The Box

[mwolf]

I experienced the naked universe a few years ago while under the influence of Salvia divininorum. I cannot convey my experience, as we have no basis for conversation as you yourself have not experienced the naked universe. I can however convey the antithesis and result of my experience.

What I discovered is that we, that is to say, that which we know of and recognize as ourselves - our mind, our consciousness - is in a box, and that box has only five sensors to tell us what's outside.

I later realized that we may be able to leave this box and exist without the box. I believe it can be achieved with practice in this existence.

[Dan Rowden]

You experienced dissociation under the influence of a hallucinogen and you think it indicated something real? You might want to re-think that inference.

[mwolf]

You experienced dissociation under the influence of a hallucinogen and you think it indicated something real? You might want to re-think that inference.

Fallacy here.

Salvia divinorum is not a hallucinogen. It does not cause audio or visual disturbances. It does not create spurious images. Salvinorin A, the active principle in Salvia divinorum is a very powerful, very specific molecule with a very specific action: it is a kappa-receptor antagonist. Antagonization of the kappa receptor is a factor in dreaming. I do not recall the specific role as indicated in the literature, but I can tell you from experience that it puts you in a state wherein you have waking dreams. I have taken the perspective of myself in the past, of personalities long-forgotten. I have taken the perspective of inanimate objects. And I have even taken the perspective of concepts. I have experienced bizzare dreams, traveled to the past, and changed form even. But I have also divined answers to questions (no, I was not on Salvia when I attained enlightenment).

When I experienced the universe from outside my sensory experience; there was no doubt in my mind what had happened. I have worked with Salvia divinorum for years, learning it, learning myself, learning how to tease out exactly the kind of effects I want, and learning to determine what is dream and what is reality. Salvia divinorum is one of the most important plants to humanity, and it is wildly misunderstood. I firmly believe in the therapeutic values of the plant, as docu-mented in the use by the native Mexican people in Oaxaca where it is used as a divining tool. Salvia divinorum, when used properly and by an experienced practitioner, can reveal answers to baffling questions because it allows complete focus of the mind on non-sensory data. Your senses are ignored and your experience becomes internal. You experience those random thoughts in your head. But with focus and experience, you can seek out and concentrate on specific thoughts or create new ones to be answered. Salvia divinorum allows you to have full access to your memories without interference by more powerful processes that may have been inadvertantly trained into your mind.

Notice, by the way, that I do not claim that experiencing the naked universe was enlightenment. Only a part of me experienced it - or perhaps realized what it was like from having figured it out based on empirical data that was processed and held in the back of my mind. And since my conscious mind did not experience it, I did not achieve enlightenment as to the nature of the universe. I basically got my feet wet and no more.



Please, again, do not judge me from your perspective if you can help it. It is an issue that I have a difficult time dealing with. I guess as long as you can handle my response, I don't mind unintentional; but if it gets to be harassing, I will leave the board. My life is quite difficult, this forum is a way for me to relieve some of my misery. I would be grateful if that could be respected.

Thank you.

[Dan Rowden]

Really, if you're going to take drugs to see the universe naked you should at least buy it dinner first. And I'll struggle to take you seriously if you want to outright deny that your sagely sage is not an hallucinogen.

[SeekerOfWisdom]

What are you sad about?

We are in a sense, here to help. In a very indirect way, it may take some time to become accustom to.

[Cahoot]

Notice, by the way, that I do not claim that experiencing the naked universe was enlightenment. Only a part of me experienced it - or perhaps realized what it was like from having figured it out based on empirical data that was processed and held in the back of my mind. And since my conscious mind did not experience it, I did not achieve enlightenment as to the nature of the universe. I basically got my feet wet and no more.

Good man (wooman?).

Salvia is useful for weakening assumptions. So is food, which powerfully affects the endocrine system. Like the rigid confines of Shakespeare's use of iambic pentameter, the boundary of the box is the necessary gateway to transcending the box. The assumption of a boxless life can easily turn one into a slob.

