I, Unidian, "Naturyl," James Quirk, am a popcorn maker.

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: I, Unidian, "Naturyl," James Quirk, am a popcorn maker.

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Russell wrote:Well look what we have here.. he admits that 'reasoning' is part of the Edifice, the object of his opposition. The word fits quite well, doesn't it?
.... 4)Cry victim and at times run away when the issue gets too real, and he is confronted to the point of admitting!
Hi Russell! It's interesting to see it in action this way, isn't it. But there's one step further with this and it has to do with one very particular aspect of reasoning which acted as the Edifice and the Objection in this case. That aspect of reason sits in the Latin stem: ratio which leads to reckoning, accounting, measurement and so on. It's a system of internal limitation that gives rise to reason. Not the process of thinking itself or remembering stuff, even associating and reproducing. Or like the term "henid" and "opinion" (Spinoza's first type of knowledge) which is more unbound in some way but a long way from the "eternal sacred" forms of cut and divide.

Now one thing to understand about Alex and the type which washes ashore once in a while is that he definitely possesses a very good mind. Actually I don't think I encountered on message forums a more expansive and active mind. Occasionally some posts have been quite stunning in prose and power, even showing a very good understanding of a complex topic. Now how can we go from this to what you have correctly described as opposition to reason as something to be deadening and limiting.

This ventures perhaps a bit too much into psychoanalyzing but a little bit of this might be justified. Imagine a mind which has been exploring and expanding, soaking up like a sponge without any inner self-enforced limitation or direction. While reason in the highest possible sense is about challenging, overturning especially its own processing in terms of cherished assumptions and habits, refuges and blocks, a surgical knife with "the infinite capacity for giving pain" - all in the sense of our struggling thought processing. This way the hard questions come along which humble us, sometimes depresses and murders us but always with the potential to move beyond it and taste liberation; experiencing something the sages spoke of.

Now it seems possible for a mind to not acknowledge limitation as self-imposed tool, reject the sharpest tool: no self-immolation but only expansions, incorporation, exploration and consumption. Such mind won't stop with the books but wants to soak up other minds, live in everything and everyone, mistakingly thinking it can somehow spread that way in neutrality. It's akin to a spiritual process minus the hard parts. Therefore every sharp object becomes a laughing mirror, an ugliness to oppose, to ridicule, to challenge as spoiler. It's like the little kid whose parents never threw up any boundaries or rules. Or too many and a rebellion or reversal happens (this is why one shouldn't speculate too much -- too many variables).

So we have a very expanded and crafty mind without any capacity for the hard thoughts, the focus or directness needed to get to reason in the philosophical sense. For others it will constantly appear as fog, swamp or overly fluent types of expressions. It's some kind of pancake geniality perhaps. Personally I'm still amazed by this phenomenon but it doesn't hold any mystery anymore. There's also no "solution" to this, like throwing rocks into water will not change things but create some waves now and again. It also explains the feminine vibes some people pick up on. But it's actually single-minded but only in terms of expansion, of never-ending consumption: the insane, short-circuited sweet popcorn maker of the soul!
Dennis Mahar
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Re: I, Unidian, "Naturyl," James Quirk, am a popcorn maker.

Post by Dennis Mahar »

seeker,
you said something about you experienced a change in vision or a sensation about the head,
I believe I know what you mean.

as if not being dispersed,
as if being pulled into a focus point,
centralised.

as if experiencing 'being' in a space of 'easiness' or 'at ease'
in a 'commanding position' from which to view the unceasing flow of activity.

In command.
not easily distracted.

A single point of focus.

can you descibe it?
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: I, Unidian, "Naturyl," James Quirk, am a popcorn maker.

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

'Stepping back from your own mind', your focus becomes the whole of your own experience, including sensations and thoughts. In this way you experience your own consciousness from a non-attached 'perspective'.

Imagine looking at someone while zoned out thinking of something else... but then you silence yourself and your mind shifts to really looking at the person, seeing the true nature of what your seeing. This is where the machinery becomes obvious, and also where you 'see' the projection.

Reminds me of.... don't talk, don't think, empty your mind and just do. The idea of letting your actions arise on their own.

In a sense I would call this "stepping back" the practice of enlightenment, in meditation you do this exact thing. Being in touch with the immortal/uncreated/unborn... the contents of consciousness are always changing but consciousness itself remains.

Staying in this 'mode' of non-attached experience is escaping all suffering, only when you return to being/become attached again does suffering arise.

