To what degree can we weed out our delusions on reality?

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
Elizabeth Isabelle
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To what degree can we weed out our delusions on reality?

Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

In another thread,
bluerap wrote:'exactly to what degree can we weed out our delusions on reality?'
(Sorry I couldn't fit the word "exactly" into the title due to title length limitations.)

First, let's put some parameters around "reality." It is not possible to know where every stone in the universe is, etc., so let's make the outside wall of our discourse that a person should know that they can not know every bit of minutia about the whole universe. A person can only at best know their own experience of reality, and recognizing that fact is the first step to being delusion-free. Keeping that in mind at all times would be our second step to being delusion-free. It is only possible to know the basic truths of reality. I realize that by putting parameters around "reality" could be taken as the fallacy of begging the question, so let me defend my position.

You might ask how I know that no one can know every bit of minutia about the universe rather than hold that as a delusion. I rely on rational thought, which is composed of logic and good reasoning skills, to determine this. This also matches my personal experience of reality - though I know that I have not met, much less experienced, every person in the universe. Personal experience can not be used as a defining character or it would be the fallacy of hasty generalization, but it can be a limiting character as having found one exception to "none" would invalidate the proposal.

We might also use the "brain in a vat" argument to propose that none of what we experience is real in an objective sense, but by knowing that all we can know is our own experience of reality, we take that into account and recognize that everything is subjective in a philosophical sense.

You may have been looking for more mundane delusions and looking for an actual percentage. I believe that within the parameters earlier set forth, it is possible to be 100% delusion-free. This does not mean that the delusion-free person can always tell when someone is lying to them (although keeping in mind that the person they are talking with could be lying or otherwise presenting a false picture would reduce the chance of being fooled) but they are simply not under the delusion that they can not be fooled.
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Dan Rowden
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Re: To what degree can we weed out our delusions on reality?

Post by Dan Rowden »

Great question, Elizabeth. I wonder though how much we'll have to stipulate in terms of the nature and source of delusion to address it. Shall we run with the ego/ignorance paradigm as something thus stipulated to facilitate the discussion?
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Pincho Paxton
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Re: To what degree can we weed out our delusions on reality?

Post by Pincho Paxton »

I think that you can know reality 100%, all of it. Reality is holes, and fillers. That's all there is. The fillers make a circle which makes a hole, and the hole makes the fillers circle the hole to create a filler. So they create each other. So now you have 100% reality with no loose ends.
Elizabeth Isabelle
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Re: To what degree can we weed out our delusions on reality?

Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

Dan Rowden wrote:Great question, Elizabeth. I wonder though how much we'll have to stipulate in terms of the nature and source of delusion to address it. Shall we run with the ego/ignorance paradigm as something thus stipulated to facilitate the discussion?

Yes Dan, ignorance of the truth and the blockade that the ego sets up against wisdom are the basis of delusion, so that is a good stipulation.
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Dan Rowden
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Re: To what degree can we weed out our delusions on reality?

Post by Dan Rowden »

Ok cool. Based on that I would ask the opening question: if it possible to divest oneself of any delusion at all, with respect to self and reality, how could it be that it's unreasonable to extrapolate that to all delusions? If one were to take the view that it's not possible to be rid of our delusions entirely, one would need to show why and which particular delusions are too difficult to remove. The funny thing is that there aren't that many to deal with. They're all wrapped up in the same core pieces of ignorance - almost entirely to do with inherency and duality. The real challenge lies in the process of fully incorporating one's understanding and insight into one's consciousness, such that one no longer merely has an understanding and applies it, but is that understanding. Unfortunately, the way the brain is constructed presents one difficulty in that goal, since compartmentalisation is such a significant feature of brain physiology and compartmentalisation is a force that is difficult to just will out of existence. It's so much a part of how we function psychologically and indeed part of the barrier to human development in a spiritual sense.

Anyway, I've just realised I've not taken my life saving drugs this morning, so it's breakfast time. Back with more soon, Bejeebus willing.
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Russell Parr
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Re: To what degree can we weed out our delusions on reality?

