what, and where, and other descriptions. That's how 'how' works.

[Dennis Mahar]

give the 'how' please.
the stuff you say that follows is deflecting from any serious analysis.

focus on the 'how' and try to avoid reciting from a dictionary of scientific nomenclature.

start thinking outside the box.

how does a chair exist?

[Pincho Paxton]

give the 'how' please.
the stuff you say that follows is deflecting from any serious analysis.

focus on the 'how' and try to avoid reciting from a dictionary of scientific nomenclature.

start thinking outside the box.

how does a chair exist?

First there was a tree which spun its way out of the ground, defying gravity by using a gyroscopic spin spin rotation. The particles moved into the area of least resistance by generating pressure to form holes in the granular structure of spacetime. Gravity flowed down through the tree, and the growth of the tree used the opposite reaction to the flow of Gravity. After many years man came along to cut down the tree. The cutting implement cannot share the same location of infinite regression as the wood of the tree. So the particles of the tree parted to make room for an axe, or a saw. Then this timber was taken away on a lorry. The wood was given a treatment to make it last longer, and then the timber was cut up into shapes. The shapes were put together to make a chair. The chair was given a coating. Man looks at the chair by identifying its edges, and its location. Man does not see the truth that the chair made from particles.

You ask how... but to be honest I could spend hours typing how. There are billions of particles to account for, and a lot of physics, and time, and energy, and evolution, and scale, and Quantum Physics.

[Dennis Mahar]

so, everything that's not a chair gets a chair.
a chair is a dynamic relationship we 'call' chair.

you've missed a vital ingredient that wouldn't show up in the billion particles to account for, so don't go down that track please.

[Pincho Paxton]

so, everything that's not a chair gets a chair.
a chair is a dynamic relationship we 'call' chair.

you've missed a vital ingredient that wouldn't show up in the billion particles to account for, so don't go down that track please.

a chair is a dynamic relationship we 'call' chair.

You try to change the English language into something more philosophical, but really you didn't post much at all...

Dynamic is a sort of way to say Physical.. so physics.

and...

A chair we 'call' chair

Doesn't say anything.

[Kunga]

Pincho,

what are the other elements that produced the tree ?

There had to be water, earth,sunlight,air,
and of course the seed that fell to the ground,
being nourished by the earth,sun,air,water....

it's all interdependent....everything is connected...
nothing inherently exists...[didn't just POP into existence by itself]

so the wood chair looks like a chair...but it was also
produced by all the other factors....
and of course all these factors are atoms,photons,etc....
and we see the chair as a chair....[the conventional view]...

[Dennis Mahar]

chairness only exists dependent on a Pincho that can't think it through.
particleness only exists dependent on a Pincho trapped in a cage juggling false identities.

[Kunga]

it's not even ethical to explain emptiness unless someone shows an interest .
you show no interest in what he has to say
open minds work both ways....

[Dennis Mahar]

same shit different day

[Dennis Mahar]

it's not even ethical to explain emptiness unless someone shows an interest .
you show no interest in what he has to say
open minds work both ways....

language comprises grammar, syntax.. how the words and sentences are strung together to deliver a semantic or 'meaning'.

its interesting to observe a speaking subject like Pincho in his role as a journalist reporting..
what he is reporting is inherent existence which is an error in thinking.

from our side emptiness is our meaning which is 'no thing', infinite, not a thing.
talking about emptiness is not emptiness.

our difficulty is when talking about 'no thing' we are talking about 'something' because language generates meaning.

how do you prepare a conversation about nothing as nothing and have it not mean something.

[SeekerOfWisdom]

how do you prepare a conversation about nothing as nothing and have it not mean something.

Done.

[Pincho Paxton]

Pincho,

what are the other elements that produced the tree ?

There had to be water, earth,sunlight,air,
and of course the seed that fell to the ground,
being nourished by the earth,sun,air,water....

it's all interdependent....everything is connected...
nothing inherently exists...[didn't just POP into existence by itself]

so the wood chair looks like a chair...but it was also
produced by all the other factors....
and of course all these factors are atoms,photons,etc....
and we see the chair as a chair....[the conventional view]...

When you say Water, Earth, Sunlight, Air, I turn them into fractals, and each fractal has its own size, and holes. So Water is a bunch of holes, because photons pass through it, and photons travel through holes. Photons are your sunlight, and bump each other to create a message through the holes. Air is positrons mixed with electrons to create an invisible flowing liquid, and Earth is compressed particles that have overlapped each other like Russian Dolls. I call that Enlightenment, when you can see things how they really are...