The command/authority comes from knowing who you are, being who you are, an awareness of yourself, knowing that your own empty experience is the same scope of all existence. You were asking me how I came to awareness that all things, including my own self, were essentially illusions. I can honestly say that I moved there on my own and realized it on my own only to be later confirmed by the Buddha, this is why my view is intuitive and also why I am free of any doubt in relation to what I know. I know very little about any subject but at the same time I know everything enough to speak the truth of any situation. Truth being the only authority.

"in a 'commanding position' from which to view the unceasing flow of activity."

Is what is described as "stepping back" what you had in mind?
Dennis Mahar
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Re: I, Unidian, "Naturyl," James Quirk, am a popcorn maker.

Post by Dennis Mahar »

It looks like we're on the same page.

I call it 'conscious contact'.

accessing the ontological domain, the being of human being,
as meaning maker

I assign 'meaning' to objects arising, giving them characteristics, properties, functions.

The context then shifts from looking for truth to a context of 'truthfulness'.


Are you happy to explore this?

Back in the day I would suck on a bong and drift into a set of meaningless fantasising and speculating which was enjoyable to some extent,
that took a day or two to clean out of the system before recovering poise.
That activity showed up as pointless.
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: I, Unidian, "Naturyl," James Quirk, am a popcorn maker.

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Some more personality guessing I see...I don't drink or smoke weed, yet I have drunk and smoked weed. You keep talking to me as if I am a somebody, we are the same no person. Not quite sure what you mean, but yes I am ready.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: I, Unidian, "Naturyl," James Quirk, am a popcorn maker.

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Try and keep up to speed please.

I said:
Back in the day I would suck on a bong and drift into a set of meaningless fantasising and speculating which was enjoyable to some extent,
that took a day or two to clean out of the system before recovering poise.
That activity showed up as pointless.
In a context of 'truthfulness' I talked about me.

You said:
Some more personality guessing I see...I don't drink or smoke weed, yet I have drunk and smoked weed. You keep talking to me as if I am a somebody, we are the same no person. Not quite sure what you mean, but yes I am ready.
It wasn't about you.

Nevertheless, the phenomenon of 'drug taking' in any form, as a regular practice, in my experience, is counter-productive for the possibility of 'conscious contact'.
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: I, Unidian, "Naturyl," James Quirk, am a popcorn maker.

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Well you can see why I would be mistaken, and I agree overall. Drifted off a bit, where are you leading with this?
Dennis Mahar
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Re: I, Unidian, "Naturyl," James Quirk, am a popcorn maker.

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Imagine looking at someone while zoned out thinking of something else... but then you silence yourself and your mind shifts to really looking at the person, seeing the true nature of what your seeing. This is where the machinery becomes obvious, and also where you 'see' the projection.
That's conscious contact.

I don't have to imagine it.
It's what's going on for human being.
meaning maker.

Your 'girlfriend' for instance (object)
is meaningful only in the attributes you assign her.
she is empirical reality constantly changing and therefore unknowable.
she shows up in a context as content for the time being.

she appears to exist from her own side and does not.
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Unidian
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Re: I, Unidian, "Naturyl," James Quirk, am a popcorn maker.

Post by Unidian »

I make popcorn, dispel all delusions, attain enlightenment, and burn my bathroom down.

It be's like that sometimes, cause I can't control the rhymes.
I live in a tub.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: I, Unidian, "Naturyl," James Quirk, am a popcorn maker.

Post by Dennis Mahar »

seeker,
'Stepping back from your own mind', your focus becomes the whole of your own experience, including sensations and thoughts. In this way you experience your own consciousness from a non-attached 'perspective'.
What is everything?

Eye and material form, ear and sound, nose and odour, tongue and taste, body and tangibles, mind and concepts.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: I, Unidian, "Naturyl," James Quirk, am a popcorn maker.

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Staying in this 'mode' of non-attached experience is escaping all suffering, only when you return to being/become attached again does suffering arise.

The command/authority comes from knowing who you are, being who you are, an awareness of yourself, knowing that your own empty experience is the same scope of all existence.
'Holding the fort' or 'in command',
or being/becoming continuously that conscious contact with the true nature of objects appearing,
the profound experience of the emptiness of phenomena.

involves strategic thinking.

the hoax is so amazing isn't it?
astonishing
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: I, Unidian, "Naturyl," James Quirk, am a popcorn maker.

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Dennis Mahar wrote: she appears to exist from her own side and does not.
I see this too, for my self also, the very fact of which is just unexplainable and radical.
Dennis Mahar wrote: the hoax is so amazing isn't it?
astonishing
I get what you mean by hoax, I am aware that everyone is "fooled" by it, but there was nothing intentional being done to trick anybody. Laird said "I assume I have free will because otherwise I would have to believe there was some kind of trickster demi-god tricking me into thinking I do".
In my opinion it is only a result of our lack of memory and attachment to the flowing conceptualizations. In a sense the mind has no choice but to assume "This is me", it simply doesn't know better.