"Awareness, on the other hand, arises from a state of knowledge which the individual him or herself possesses. Because of this, laws and rules sometimes correspond to the inherent awareness of the individual, and sometimes do not. However, if one has awareness, it is possible to overcome the situation of being bound by compulsion to follow rules and laws. Not only is this so, but an individual who has awareness and keeps it stably present is also capable of living in peace under all the rules and laws there are in the world, without being in any way conditioned by them."
- Rinpoche

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Hi mwolf, I'm somewhat familiar with the salvia experiment. But like all entheogens, it opens up just as much as it closes. You are wrong however to claim that it does not create visual disturbances. When the eyes are open, perspectives can become severely twisted. Like a wall might close in to the point that you feel it pressing against yourself. Or it suddenly seems removed for miles. One can shift center and feel like one is a spot on the wall looking down upon everything else. I'd call that definitely visual disturbance in the category of hallucinations, although those not are only one type of Salvia effects but I think quite common. You speak of deeper trips but they do not sound different than many other substances. Although one can wonder if it doesn't mess with basic rationality and memory function.

I know Terence McKenna was always very hesitant towards salvia for those reasons I think. What do you think of DMT? There's this article which puts DMT in a proper perspective: The Case Against DMT Elves. I wonder if a similar case could be made against Salvia trips.

What you are describing so far doesn't sound different from many other entheogenics, even just XTC can do that, simply because an overly restrained and tight up mind is exposed to raw imagination and intuition. It's perhaps related to religious trips when the temporal lobe is affected for example by a fever or infection. But it's a long way from reality still. The question remains how to bring ones "treasures" back to the surface. It's relatively easy to remain drifting in the surf I suppose with all these "answers" but no one listening.

[mwolf]

Good man (wooman?).

Salvia is useful for weakening assumptions. So is food, which powerfully affects the endocrine system. Like the rigid confines of Shakespeare's use of iambic pentameter, the boundary of the box is the necessary gateway to transcending the box. The assumption of a boxless life can easily turn one into a slob.

- Rinpoche[/i]

Yes, my mind is ruled by emotions, at times. But no, I am not permanently afflicted. I am a man, I just have a damaged brain that sometimes takes on female follies (no offense to those women out there not so programmed by cultural propaganda as to be non-functional as human beings...)

And that you for pointing out what I couldn't articulate: Salvia, like dreams, tears down your inhibitions, your preconceived notions. In short, Salvia divinorum takes away your ability to take anything for granted and to have any preconceived notions. You are thrust out of your selfish pathetic programmed worldly perspective and forced to deal with reality as it presents itself to us. But yes, because it is a drug, because it is an artificial stimulation; the mind, the conscious mind that is, and especially the personality, cannot deal with what Salvia divinorum shows us. Only through discipline can one achieve the control necessary to gain control and work with Salvia divinorum in a productive manner.


I achieved mastery of Salvia divinorum without being taught. I later achieved two levels of enlightenment. I have long been reasoning at near-universal ethics and attained it a year ago with my first enlightenment.

What I have achieved amazes me beyond description. I had found peace, but being constantly bombarded with hateful discrediting at the hands of people around me, especially while I am afflicted with these psychological issues, simply tears my spirit apart. Why is it so difficult for people to accept that someone has achieved what they claim to be attempting to achieve? Why do you have to take my having attained my potential as an attack?


I don't remember who offhand, but someone on here accused me of having an ego. I think that when someone is intimidated so heavily by one who has achieved such levels of human potential; that it can only be ego which causes the person to attack the one who achieved more.

I wish I weren't so affected by it, but being an empathetic person, I have no choice. I would not have been able to achieve what I had without being sensitive to how people perceive of and treat me.

[mwolf]

Really, if you're going to take drugs to see the universe naked you should at least buy it dinner first. And I'll struggle to take you seriously if you want to outright deny that your sagely sage is not an hallucinogen.

I cannot lend any degree of credibility to a person who refuses to do simple research on readily available materials which can easily confirm my statements. Salvinorin A is not a hallucinogen. It is a kappa-receptor antagonist. Calling Salvia divinorum a hallucinogen is like calling Praxil, Lithium, and other anti-psychotics and similar drugs hallucinogens.

Hallucinogens are actually a very narrow class of substances. A hallucination is also very clearly and specifically defined. In point of fact, despite having taken LSD and psylocibin mushrooms in the past, I have not had true hallucinations (likely because I never took sufficient doses.) I don't like hallucinations and my mind refuses to allow them. I have had two hallucinations in my life and both were the result of my brain damage, and were simply very minor visual disturbances.



For one who claims to be a leader among those seeking enlightenment; you sure seem to have an incredible ego.

