A friend of mine suggested this forum to me.

[Orenholt]

I'm not entirely sure what the etiquette is here or how I should be posting so I apologize if I step out of line.

For most of my life I had considered things about the nature of the universe on my own rather than simply believing everything I was told. I suppose it's normal and healthy for a child to be skeptical but I found that my "peers" and "authority figures" did not appreciate my enthusiasm for wanting to know the truth about things for myself. In my early childhood I was eager to learn as much as possible until one day a school teacher revealed to me that she didn't really know what she was talking about and was just following what the books had said. At that point I was severely devastated, being that I was only 6 years old. I then realized that I could really only know something for sure if I had the proof myself and it began to further affect my religious beliefs.

Although I wasn't quite old enough to separate fantasy from reality completely I had always questioned the "justice" involved with Christianity. I think I had a firm grasp on right and wrong and a strong sense of fairness for a child. I thought that it was wrong that Jesus had to pay for everyone else's sins and that some people, even if they hadn't sinned, would still go to Hell for not accepting him. At one point I told my parents that I didn't want Jesus to pay for my sins because it wasn't right and that I should have to pay for them myself, even if it meant eternal damnation. I continued to have that self sacrificing sense of justice for many years to come. As I grew older I saw more and more flaws in Christianity and finally it came to the point that I could say that I no longer believed in the stories whatsoever rather than trying to straddle the fence saying that it was all metaphorical. I became a pantheist and made up my own ideals.

I was maybe 13 when I decided that but I didn't let on to my family that I was a non-Christian. My relationship with my family has been an odd one. It seemed the more I "behaved" and did what they said the more they demanded and the more aggressive they became while my younger brother on the other hand mimicked their behavior of aggression and was held in high regard and treated much better than myself. This resulted in me being kicked out of the house at the age of 18 and living with an abusive room mate.

Without going into too much detail they basically screamed at me and gave me the cold shoulder whenever I would think for myself and demanded that I "stop being so negative" accuse me of being "dramatic" whenever they would screw me over. This really messed with my mind since I was basically stuck in this situation for more than a year. I stopped caring about myself and thought "well at least I'm not being hit like I was at my parents' house" until they did start to hit me. Numbly I continued searching for apartments to rent on my own and when this was discovered I was kicked onto the street again.

Then later on I fell madly in love with someone for the first time in my life and so thinking that it would distract me from a life as a leader for the people I rejected their love only to find great remorse. I began doubting all that I knew about myself thinking "is this person more important than my career?" which had been the main focal point of my life until then. So I gave up on both dreams since they would not forgive me. The dream of leading the world in a change for the better and the dream of being with that "special someone" were both gone and so I had nothing tethering me to this world. And it was then I realized I could not even trust myself. It's been a long and difficult process to get to the place where I am now but I would like to get back into thinking about the big picture and living in a non-suicidal state. Not that I am actively suicidal anymore but it always seems like an option somewhere in the back of my mind which makes critical thinking extremely difficult.


This isn't meant to be a sob story or looking for sympathies, merely an introduction to myself and my relationship with philosophy and how it came to be what it is.

[SeekerOfWisdom]

I'm surprised to see how many people actually have suicidal tendencies, the thought has never crossed my mind, so next time you are considering such options just remember me telling you that you are only being childish and ignorant and to dismiss them straight away, to not even recognize it as a possibility.

Next is a little story,

Someone is at work, they get a phone call. They are told they have won the lottery, the phone call sounds official and the person believes it seeing as they actually had a lottery ticket, also the caller knew the very numbers he had picked, which would otherwise be impossible. (Whatever)

He rushes home joyous as fuck, he is dreaming of the future and everything he is going to do with the money.

He finds out there was a mix up, it was an official call, but it wasn't him who won.

He is crushed, depressed for at least the next week.

He went from normal, to joyous, to crushed and depressed, what actually changed?

Only his mindset, only his clinging to an idea.

In reality the only unavoidable negative things that actually happen to a person is physical pain.

You may have been hit and abused and I'm sorry to hear that, but unless the pain was great and lasting, the case is most likely that your suffering was self-caused and originated in your own mind.

It is easy to blame the circumstances, but it is better to realize you don't have to suffer. If you want some new perspective, spend a few hours a day sitting alone outside with nothing but the sun and the grass. Meditate some, watch how the suffering arises in your mind, confront it, get over it.

I'm not sure who recommended this forum to you, but it is about enlightenment, which is the end of suffering, liberation through not clinging. You'll find "clinging" sums up the source of all your suffering.

[Orenholt]

Yes, I would agree that negative emotions are possible to avoid for the most part with the right mindset but I doubt that the change would be instantaneous for anyone who merely acknowledges the truth of that statement alone. I would think that it would take practice to go from one mode of thinking to another. Also, not to be making excuses for myself, I believe that part of my suffering is from my inability to enjoy the good caused by a chemical imbalance. (I would tell you the name of the condition but the servers here do not recognize medical terminology apparently) Never the less I believe that I can overcome this problem with enough thought (and action) put into it.

