Earth is Paradise

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Earth is Paradise

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Diebert, you are saying you need to address these issues or something instead of brushing it off as "unreal". But have you tried completely letting go? It is the way, no possessions, plans and desires, right action arising on its own, living with non attachment in perception and action, you are talking about holding on. You said something about mixing two worlds, what happened?
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Earth is Paradise

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:You are saying you need to address these issues or something instead of brushing it off as "unreal". But have you tried completely letting go? It is the way, no possessions, plans and desires, right action arising on its own, living with non attachment in perception and action, you are talking about holding on.
What I'm asking is for you to address my question instead of quoting something sounding like scripture on me. If in the given example the right action arises "on its own" to defend your life, your wife and save your ass like everyone else would likely do, why do you think you would still have no possessions, plans or desires? Try to follow the question. It's about doing versus believing something.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Earth is Paradise

Post by Dennis Mahar »

The trouble is the abstracts don't play out experientially, too metaphysical.
come to the senses.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Earth is Paradise

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

The trouble lies in the difference between saying one thing and doing another. What is being said or thought needs to be the representative of the action if it needs to be said at all. One often used solution is to give it not much thought at all. But this would decrease possibilities for reflection and thus developing awareness.

I'm still trying to explain the "problem of choice" or in other terms the trouble of evaluation. The perception that it "happens" does not tell us anything about our thinking on it.
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Re: Earth is Paradise

Post by Dennis Mahar »

You got it when you said scripture.

whichever way it's looked at it's a plan.

the thesis 'not having a plan' is a plan.
which is pretty funny.

not having possessions is a possession.

not having desires is a desire.

he's talking 'path'.

the philosophy is 'impermanence' and the deductions drawn from that.
the 'path' is the religious side of things.
the script.

the desire to form a collective (sangha)
to practice the formula.
'being serious about spontaneity'.
Pye
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Re: Earth is Paradise

Post by Pye »

Dennis writes:
and yet,
taking on a Philosopher,
is of the nature 'Courtship'.
one needs to clear the decks and listen in the nature of 'ardent suitor'.
They have all received my ardent suit, Dennis, each in their own time, but as one of them wrote, the student repays the teacher(s) poorly by always remaining a student :)
Dennis: the philosophy is 'impermanence' and the deductions drawn from that.
But it's a philosophy that rejects is own conclusions, re-cognizing impermanence as overcome-ably rewarded with a 'state' of being, of stillness in this fixed knowledge; of do-nothing as one's response to one's understanding of cause-and-effect. O the deep prejudice toward the fixed, the unchanging, the absolute, as though the truth of being might not be lighter on its feet than that!

I think rather of Kierkegaard's dancer, who holds the leap in the landing, but is not relieved of the action of balance, constant and ever there in every moment, movement, and tendril. Enlightenment as the work of a lifetime, becoming; enlightenment as a living verb.
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Re: Earth is Paradise

Post by Pye »

Seeker writes: You can't see the difference between suffering daily of your own accord and suffering very rarely only when there is physical pain? (As I know you guys like to be thorough)
You might have exercised this thoroughness earlier! This is now a nuanced thought making distinctions, when otherwise you put it all in-the-head. So now, you can be asked about what distinguishes the suffering we cause with our own thinking from the suffering our bodies occasionally experience? Of course, I get that there is the physical pain and then the echo-chamber of it in our heads, but that is all sensation to me, each with more or less possible levels of boo-boo abatement and address.


Explain your own distinction here?
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Earth is Paradise

Post by Dennis Mahar »

I admire that word Courtship.

When prospective lovers dally, they Court.
Experientially, it's a Court of Inquiry.
Are they not interrogating each other?
They can be seen off to one side, chastely holding hands, enquiring of each other to calculate 'fitness'.

Are not the Philosophers wooing us over to their side,
pressing their suit,
engaging us.

Is not John,
in his ardent suit,
a dear Philosopher,
seeking us to plight our troth,
in his blessed union.
the 'path' of wedlock.