Not chair is something that we call a chair, and I can see emptiness.

We don't want to see emptiness, we want to see infinity. The opposite. There is no emptiness, the Universe exists because it was so full that nothing could move without bumping into a neighbour.

[Kunga]

We don't want to see emptiness, we want to see infinity. The opposite. There is no emptiness, the Universe exists because it was so full that nothing could move without bumping into a neighbour.

Yes...but being that everything is interconnected...it is empty of inherent existence...which means it does not exist as a separate entity...which means it is infinite. Then drop all conceptual thinking . To conceptualize, makes it a duality . :)

I call that Enlightenment, when you can see things how they really are...

Yes. And it's hard to convince others that can't see what you're seeing ! I bet if you talked to the Dalai Lama he would see it your way ! At least you'd have a fun conversation without being humiliated .

When you say Water, Earth, Sunlight, Air, I turn them into fractals

Well, that's one step further than what I ever would of thought of !!! A stunning visual too !!

[Pincho Paxton]

We don't want to see emptiness, we want to see infinity. The opposite. There is no emptiness, the Universe exists because it was so full that nothing could move without bumping into a neighbour.

Yes...but being that everything is interconnected...it is empty of inherent existence...which means it does not exist as a separate entity...which means it is infinite. Then drop all conceptual thinking . To conceptualize, makes it a duality . :)

I call that Enlightenment, when you can see things how they really are...

Yes. And it's hard to convince others that can't see what you're seeing ! I bet if you talked to the Dalai Lama he would see it your way ! At least you'd have a fun conversation without being humiliated .

When you say Water, Earth, Sunlight, Air, I turn them into fractals

Well, that's one step further than what I ever would of thought of !!! A stunning visual too !!

I don't see how everything is interconnected. There is scale, and like a jelly fish the scale fluctuates. If you look at the way the jelly fish flaps it gets bigger, and smaller. That's how I see particles. They expand, and shrink to create bumps. When they shrink they are not connected to the rest of the Universe, but when they expand they are connected to a neighbour. Then like pass the parcel, the neighbour sends the message along to the next particle. But that's not connected infinitely.

Locality is an important part of the Universe. Without locality there would be no information, or energy in the Universe.

[Kunga]

Ok...even so....would you say that the Universe is ONE ?
If the Universe is infinite, there was never a "begining" right ?
So, whatever this is....it is the same thing everywhere, even though it has different parts....
Like your body has different parts....but it is all connected, and functions as one being....within the ONE Universe....

Like fractals are all interconnected !

[Pincho Paxton]

Ok...even so....would you say that the Universe is ONE ?
If the Universe is infinite, there was never a "begining" right ?
So, whatever this is....it is the same thing everywhere, even though it has different parts....
Like your body has different parts....but it is all connected, and functions as one being....within the ONE Universe....

Like fractals are all interconnected !

From the outside you body mutes the messages that can pass through the skin. So you get a faint heartbeat, and all of the acids are hidden, and the helpful bacteria are hidden, etc. It is the butterfly effect that passes through the skin, just a tiny piece of information. Because the information is reduced we can call us one thing, because we can cope with the skin area on its own. But if we were put in a tiny submarine and into a body like in that movie, then a person is many things.

The Universe would be just a faint heartbeat from the outside, and then we could understand this little piece of information. But we are inside the Universe, so we have to understand everything as separate pieces of information.

[Kunga]

From the outside you body mutes the messages that can pass through the skin. So you get a faint heartbeat, and all of the acids are hidden, and the helpful bacteria are hidden, etc. It is the butterfly effect that passes through the skin, just a tiny piece of information. Because the information is reduced we can call us one thing, because we can cope with the skin area on its own. But if we were put in a tiny submarine and into a body like in that movie, then a person is many things.The Universe would be just a faint heartbeat from the outside, and then we could understand this little piece of information. But we are inside the Universe, so we have to understand everything as separate pieces of information.

Yes...but just as we connect these words together to communicate a message....even though it is difficult sometimes to put thoughts into words...still as the butterfly effect ripples out connecting and affecting all it touches....different particles appearing seperate....merging together....when the vibration stops....when the water is settled.....you can see the bottom of the lotus pond ! LOL

[Pincho Paxton]

From the outside you body mutes the messages that can pass through the skin. So you get a faint heartbeat, and all of the acids are hidden, and the helpful bacteria are hidden, etc. It is the butterfly effect that passes through the skin, just a tiny piece of information. Because the information is reduced we can call us one thing, because we can cope with the skin area on its own. But if we were put in a tiny submarine and into a body like in that movie, then a person is many things.The Universe would be just a faint heartbeat from the outside, and then we could understand this little piece of information. But we are inside the Universe, so we have to understand everything as separate pieces of information.

