What is your highest ideal?

[Orenholt]

I suppose this could have been posted in "worldly matters" but I figured it had potential for debate.
So, what is your highest ideal?
Is it Beauty? Truth? Justice? Or maybe something else?
Beauty, Truth and Justice are all important to me in a mate. In fact they are the recipe for the perfect mate, however I value Justice in myself the most.
Now, you might be asking, how can you have Justice without Truth?
Well think of the classic example of what you would do if Anne Frank were hiding in your house from the Nazis.
Would you tell the Nazis and be Truthful or would you lie and be Just?

[Kunga]

Good one Orenholt.
Yeah, I would lie too.
I really don't know what my highest Ideal is anymore.....
Truth is up there along with Justice and Honesty...Morality...
But I haven't lived up to those ideals 100% :(
Still....I set my goals high...
I guess you have to have the Wisdom to know how to juggle it.

[Orenholt]

Thanks, and it's ok, Kunga, that you don't know right now. I think with some introspection you will discover your highest ideal.
As long as you're trying your best that is all that anyone can realistically ask for. :)

[Pincho Paxton]

I can't break an ideal down into a single word. Words are chopped up to make sentences. Like an ideal swimming pool would be a drip. You can't swim in a drip, and I can't have an ideal woman who is a single word.

So in a whole set of factors I get a perfect woman...

Blonde
Artistic
Clever
Observant
Happy
Honest
Unique
Stylistic
Submissive
Musical
Talented
Kinky
Medium to Slim
Daring
Interested in History
A Good Cook
Interested in Nature and the Universe

That's a decent list that doesn't break down into one word.

[Orenholt]

Lol Pincho I appreciate the effort and I can see why you were confused but I wanted you to answer what your #1 highest ideal would be for life or for yourself.

[Dan Rowden]

Asking about people's highest ideal on a site dedicated to enlightenment seems a tad redundant.

[Orenholt]

Asking about people's highest ideal on a site dedicated to enlightenment seems a tad redundant.

Perhaps people still have attachments to things other than "enlightenment".
Would you say that since this site is dedicated to enlightenment that all of them value Truth the most?
What about my example?

[Dan Rowden]

If people don't value truth and enlightenment above all else they don't really value them at all. What such a person would be doing here is beyond me.

[Orenholt]

Dan, are you saying that you would tell the Nazi's Anne Frank was in your house?

If not, how do you justify having Truth as your highest ideal when you would lie to the Nazis?

[Cahoot]

Dan, are you saying that you would tell the Nazi's Anne Frank was in your house?

If not, how do you justify having Truth as your highest ideal when you would lie to the Nazis?

Godwin's Law

[Orenholt]

Godwin's Law

Pfft.
So you're using a MEME in order to dodge the question. I'm disappointed in you.
I could just as easily say your argument is invalid.

[Kunga]

yeah...and I was thinking it's just another brand of herd mentality.....it appeals to the upper echelons of the cyber-space eliteists.

[Cahoot]

Let's see. Don Pinchot is confused. Dan is a Nazi sympathizer for valuing truth. I'm disappointing. And yes, you are a woman.

;)

Just funnin.

Kunga, you have the launch code.

[Dan Rowden]

Dan, are you saying that you would tell the Nazi's Anne Frank was in your house?

If not, how do you justify having Truth as your highest ideal when you would lie to the Nazis?

No, I wouldn't tell them, but that sort of "truth" has nothing to do with philosophical Truth. People who conflate the two ideas are really being kind of boofheaded.

[Orenholt]

No, I wouldn't tell them, but that sort of "truth" has nothing to do with philosophical Truth. People who conflate the two ideas are really being kind of boofheaded.

Well maybe I am boofheaded but I would like you to tell me what you think the difference is.
The definition of "truth" is simply "conformity with fact or reality".
It seems that could cover both verbal "truths" and philosophical "Truth".

[Dan Rowden]

If you can't distinguish between Truth as ultimate facts of existence and truth[fullness] as act of conveyance of facts for contingent purposes, then I'm not sure I can help.

[Orenholt]

If you can't distinguish between Truth as ultimate facts of existence and truth[fullness] as act of conveyance of facts for contingent purposes, then I'm not sure I can help.

But how is truth for contingent purposes?
Wouldn't truth[fulness] be about the conveyance of actual facts?
Also I think what you're saying is the difference between honesty and Truth.
But how can you be honest without the facts of existence?

Are you saying there's a difference between facts and "ultimate" facts?
If so I would agree in so far as that regular "facts" are just scientific assumptions of facts.

Maybe what you're really saying here isn't that you value some kind of T/truth but rather logic.
If that is what you're saying then I would have to agree and change my answer to logic as well.

(I feel like I gave that one to you too easily lol)

[SeekerOfWisdom]

The highest ideal is waking up, eating food, experiencing nature, (Including meditation, reading, the outdoors, or whatever one does), eating more food, then going to sleep.

The highest ideal is being realistic and accepting what is, without any delusional drama, otherwise known as "something isn't right".

[Orenholt]

The highest ideal is waking up, eating food, experiencing nature, (Including meditation, reading, the outdoors, or whatever one does), eating more food, then going to sleep.

So your highest ideal is life itself? That's a pretty good one.

[SeekerOfWisdom]

I wouldn't call it 'mine', it is the highest ideal. (Thanks for italics Dan)

I can prove it too, every single one of you lives up to this ideal daily, and whenever you aren't living up to it, you are suffering in some form.

So really, everyone has already reached the 'end goal' which is life, that just isn't realized to be true when we think "there should be something more".

[Orenholt]

I wouldn't call it 'mine', it is the highest ideal. (Thanks for italics Dan)

I can prove it too, every single one of you lives up to this ideal daily, and whenever you aren't living up to it, you are suffering in some form.

Um... if you're aren't living up to the ideal of "Life" then wouldn't that mean that you're dead?

So really, everyone has already reached the 'end goal' which is life, that just isn't realized to be true when we think "there should be something more".

What about people who's lives are bad?
Wouldn't death be an end goal for the suicidal person?

[SeekerOfWisdom]

Reminds me of a quote on 'the ultimate' which really means the highest way of being or highest ideal.

Flow with whatever may happen and let your mind be free. Stay centered by accepting whatever you are doing.
This is the ultimate.
Zhuangzi


I said Life without 'without any delusional drama, otherwise known as "something isn't right".'


Death being the end goal = delusional drama, as I saw quoted before, "There is no difference" between life and death.

[Orenholt]

Ok then I guess I would agree with that then for the most part.

But if the non-delusional life is ideal does that mean that euthanasia is wrong?
Or does the lack of difference between life and death apply to this case but not that of the suicidal person?

[SeekerOfWisdom]

Nothing is wrong. If he wants to die let him die, I might kill myself too if there was unbearable pain, but it is delusional to kill yourself based on emotional suffering which isn't pain. Delusional drama and suffering aren't wrong either, they just aren't idealistic which is clear based on our experience. The highest ideal is what is idealistic isn't it? Life without unnecessary suffering is as idealistic as it gets. Pleasure and desire is avoidable suffering.

[Orenholt]

Life without unnecessary suffering is as idealistic as it gets.

What if the pleasure outweighs the suffering?

Pleasure and desire is avoidable suffering.

Pleasure AND desire is avoidable suffering?
How is pleasure itself suffering?