Play misty for me ;)
Last edited by Dennis Mahar on Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Earth is Paradise

Post by Dennis Mahar »

But it's a philosophy that rejects is own conclusions, re-cognizing impermanence as overcome-ably rewarded with a 'state' of being, of stillness in this fixed knowledge; of do-nothing as one's response to one's understanding of cause-and-effect. O the deep prejudice toward the fixed, the unchanging, the absolute, as though the truth of being might not be lighter on its feet than that!
Impermanence derives from simple observation with profound effects.
I think rather of Kierkegaard's dancer, who holds the leap in the landing, but is not relieved of the action of balance, constant and ever there in every moment, movement, and tendril. Enlightenment as the work of a lifetime, becoming; enlightenment as a living verb.
That's an eye-opener.
It's in Diebert's model.
The possibility of poise.
grace in comportment.
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brad walker
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Re: Earth is Paradise

Post by brad walker »

I'm still lurking some, catching up on valuable philosophical content. I'll probably only post if I have a good question.
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SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Earth is Paradise

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

What is a possession? Something you own or would be sad to be rid of, have none.

What is a plan? A thought for the future, have none. (requires future thinking to exist)

What is a desire? A want or something you would prefer to happen in your life. (Requires future thinking to exist)

Eating is a desire, I eat. I fulfill lots of desires.

Desire/planning/possession, none of these things are bad or should even be avoided unless they cause you suffering through getting or not getting them. "Live in the moment" precedes and contains all of these.

How can you say not having a plan is a plan? That's ridiculous, it goes against the very definition of the word plan, planning for the future.

Diebert you made up a situation that's never happened to me then asked what I would do. How can I know what I would do? It would depend on the circumstances. I might do what everyone else would do what's your point? At this very moment I'm probably doing what everyone else is doing.

To have beliefs and doing in line is to recognize

"the philosophy is 'impermanence' and the deductions drawn from that."

And live in line with the conclusions. Impermanence =don't hold on (in the sense of you feeling suffering when it leaves)
Eternity= Don't worry about anything it's just an experience, brushing it off as "unreal" enough not to fret over, live now.

You are always prompted. You say there is a "problem of choice" but that is completely false because you can't predict/control the future. You will make a choice and it could just as easily be the right or the wrong one. There isn't even a you, the choice was made beyond your control based on circumstances/thoughts you have no control over.

Either way, life is eternal, nothing happened, just a transient dream. For this 'problem of choice' I pick "happy" every time, or "don't care".

You act like this belief is a hard one to live by, it is actually the easiest and most beneficial for your life.

You could never believe that until you literally understand that your mind affects what appear to be outside circumstances simply through the act of thinking/feeling emotion.

Your mind is the decider of whether you are living in paradise or whether you are screaming crying burning inside, would you agree?
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Earth is Paradise

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Only in having nothing can you be completely fulfilled with nothing. Otherwise, if you would be stressed/angry/sad in losing something, that is called "holding on".

Have you ever tried it Diebert? Sit there and don't do anything but meditate or whatever you feel like for a whole week, go outside, marvel at life, don't let one single negative/stressful thought into your mind, what goes wrong in your life if that happened? If you disappeared for a week or a month?
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Re: Earth is Paradise

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

"Explain your own distinction here?"

Pye, the distinction is, every single negative feeling you have ever had, every single one, besides getting punched/aching/physical pain, is a choice. An insane choice which brings about more suffering.

So, at the end, there is zero suffering of any kind, except for the sensations that might arise when you stub your toe or your body aches for whatever reason. I can't make the distinction any clearer, all suffering besides that is a choice that you make.

All mental/emotional suffering comes from not being able to accept each new moment. Clinging/desiring something else.
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Earth is Paradise

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

In my opinion, and it seems to be the only possible correct opinion in existence, there is no beneficial information/desire/job/action one can take unless it is to move toward the right side of this scale:


Suffering-------------------------------------------Not suffering


This scale here is the measure of all wisdom, virtue, genius or intelligence.