Yes...but just as we connect these words together to communicate a message....even though it is difficult sometimes to put thoughts into words...still as the butterfly effect ripples out connecting and affecting all it touches....different particles appearing seperate....merging together....when the vibration stops....when the water is settled.....you can see the bottom of the lotus pond ! LOL

Well sound travels, and light travels, and dogs can smell us from miles away. So the message ripples through the air. But I don't feel connected to another Galaxy.

[Kunga]

But I don't feel connected to another Galaxy.

Sometimes our feelings get in the way :) All the stuff that the Universe is composed of, is touching
we see through images of the Hubble telescope....galaxies being separated by dark matter[or whatever it is]
but all this stuff is interconnected....as you can see :

http://imgsrc.hubblesite.org/hu/db/imag ... ll_jpg.jpg


Like a blank piece of canvas with a painting on it.

[oxytocinNA]

http://fatfist.hubpages.com/hub/Law-of- ... tradictory

Is Law of Identity really irrefutable?

I recently stumbled upon this article:

We hear this claim all the time:

“The Law of Identity A=A (A is A) is self-evident. Each thing is the same as itself. There is no way around it. All of existence depends on it. Without it, you wouldn’t exist, wouldn’t be able to think, wouldn’t be able to talk intelligibly, wouldn’t be able to blah blah.....”

I have been around long enough to see a variety of arguments on this - including the quoted article (which is poorly written). Frankly - too tired to read through all the replies - so I hope this isn't a repeat.

A is A: Aristotle's Law of Identity

Everything that exists has a specific nature. Each entity exists as something in particular and it has characteristics that are a part of what it is.

To me this reads: A (the existent in question) is A (defined by that which characterizes it)

Not: A (an existent - i.e. a bird) = A (an existent - i.e. a bird)

You can quibble over the the structure - A is A, but at least get the meaning right.

[Pincho Paxton]

http://fatfist.hubpages.com/hub/Law-of- ... tradictory

Is Law of Identity really irrefutable?

I recently stumbled upon this article:

We hear this claim all the time:

“The Law of Identity A=A (A is A) is self-evident. Each thing is the same as itself. There is no way around it. All of existence depends on it. Without it, you wouldn’t exist, wouldn’t be able to think, wouldn’t be able to talk intelligibly, wouldn’t be able to blah blah.....”

I have been around long enough to see a variety of arguments on this - including the quoted article (which is poorly written). Frankly - too tired to read through all the replies - so I hope this isn't a repeat.

A is A: Aristotle's Law of Identity

Everything that exists has a specific nature. Each entity exists as something in particular and it has characteristics that are a part of what it is.

To me this reads: A (the existent in question) is A (defined by that which characterizes it)

Not: A (an existent - i.e. a bird) = A (an existent - i.e. a bird)

You can quibble over the the structure - A is A, but at least get the meaning right.

From a human point of view...

Everything that exists has a specific nature. Each entity exists as something in particular and it has characteristics that are a part of what it is.

... but surely enlightenment means to see things as they really are? To be enlightened you would be able to see nature as it really is without delusion. And Aristotle was speaking of a delusion.

[Pincho Paxton]

But I don't feel connected to another Galaxy.

Sometimes our feelings get in the way :) All the stuff that the Universe is composed of, is touching
we see through images of the Hubble telescope....galaxies being separated by dark matter[or whatever it is]
but all this stuff is interconnected....as you can see :

http://imgsrc.hubblesite.org/hu/db/imag ... ll_jpg.jpg


Like a blank piece of canvas with a painting on it.

Everything is interconnected by flat lines.. no message. That's the problem. Destructive interference...

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_can_two_w ... _other_out

[Kunga]

Everything is interconnected by flat lines.. no message. That's the problem. Destructive interference...

Yes....i think i follow that ...like when you throw a pebble[destructive interference], into the still water..it ripples then becomes still again...[flat]

:)

[Pincho Paxton]

Everything is interconnected by flat lines.. no message. That's the problem. Destructive interference...

Yes....i think i follow that ...like when you throw a pebble[destructive interference], into the still water..it ripples then becomes still again...[flat]

:)

If two waves meet, and one wave has a peak, and the other wave has a dip then they add up to flat. It works with water, light, anything....

http://astro-canada.ca/_en/a2313.php

1 + -1 = 0

So when you have a flat line between you, and something else, you are not passing a message to each other.