Astonishing, mind blowing, I still don't believe it, every single time I look I can't believe it.

This is why I like Lao Tzu, he clearly knew what he was talking about

"The great Tao flows everywhere.
All things are born from it,
yet it doesn't create them.
It pours itself into its work,
yet it makes no claim.
It nourishes infinite worlds,
yet it doesn't hold on to them.
Since it is merged with all things
and hidden in their hearts,
it can be called humble.
Since all things vanish into it
and it alone endures,
it can be called great.


It isn't aware of its greatness;
thus it is truly great."
Dennis Mahar
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Re: I, Unidian, "Naturyl," James Quirk, am a popcorn maker.

Post by Dennis Mahar »

quite often I catch my breath and fall to the floor and tears flow like rain
the sheer majesty of it
achingly beautiful

then I get about attending to the 'survival' options.
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: I, Unidian, "Naturyl," James Quirk, am a popcorn maker.

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Being asleep is being so distracted by other things/desires that you forget to look around and don't recognize the majesty of it.
The sky! Fuck me, at least you know why I call it entering heaven. It is a spark you can share to others that makes the mundane incredible.

Damn the survival part tho, so inevitable, "Pain is unavoidable, suffering is a choice".

Now, to someone that can comprehend, some questions:

I am aware of a "pattern" of some sort that relates following events to previous thoughts/desires. Almost whatever the spirit desires it attains, a lot of the time without being aware.

The pattern I speak of is clearest between the time of negative thoughts/feelings followed by a clear smack in the face.

It is very very hard to keep aware of these things, and even harder to understand, but the relation between thoughts and future experiences is definitely there.

I can already manipulate it in a sense, do you know of what I speak?

It also appears that there are constant "teachings" of a sort, this may only be due to the whole idea that you touch fire and you learn not to touch it again, but I also feel that there is more to it, what do you think?
Dennis Mahar
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Re: I, Unidian, "Naturyl," James Quirk, am a popcorn maker.

Post by Dennis Mahar »

The Buddha's teaching is firmly rooted in experience which means his teaching is not religion or faith based.
It is in fact 'empirical science'.
He does not ask to be believed.
He invites his audience to look out for the evidence in one's experience to confirm his conclusions.
empirical means evidential of experience.

modern physics is confirming Buddha's notions but most physicists haven't as yet 'broken thru' to the realisation that things are empty, they still think phenomena has essence independent of conceptual construct.

Some physicists have realised emptiness.

It is very very hard to keep aware of these things, and even harder to understand, but the relation between thoughts and future experiences is definitely there.
a point of consciousness arises out of prior points of consciousness,
cause and effect.
interdependent origination, always 'in relationship'.

possibilities are generated out of modes of thinking
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Russell Parr
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Re: I, Unidian, "Naturyl," James Quirk, am a popcorn maker.

Post by Russell Parr »

Diebert, I just got around to reading your post. Fantastic stuff, makes a lot of sense.
Personally I'm still amazed by this phenomenon but it doesn't hold any mystery anymore.
Yes, it is quite challenging for me at times to observe someone like Alex speak against 'enlightenment' or 'the path' with such an expansive knowledge on numerous topics. I would say that it is only recently that I have sharpened my mind enough to quickly see through the fluffery, so to speak, and notice that the core fundamental issues are simply, and necessarily, being ignored.

It has become very apparent to me just how vitally important it is to learn the inner workings one's own mind thoroughly in order to see how delusions arise. It is a practice which takes place solely in the abstract, so the more tangible things in existence like human love must be dealt with in a very objective manner, something that everyone around me has no inclination whatsoever of doing. As you said, it can be quite painful, but this is just the body's (ego) childlike reaction to taking something away from it, in ignorance of what the transcendence of it does for the mind.
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: I, Unidian, "Naturyl," James Quirk, am a popcorn maker.

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

"a point of consciousness arises out of prior points of consciousness,
cause and effect.
interdependent origination, always 'in relationship'."

What do you think of the possibility of observing this without bias in every way it plays out, learning it through watching the cause and effect, until you have "mastery" of it? The directed manipulation of it that I was talking about, it occurs naturally with everyone, but being aware of it is another thing.

I myself almost avoid the greatness that I see within, the power to create and see, one of those "too good to continue right now" things. For me it is enough, or even too much, just to know.