(That could also be to bring about "not suffering" for others)
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Earth is Paradise

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Suffering-------------------------------------------Not suffering
patterns of arising rather than actions of agents.
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Re: Earth is Paradise

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Can't disagree with that but there is still emotional and avoidable suffering caused by self-clinging. This makes up the difference between "heaven" and "hell" which are states of mind.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Earth is Paradise

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:Desire/planning/possession, none of these things are bad or should even be avoided unless they cause you suffering ...
The problem does not lie in that statement but in the fact you wrote just a bit earlier things like: don't resist or plan or have desires, let go of everything, the way doesn't require action or worry, only being. But now you quickly back-paddle and say it's okay to plan, desire, own, do this, do that. You keep changing the rules of the game and really think you win every time! Are you twelve?
Diebert you made up a situation that's never happened to me then asked what I would do. How can I know what I would do? It would depend on the circumstances. I might do what everyone else would do what's your point? At this very moment I'm probably doing what everyone else is doing.
But that's what the mind is for an important part: quick anticipation to everything that most likely will happen. But if your mind behaves exactly the same and you do the same like everyone else, then in which way your philosophy would be of any relevance? It's not of course only as entertainment here on this forum I suppose.
Eternity= Don't worry about anything it's just an experience, brushing it off as "unreal" enough not to fret over, live now.
So that's your pinnacle of philosophy: don't worry, be happy, it's all going to be all right. Perhaps you should also teach the profound "take a deep breath". [attention to breathing at random times like right now can have indeed remarkable effect]
You are always prompted. You say there is a "problem of choice" but that is completely false because you can't predict/control the future. You will make a choice and it could just as easily be the right or the wrong one. There isn't even a you, the choice was made beyond your control based on circumstances/thoughts you have no control over.
Yes but the mind/body nevertheless tries to prepare itself. It's constantly predicting the future. Examine the mind and see what it's doing for yourself. And then perhaps realize why I call it "problem" or "trouble".
For this 'problem of choice' I pick "happy" every time, or "don't care".
Yes, it's a way to deal with your current trouble. But on the longer run you will understand the problem of that "choice" or lets call it attitude. The moment you want to learn about it!
You act like this belief is a hard one to live by, it is actually the easiest and most beneficial for your life.
It's certainly the easiest for your life right now.
Your mind is the decider of whether you are living in paradise or whether you are screaming crying burning inside, would you agree?
But who decides if the woods will catch fire? You are blessed with a trouble free life and you thank your god for it. It's understandable. Trouble hasn't found you yet and already you've found answers to them all. The blessings of youth! But I'm happy you agreed in the end that there's something like a decision or response by the mind which holds a key. The problem is how to improve right there. Some call it wisdom.
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Re: Earth is Paradise

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

I haven't changed anything at all, It's been the same philosophy forever it seems, you are twisting words. When did I say eating wasn't a desire? lol your argument was

"things like: don't resist or plan or have desires, let go of everything, the way doesn't require action or worry, only being. But now you quickly back-paddle and say it's okay to plan, desire, own, do this, do that."

But what really happened was, "don't worry, don't cause yourself suffering, live in the moment."

Followed by, live freely, do whatever, if eating is a desire then you are giving into desires, if someone prompts a plan to you then accept it, if someone hands you a gift and that counts as a possession, accept it.
Diebert van Rhijn wrote:So that's your pinnacle of philosophy: don't worry, be happy, it's all going to be all right. Perhaps you should also teach the profound "take a deep breath"
No, that is the conclusion of any good philosophy, any philosophy that doesn't come to a conclusion is obviously the wrong one. What is yours?

The philosophy is the ultimate truth, everything is transient, everything is impermanent,(hence don't hold on) life is eternal (hence don't worry be happy). I believe some enlightened people also pushed for "don't worry" and "don't hold on". So if I'm saying this, in apparently the exact same words also, what are you arguing against? What are the problems you have?

You are actually very egotistical in the way you contend and act with sarcasm, you say "win" as if it is a competition and you are the judge. You are arguing with yourself and we are talking about nothing, please feel free to change to either something you would rather think on, or the real nothing.