Might I suggest watching "Revolver" until you get it?

No offense is intended here. "Revolver" is an incredibly good resource for training the mind to recognize and dispense with the ego. And ego is a significant, in fact the most significant impediment to enlightenment and genius.

You can either accept my words as advice from one who has attained what you seek; or you can listen with your ego and deliberately choose the opposite of my advice out of spite as your ego wishes you to do. I assure you that your ego does not seek enlightenment, for enlightenment is, in part, destruction of the ego.


I now understand why Monks wear robes... I shall endeavor to find robes, snap a picture, and create an appropriate avatar so that your ego can see I mean no harm in communicating my knowledge to you.

[mwolf]

What are you sad about?

We are in a sense, here to help. In a very indirect way, it may take some time to become accustom to.

I don't do well accepting help from egos. Given that enlightenment destroys the ego and little else can (except for a strong path to enlightenment, which recognizes the ego as an impediment to enlightenment), I guess I am going to have to wait to discuss what goes on in my mind until I find a suitable audience, or can attain the training I need to overcome ego.

[Russell Parr]

Your ego doesn't do well accepting help from others. Your fear of criticism is an egotistical attachment to your notion of enlightenment. You should take any fear of having your ideals attacked as an indication that you don't know your stuff as well as you might think you do. There is a lot to learn, especially outside of drug experiences. It may serve you better to lurk around more for a while if you're still afraid of confrontation. Watch some of Dan's videos, I think they would change your mind about him.

I later realized that we may be able to leave this box and exist without the box. I believe it can be achieved with practice in this existence.

Just because you experienced a dissociation from the senses doesn't mean that your consciousness wasn't dependent on your body. The very fact that the experience included your body being there before and after the taking of drugs is direct evidence that your consciousness relies on the human experience.

I enjoy the movie "Revolver" by the way. Although more entertaining than it is enlightening, it does a decent job at explaining egotism. The movie "Fearless" is pretty good too in that regard.

[Dan Rowden]

Really, if you're going to take drugs to see the universe naked you should at least buy it dinner first. And I'll struggle to take you seriously if you want to outright deny that your sagely sage is not an hallucinogen.

I cannot lend any degree of credibility to a person who refuses to do simple research on readily available materials which can easily confirm my statements. Salvinorin A is not a hallucinogen.

You should tell this to the researchers at the University of North Carolina and Scripps Research Foundation.

It is a kappa-receptor antagonist. Calling Salvia divinorum a hallucinogen is like calling Praxil, Lithium, and other anti-psychotics and similar drugs hallucinogens.

Then tell that to the various scientists who call it an hallucinogen. You know, when you see things that aren't there under its influence (and yes, this does in fact happen), you are hallucinating. In general, I have no interest in the generation of altered states of consciousness. They are dangerous. Sure, they can be useful in some respects, such as opening one's mind to the ephemeral nature of Reality and Salvia may be helpful in that particular sense, but beyond that altered states can produce attachment to some ridiculous inferences people draw as a result of them. Mexican "shaman" have been chomping Salvia down for a very long time, yet I see no signs of wisdom in them whatsoever. Do Mexicans have some sort of collective wisdom that I'm not aware of?

The only altered state I recommend is reason itself. And, yes, for most people it actually does constitute an altered state. Substance induced altered states are completely unnecessary for the purpose of examining the nature of Reality and more often than not a path to bat-shit craziness.

[SeekerOfWisdom]

mwolf

Who is attacking you?

You keep talking about the destruction of ego as if we've never heard these terms, a lot of the people on this forum, including both Dan and Dennis who you have been calling egotistical, are enlightened, what you have done is had very out of the ordinary experiences, you used drugs to do that.

We frown upon such use because we can have those experiences without the use of drugs and drugs only inhibit clear thinking and understanding of such experiences.

If you believe your mind is somehow so special that no one else can comprehend what you've seen then you are going to get stuck. For example, we have all most likely flown around the universe, 'traveled through time', seen from impossible perspectives, and conceived of things in our mind (real experiences, literally being there) just through the use of visualization. I know I have, I can do it on a whim.

So then what makes you so special that everyone else is wrong while your right?

Cause you took that drug? I know people who have taken the same drug and explained very similar effects.

These are all things that can be done without any drugs.

Or is it because you are enlightened...You are aware that you only know of that word because people were enlightened before you right?