Post by Russell Parr »

Thank you, Elizabeth, for taking my question into consideration and presenting more thoughts on the matter. I agree with everything you said, so I can't think of much of a response to it for now, other than to expand on a minor detail if I may (I think it is relevant to Dan's point as well):
Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:You might ask how I know that no one can know every bit of minutia about the universe rather than hold that as a delusion. I rely on rational thought, which is composed of logic and good reasoning skills, to determine this. This also matches my personal experience of reality - though I know that I have not met, much less experienced, every person in the universe. Personal experience can not be used as a defining character or it would be the fallacy of hasty generalization, but it can be a limiting character as having found one exception to "none" would invalidate the proposal.
I would contend that we can get more specific by using "consciousness" instead of "person" here (where bolded and underlined) to make a stronger, more accurate point. The word 'consciousness' has a bit more of an ambiguous connotation in its relation to 'host'. Using the word 'person' tends brings more of a human element to it, which can tend to be stricken down into meaning an 'emotional experience' by those who are not used to recognizing that experience can only truly be had through consciousness.

I believe that asserting this contrast between 'consciousness' and 'host' in this context can be helpful in identifying and separating the delusional ego from our reasoning selves.

Another point is that the very definition of consciousness specifically implies the duality of knowing/not knowing or perceiving/not perceiving. For the word to have any meaning, it must imply the reality of unconsciousness (the result of egotism) in opposition to consciousness.

I hope this came through clearly?

My name is Russell, by the way (my formal introduction to the forum, for what it's worth). Dan, I'd like to have my username changed to my name, if you don't mind. I'll place my current username in my signature for a while, so others may recognize me.

(Dan posted just as I was about to, but I'll go ahead and share what I had to say.)
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Pincho Paxton
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Re: To what degree can we weed out our delusions on reality?

Post by Pincho Paxton »

If you are talking about what's really out there then consciousness is a bad place to start. Consciousness has had millions of years to evolve. For example.. if you asked in 20 million years, what's really is a computer? You would be looking at a thinking machine, and trying to figure out how it thinks. Nowadays with a ZX81 or even a PC we know how simple a computer really is. You need to forget consciousness, and just think of physical interactions. You need to break the Universe down to an state of the simplest tasks that make everything work. And that is just holes, and fillers.
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Dan Rowden
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Re: To what degree can we weed out our delusions on reality?

Post by Dan Rowden »

I don't want to take this thread off on a needless tangent, but Pincho, is the Universe finite or Infinite?
Elizabeth Isabelle
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Re: To what degree can we weed out our delusions on reality?

Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

Thank you Russell. I did hesitate on that word, choosing it instead of the word "human" to broaden the meaning to something more all-encompassing. I'm not sure that "consciousness" is the right word either though as there is only one universal consciousness, and it is the individual's experience of that universal consciousness that brings forth enlightenment.

I like your point of separating consciousness from host as a means of identifying and separating the delusional ego from our reasoning selves, but in that particular sentence I was referring to individual beings, consciousness and carcass included, that I have not experienced as no one can really get inside the head of another.

Is there a word for the amount of consciousness experienced by an individual? I would like to say "spirit" but that has too many other connotations.
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: To what degree can we weed out our delusions on reality?

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Caught you Dan!
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Dan Rowden
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Re: To what degree can we weed out our delusions on reality?

Post by Dan Rowden »

Caught me at what? Are we playing tiggy?
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: To what degree can we weed out our delusions on reality?

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Sorry for interrupting you, someone should really address Pincho, I don't have the heart.
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Dan Rowden
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Re: To what degree can we weed out our delusions on reality?

Post by Dan Rowden »

You don't have the heart; I don't really have the stomach.
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Jamesh
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Re: To what degree can we weed out our delusions on reality?

Post by Jamesh »

[I'm not sure that "consciousness" is the right word either though as there is only one universal consciousness]

I cannot fathom why that statement is not a result of delusion.

Consciousness is clearly an emergent property. All things are emergent properties.

===============================================================================================

On another thread Seeker wrote the following and I started to draft a response, but decided not to post anything after looking at what Dan said earlier on that thread :
Luckily there is nothing but what is seen of the mind, your form is only an experience of consciousness, it is not the source of your consciousness. There is no beginning or end, life and death are natural experiences in the "wheel of existence“, but they are only experiences.
Just because you have a lack of memory you think this is your only existence.
Dan wrote:
It's conventially true; it's a valid enough empirical model. It can't be ultimately true, of course, because all empirical models have an artificial cut off point. Even the chemical processes that appear to give rise to thought themselves have causes that are directly connected. Ultimately, thoughts, like all things, are determined by Reality. The only valid answer to the question: What causes [insert whatever]? is Reality (or, not-that-thing). There can be no other completely true answer. Anything less is merely a contingent empirical model of causation that may or may not have practical value. But at a practical level there's no reason to suppose any aspect of consciousness is not an emergent property of specific physical states and therefore does not survive after death.