Are there any suggestions you would make to me as a new member here aside from reading the stickies? (which I have already done)

[Dennis Mahar]

The story looks like an epic hero's journey.

after many a travail a plateau of maturity seems to have been reached.

what's remarkable is an 'integrity' of 'knowing' was never damaged or given up on.

What next?

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Hello Orenholt,

Not that I am actively suicidal anymore but it always seems like an option somewhere in the back of my mind which makes critical thinking extremely difficult.

This one puzzled me a bit. Thinking about suicide is not that uncommon and has some stigma attached these days. It's not like actually carving oneself, is it? Thinking about death in various guises might actually sober one up. In which way it's making thinking difficult for you? Strong emotions normally do that (emotional "blocks" or behaviors, which is not the same as strong feelings). It's the emotion behind the suicidal thought which might block free and critical thinking here. Common here is anger or grudges stored and repeated for too long. But you're the only one who knows. I'm not asking for you to tell, just to think about it for yourself as it might help you to clear up on that.

[Orenholt]

This one puzzled me a bit. Thinking about suicide is not that uncommon and has some stigma attached these days. It's not like actually carving oneself, is it? Thinking about death in various guises might actually sober one up. In which way it's making thinking difficult for you? Strong emotions normally do that (emotional "blocks" or behaviors, which is not the same as strong feelings). It's the emotion behind the suicidal thought which might block free and critical thinking here. Common here is anger or grudges stored and repeated for too long. But you're the only one who knows. I'm not asking for you to tell, just to think about it for yourself as it might help you to clear up on that.

I don't mind sharing. For me it just seems like death is a valid option to end suffering and doesn't seem like that big of a deal. Rather than sobering me up it lulls me into a pseudo-sense of security in the thought "if things get too bad then I can just end it" and thus makes my efforts towards other things crippled. I used to be one of those people that worked best under pressure, but now I don't feel the pressure because I feel I have nothing to lose basically. Having that mentality makes me not care about the outcome and makes me a lazy thinker.

[Dan Rowden]

“The thought of suicide is a great consolation: by means of it one gets through many a dark night.” ― Friedrich Nietzsche

[Diebert van Rhijn]

I used to be one of those people that worked best under pressure, but now I don't feel the pressure because I feel I have nothing to lose basically. Having that mentality makes me not care about the outcome and makes me a lazy thinker.

And some people say that the feeling of "nothing to lose" is the reason they are such active risk takers! My own take on this has to do with assigning meaning and finding purpose. You have challenged and redefined some of the old meanings which gave you sense of purpose and pressure, possibly because you were extremely valuing (or fearing) some element of the work. Now you find yourself perhaps in a lull. But it's my belief the moment you are able to assign meaning to something else, the situation will provide it's own "momentum", meaning it will provide motivation and pressure to do the activity. Just forge enough connections with some direction or idea and I think the whole process with present itself. You might want to raise your general energy level as well to get you over any hump.

[Cahoot]

Punishment mentality is quite pervasive and often irrational.

Punish others, punish yourself, people punishing you for just about anything, for simply living, for the clothes you wear, for the expression on your face, for the things you say and do no matter what you say or do, in a myriad of ways and degrees of intensity.

Once you become rationally aware of the paradigm as it unfolds in the present all around you, stepping outside the boundaries that define the paradigm becomes easier, and a way of tapping into energy. Gauging illogical behaviors by this touchstone of punishment mentality begins to reveal the particulars of why people, including yourself, must punish, which leads to understanding particular causes of punishment mentality, acceptance without the need to punish in return, without the need to be punished. Compassion.

Rational knowing won't end the punishment mentality but it does lead to detachment, equanimity, and a life where basic functioning doesn't seize up as often, if at all.

[Dennis Mahar]

Rational knowing won't end the punishment mentality but it does lead to detachment, equanimity, and a life where basic functioning doesn't seize up as often, if at all.

gathering up these momentary affective incidents reveals a motionless condition.
the song remains the same.
Spirit is and these body/mind machines merely exist.
To exist, from the Latin ex sistere, meaning emanations of Spirit.
Such an understanding prompted Socrates in his declaration, 'you can kill me and never harm me'.
to be rational (in perspective) is to 'Let go' and be open to Absolute thought.

[Orenholt]

Punishment mentality is quite pervasive and often irrational.

Are you saying that in reference to my desire for pressure or my statement that as a child I would accept whatever "righteous punishment" I was due?


I don't think that punishment is necessary to the function of a society but it definitely ups the stakes for me personally (or at least it did). Not that I'd say that it was a "punishment" exactly that I was worrying about, it was more like the logical consequence of my actions down the road. For example, getting fat from eating a ton of cake isn't a punishment, it's just the caused effect, even if it is a negative one.