One of the only firm indicators of someone who gets it, and I think you will agree... is a person doing works that would leave the opportunity for 'worship', yet doing it without taking any credit or even leaving a name.

"modern physics is confirming Buddha's notions but most physicists haven't as yet 'broken thru' to the realisation that things are empty, they still think phenomena has essence independent of conceptual construct.

Some physicists have realised emptiness."

An idea I used to have was to be the one to prove it, try and gain credit for the single greatest, and essentially the last, "discovery" of our existence, a notion that is hilarious now. Also I would be surprised if they ever came around to it, I doubt they will.
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Re: I, Unidian, "Naturyl," James Quirk, am a popcorn maker.

Post by Dennis Mahar »

One has to cope with paradox.
2 truths.
middle way.

Nagarjuna's distinction.

it's empty and marvelous that it's empty and marvelous.
( it exists)

it's empty and meaningless that it's empty and meaningless.
( it exists without essential nature).

it so happens that a chick can show up to a guy as empty and marvelous,
not because of her tits and arse,
because of her courage.
(admiration)

If the condition is reciprocated.

there's a possibility for pleasure.

they can milk the charade for all it's worth

because ultimately its empty and meaningless that its empty and meaningless.

they have to realise it's only a possibility without intrinsic nature.

strategic thinking opens up.
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Re: I, Unidian, "Naturyl," James Quirk, am a popcorn maker.

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Are you saying that all relationships are charades? It's a dream but I disagree, see the difference of being and awareness of being, being feels love and acts like being and does the being stuff, "conscious contact" sees form/being as an empty appearance of consciousness, it sees all other people as being just as empty, it is essentially non-attachment, it is awareness of 'self', it is apart from the feelings/intentions/desires of being, that does not make those characteristics of being a charade, that is the nature of it and it is just as real as it always was.
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Re: I, Unidian, "Naturyl," James Quirk, am a popcorn maker.

Post by Dennis Mahar »

love is contingent,
its fragile,

you are in error to give essence to phenomena,
without realising it, giving essence to such, causes nihilism to come thru' the back door.

it's a possibility for human being.

nirvana is contingent, a possibility.

the strategic thinking of wisdom can generate the environment for it to show up.

I hear people say 'I love you' and it looks like the recipient of the declaration 'owes' them something and is obligated to accept all sorts of crap behaviour because 'I love you'.
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Re: I, Unidian, "Naturyl," James Quirk, am a popcorn maker.

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

There are so many possibilities for what we can do, each as empty as the next, if happiness is yours already, then what reason is there for solitude? As long as there isn't clinging afterward. Giving essence to a person I will do freely, otherwise I shouldn't even give essence to myself. Not that I do, but what I mean is, people are as real as they have always been, nothing changed but our awareness.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: I, Unidian, "Naturyl," James Quirk, am a popcorn maker.

Post by Dennis Mahar »

I used to have this GF.

We would sit at opposite ends of the bed, wrapped in doonas and look at each other without speaking for 2 or 3 hours.
it takes about an hour for all the usual mental/emotional machinery junk to roll thru' mind.
all the adverbs and adjectives we assign as meaningful on each other, the tiny threads of emotional neediness that cling and draw each other to each other fall away.

truly we are strangers.
the idea of being coupled is strange.
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Re: I, Unidian, "Naturyl," James Quirk, am a popcorn maker.

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

And that happened how many times? Was this a ploy of yours to get her to realize how much you were strangers?

It is not like I haven't seen this before, with family members, friends, anybody, but the point is, everybody is equally as empty as me, it is less like we are strangers and more like we are the same no one. A relationship doesn't have to be there because of needs, but simply because some people can get along, and even if they have some different desires, what does it matter, it doesn't follow that you quit interaction with everyone just because you have no need to interact. Although I am mostly a solitary person, I would still always keep a heavenly angel about.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: I, Unidian, "Naturyl," James Quirk, am a popcorn maker.

Post by Dennis Mahar »

True Reality is an undivided, seamless whole.

emptiness/dependent origination is a way of perceiving that negates concepts that split up an undivided, seamless whole.

emptiness/dependent origination itself discriminates so you get rid of that as well eventually.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: I, Unidian, "Naturyl," James Quirk, am a popcorn maker.

Post by Dennis Mahar »

And that happened how many times? Was this a ploy of yours to get her to realize how much you were strangers?
hundreds of times x 3 hour sessions.

sitting comfortably, 4 feet away from a desirable girl looking back at you without any speaking or 'cute' facial contortion.

you can imagine the thoughts/ feelings arising,
the desire to possess etc can't you?

allowing those to rise and fall away.

getting past that surface shit.

just 'being-there' nonconceptually.
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