That said, consciousness itself in not an emergent property of a thing, or a self. Consciousnesses is merely the totality of that which appears. Consciousness is its content and nothing else. Thoughts are just appearances arising within consciousness. That, however, does not mean they are at all times chaotic and all the things you wants to characterise them as being. Sometimes they are of a different type, a different variety, a different species. What we call rational, logical, coherent, consistent. To deny this species of thought exists is to deny an obvious part of reality.
What I was going to say:

Consciousness is just like any other named thing. It is due to the creation of additional thingness that comes from the wholeness of connected forms.

The layering of form, as in the number and internal complexity of its distinct parts, produces an exponential affect on the range of potential appearances (properties).

It is not the sum of the form of individual parts, but the existence flow that is created from the interconnectedness and interrelationship of those parts.

• A car can be viewed as a thing that transports, to a dog it might be “a thing that gives shade”, to a spider “a thing that is a home”.

• For us one eye is enough for eyesight, but two enables an ability to measure distance so much better.

• 1 million water atoms in a roof gutter may not flow due to surface tension, but add one more drop and the whole may change form and begin to flow.

Consciousness in all life forms requires memory. Consciousness arises due to the ability of animal minds to experience the past in the present.

A lizard knows what a rock is by recognition, by past experience, it can measure it’s size, shape and location and make decisions about to go around it or perhaps to laze on it etc. It is the same for all things our awareness encounters. Memory based naming/identifying is required.

Without memory, phenomenon may be felt but you would not be able to do anything about it other than react instinctively, automatically with the required reaction to X factors replicated in genes.

The very act of thought itself requires memory.

To gather a concept into ones current conscious state takes time as the mind works out what to present to you, and it needs to store the sub-concept units in the brains temporary memory drive, until they are constructed into a Thought data string/stream and thus ready to be sent to the frontal lobes for valuing and comparison to the learnt "expectation" routines of the ego.

Like a page serving a king, the subconscious mind premeditates the retrieval of names/qualia-recognition, sorts each into a coherent stream (again needing memory to store packets of info) and passes it into the frontal lobes as things are observed or considered, and is preparing to send to fetch other indexed details from memory.

Without this, just what would be left for consciousness to do?

Without consciousness via the ego feeling it is self-possessing, that what it experiences is for the purpose of oneself, which is also just a thing of memory - what would be left for it?

I don’t see why people who believe in some form of universal consciousness or life force find any merit in that, even outside the lack of evidence. If one could not recall anything it would seem utterly pointless to me, the same result as total death.
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Jamesh
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Re: To what degree can we weed out our delusions on reality?

Post by Jamesh »

Just being silly...and mildly insane (nothing rational to be found here)

The name Dan is of Hebrew origin, and the meaning of Dan is "judge; God is my judge", so says the web.

We could measure our degree of non-delusionalism using the GO or Martial arts "Dan" rankings, with Dan the Man as our measuring stick.

“Traditionally, the level of go players has been defined using kyu and dan ranks. Kyu ranks are considered student ranks, whilst dan ranks are considered master ranks”.

For enlightees (kyu), God is viewed as something or everything that is not them. Thus they expect an external judge.
For enlighteners (Dans), they are a manifestation of god, they are within god and judging is an internal matter or indeed pointless.

For God to judge it must have something other than itself to judge. So it fits that Dan could be the master judge of others, making them happy for this external source of judgment and fulfilling his parents prophetic name selection.

We'd reverse the scale though a 10th Level Dan or super black belt, would actually apply to the least enlightened, with the belts being "belt around the ear".
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Pincho Paxton
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Re: To what degree can we weed out our delusions on reality?

Post by Pincho Paxton »

Dan Rowden wrote:I don't want to take this thread off on a needless tangent, but Pincho, is the Universe finite or Infinite?
The Universe is infinite, and has always been infinite. The Big Bang never happened. When Einstein came up with the Big Bang he made a few mistakes. If you put all of the particles outside of the hole instead you have the Universe the right way around. Now you might think that all things need to have a beginning, and an end, but that's because you see all things with a beginning, and an end, and never travel in one direction forever. If you did try to travel in one direction forever you would get to particles that spin you too fast to pass through like a super fast waterfall. But beyond that spin is another Universe, so you still haven't reached the end.
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Dan Rowden
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Re: To what degree can we weed out our delusions on reality?