[Cahoot]

Punishment mentality is quite pervasive and often irrational.

Are you saying that in reference to my desire for pressure or my statement that as a child I would accept whatever "righteous punishment" I was due?


I don't think that punishment is necessary to the function of a society but it definitely ups the stakes for me personally (or at least it did). Not that I'd say that it was a "punishment" exactly that I was worrying about, it was more like the logical consequence of my actions down the road. For example, getting fat from eating a ton of cake isn't a punishment, it's just the caused effect, even if it is a negative one.

I'm saying that punishment mentality is quite pervasive and often irrational. Mostly casual. Ex: Get a haircut, get a job, fatso. How that relates to your own life is for you to determine in your own rational, or irrational way. Any rational explanation for schadenfreude would be as convoluted as a bowl of spaghetti, yet people you don't even know who function from a punishment mentality will still find pleasure in your misfortunes, and a number of those functioning from a punishment mentality will find pleasure in adding to them in their own small way.

Parental punishment has a more rational motive, though the effectiveness is questionable and can best be evaluated in the context of each specific situation.

[Orenholt]

I'm saying that punishment mentality is quite pervasive and often irrational. Mostly casual. Ex: Get a haircut, get a job, fatso. How that relates to your own life is for you to determine in your own rational, or irrational way. Any rational explanation for schadenfreude would be as convoluted as a bowl of spaghetti, yet people you don't even know who function from a punishment mentality will still find pleasure in your misfortunes, and a number of those functioning from a punishment mentality will find pleasure in adding to them in their own small way.

Parental punishment has a more rational motive, though the effectiveness is questionable and can best be evaluated in the context of each specific situation.

Oh yes, I would definitely agree.

And some people say that the feeling of "nothing to lose" is the reason they are such active risk takers! My own take on this has to do with assigning meaning and finding purpose. You have challenged and redefined some of the old meanings which gave you sense of purpose and pressure, possibly because you were extremely valuing (or fearing) some element of the work. Now you find yourself perhaps in a lull. But it's my belief the moment you are able to assign meaning to something else, the situation will provide it's own "momentum", meaning it will provide motivation and pressure to do the activity. Just forge enough connections with some direction or idea and I think the whole process with present itself. You might want to raise your general energy level as well to get you over any hump.

I have definitely become more of a risk taker since I first felt there was nothing to lose. Not all of it was healthy but some of it has become so. I have started to speak up for myself more often and have even tried being more social and taking part in social events such as dance clubs where as I would have been far too self conscious to do so before. Yes, I would say that being more physically active would help my situation too.

[Cahoot]

I'm saying that punishment mentality is quite pervasive and often irrational. Mostly casual. Ex: Get a haircut, get a job, fatso. How that relates to your own life is for you to determine in your own rational, or irrational way. Any rational explanation for schadenfreude would be as convoluted as a bowl of spaghetti, yet people you don't even know who function from a punishment mentality will still find pleasure in your misfortunes, and a number of those functioning from a punishment mentality will find pleasure in adding to them in their own small way.

Parental punishment has a more rational motive, though the effectiveness is questionable and can best be evaluated in the context of each specific situation.

Oh yes, I would definitely agree.

And some people say that the feeling of "nothing to lose" is the reason they are such active risk takers! My own take on this has to do with assigning meaning and finding purpose. You have challenged and redefined some of the old meanings which gave you sense of purpose and pressure, possibly because you were extremely valuing (or fearing) some element of the work. Now you find yourself perhaps in a lull. But it's my belief the moment you are able to assign meaning to something else, the situation will provide it's own "momentum", meaning it will provide motivation and pressure to do the activity. Just forge enough connections with some direction or idea and I think the whole process with present itself. You might want to raise your general energy level as well to get you over any hump.

I have definitely become more of a risk taker since I first felt there was nothing to lose. Not all of it was healthy but some of it has become so. I have started to speak up for myself more often and have even tried being more social and taking part in social events such as dance clubs where as I would have been far too self conscious to do so before. Yes, I would say that being more physically active would help my situation too.

On the flip side, if you determine that someone is directing their punishment mentality towards you, and the determination affects you emotionally by motivating a retaliatory reaction of punishment mentality or a stifled desire to retaliate against the perpetrator, then a fundamental enquiry is: who is feeling punished, and why should the actions of another be accepted and thus validated as punishment? The answer to the enquiry is, one's sense of identity is that which feels punished, which leads to an enquiry into the nature of identity, why and how one's identity is affected. For example, if you consider yourself to be a genius, or enlightened, or intelligent, or the possessor of some unique/rare knowledge, and you assert that identity, and you feel attacked when someone challenges or questions that assertion, the enquiry is: who is feeling attacked?

[HUNTEDvsINVIS]

That's a very sad story, Orenholt. I went through a suicidal phase when I was younger. I have a cat now, however, and so suicide is no longer an option.