Post by Dan Rowden »

Um, Einstein had nothing to do with the development of Big Bang cosmology and never, in fact, accepted it. He thought it was silly. But I'm glad you recognise that the Universe has always been Infinite. That's so important, because thinking it was once finite, then became infinite (or vise versa) would be a teeny weeny bit sad.
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Kunga
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Re: To what degree can we weed out our delusions on reality?

Post by Kunga »

Dan Rowden wrote:Um, Einstein had nothing to do with the development of Big Bang cosmology and never, in fact, accepted it. He thought it was silly. But I'm glad you recognise that the Universe has always been Infinite. That's so important, because thinking it was once finite, then became infinite (or vise versa) would be a teeny weeny bit sad.

I think it's sad that people think they know.
I think it's not possible to know how or why or when the "Universe" began .
How is it possible to know ?
Can you proove it ?
No.
It's all theory.
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Pincho Paxton
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Re: To what degree can we weed out our delusions on reality?

Post by Pincho Paxton »

Kunga wrote:
Dan Rowden wrote:Um, Einstein had nothing to do with the development of Big Bang cosmology and never, in fact, accepted it. He thought it was silly. But I'm glad you recognise that the Universe has always been Infinite. That's so important, because thinking it was once finite, then became infinite (or vise versa) would be a teeny weeny bit sad.

I think it's sad that people think they know.
I think it's not possible to know how or why or when the "Universe" began .
How is it possible to know ?
Can you proove it ?
No.
It's all theory.
You can prove it yes, but you need a powerful computer to create the Universe completely from scratch. Then that would prove it. I was writing the program myself, but no computer can run it for many years.
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: To what degree can we weed out our delusions on reality?

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Kunga wrote: I think it's sad that people think they know.
You are very wise Kunga. Only those still clinging to self cling to thinking they know.
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Dan Rowden
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Re: To what degree can we weed out our delusions on reality?

Post by Dan Rowden »

And you know this. Clinger. I shall hereby refer to you as Corporal.
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: To what degree can we weed out our delusions on reality?

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

"Clinger", nice ego call out.

I know what presuming to know looks like, I only know a few things. There is no contention between gentlemen General.
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Jamesh
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Re: To what degree can we weed out our delusions on reality?

Post by Jamesh »

But I'm glad you recognise that the Universe has always been Infinite.
Infinite in what way?

Infinite as a process - Yes

As the universe at any point of time is all that is/exists at that point of time with no “outside” then it is infinite in that sense. I’d class that as being infinite internally – turtles within turtles.

But my view is that the universe is constantly growing, and this growth process binds via overlaying what already exists, so the universe of yesterday is spatially lesser than that of today making it not truly infinite spatially.

I cannot cope with the idea that were the universe spatially infinite that that would by necessity mean there is an infinity of all current existing forms (such as exact replicas of myself and every experience I had) as logic would suggest would be the outcome of infinity without any form of end or boundary.

To my knowledge the QRS never address this issue. Meaning they are uncertain of what infinity means.

Where does causality come from Dan, what powers the universe? Does your conceptualisation of infinity have multiple inherent properties such as expansion and contraction forces that enable dualistic manifestation?
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Jamesh
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Re: To what degree can we weed out our delusions on reality?

Post by Jamesh »

The Big Bang never happened
A big bang of a non-singularity variety may have for our observable section of the universe – as in the whole space-time plane or bubble we live within (singularities being fantasy).

Of course, what happens at the macro level also happens at the micro level, so the offending word is “The”. The explosion of an atom in the sun is a big bang to me.

Were there a macro big bang in our observed universe then it is important to note that it was a configuration change – as caused by internal pressure fracturing the singular duality of inside-outside order of the Time plane (as a “container”). It was a division from one to many, as is the nature of the devolution of all forms of thingness – when they break they break into parts and the preceding semi-static form disappears and spreads out quickly. Big bangs enable the evolution of emergent properties via exponentially increasing interconnection possibilities/opportunities.

This process is very much like a singularity but without the pre-singularity nothingness where causality has been abandoned. Another problem with the big bang/singularity business is that it lacks recognition of the ongoing nature of this process - they do not recognise the post-big bang growth of everything and all the zillions of resulting little big bangs.
Elizabeth Isabelle
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Re: To what degree can we weed out our delusions on reality?

Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

Jamesh wrote:[I'm not sure that "consciousness" is the right word either though as there is only one universal consciousness]

I cannot fathom why that statement is not a result of delusion.

Consciousness is clearly an emergent property. All things are emergent properties.
You contradicted yourself here. If all things are emergent properties, then they are all part of the whole. One universal consciousness and being an emergent property are not mutually exclusive.
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