(From now on I may be fact that shows contradictions in what is said followed by insult man.)
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Earth is Paradise

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Seeker, you're not worthy of anyone's attention here. Actually if anyone still thinks you are a serious person to have any conversation with, I'd regard them as being on the wrong forum just like you. You're a little attention seeker, nothing more, after all. Well played though to string the conversations along that far, using the desire people have for conversations on this topic, a desire to explain themselves. And that's the only thing your untested unchallenged fantasies have been good for so far. But it's enough, you're now just polluting the waters with more and more meaningless drivel.
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Earth is Paradise

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

I'm the one begging not to talk about meaningless drivel and constantly contend, all you do is argue about specifics in language and disagree about absolutely nothing causing arguments, but you've figured me out, I'm just here to get attention for my anonymous "john" character and his crazy internet antics.

All I really want to do, (knowing how easily every person causes argument and disagrees on the forum), is find something, anything, people actually do agree on, (which doesn't exist when everyone is contending), and then use that cooperation to actually progress or achieve something beneficial for anyone. All argument is a complete waste of time. The difference between me and you is that I am happy to completely leave behind any judgments and ask you what you think is something worth discussing or progressing in, then you wouldn't be able to disagree with yourself and the problem would be solved.

If you don't believe this problem exists on it's own on here despite me, then I could just wait to point out a few pointless arguments and insults that will surely arise soon and then you can be sure the real issue is the attitude of contention and nothing else. Although I do agree I have just as equally participated in these pointless arguments, at least I am asking for that attitude to end regularly.

The problem is there is no cooperative goal only conversation about nothing and disagreement on nothing.
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Re: Earth is Paradise

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

I also admit I put very little effort or caring into the specific details of descriptions and strict consistency of language you guys are looking for and otherwise argue over.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Earth is Paradise

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Over time trouble will always find you and test your attitude. But the philosopher doesn't wait for that and looks for troubles, beginning and ending with those in his own mind. Those which are his mind. If everything is change then everything is strife, constantly upset and peace is the exception. This is how to gauge someone's "age" and interest in philosophy. One can read the last page of a book and say you know the story but it's then still not your own story, not your own conclusion. In a completely followed through discussion one can be tested and something can be learned by anyone trying to be sincere, which means knowing themselves good enough. This is what I've been really saying: you don't know yourself very well yet. Nearly every sentence you wrote, not the isolated meanings but how they all relate to each other has given that away. I don't think anything more needs to be said and perhaps you'll think about it over time. Not now obviously.
Pye
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Re: Earth is Paradise

Post by Pye »

Seeker writes: So, at the end, there is zero suffering of any kind, except for the sensations that might arise when you stub your toe or your body aches for whatever reason. I can't make the distinction any clearer, all suffering besides that is a choice that you make.
Seeker, if you were to press yourself on the need to clarify your own distinctions (as self-evident as you think this is), what might come to mind are the myriad experiences yourself and others might report having had where even in the midst of toothache, broken bones, etc. ['physical' suffering], we can go through periods of not-noticing the pain, especially when our minds are engaged with other things. Some people would see this as proof of the distinction of mind and body, but I rather see it the other way around - their full and mutual engagement/power of effect.
Seeker: I also admit I put very little effort or caring into the specific details of descriptions and strict consistency of language you guys are looking for and otherwise argue over.
But if you did, you could move your thinking in the manner I've mentioned above (as long as you're not clinging too much to the shape of the thoughts you've already had:) If you moved to that thought, you would have to re-picture what mind is, what body is, and what we're really talking about, what are the possibilities. Everybody's hip to the limits of language, but I've yet to see any sort of authentically grounded intelligence/experience that could not dance with and past all comers, no matter its simple or complex expression. It stands in language because it stands in life; even when words-to-others fail us, our smallest utterance can take on the most authentic ring.

It is good you have a flat-out suspicion of language qua language, but you will have to use it anyway to produce the resonant ring you seek with others. It's skeptically healthy to challenge all human knowledge claims as so-much human chirping, so much clinging, but you will have to chirp and cling to do this. Where always you see contention, competition, knowledge claims and language bluster, I see things making encounter with themselves, all because of this linguistic act. There's no need to throw away dull tools; there's every reason to sharpen them, especially if we seek mergence/understanding/love with everything else. It can stand in language if it stands in life: in every case, language as the abstract of experience; language, sometimes, as experience itself.
Seeker:
Suffering-------------------------------------------Not suffering
To the brass tacks, then: the reduction of suffering is the only sane direction and goal of enlightenment; the only suffering we can do something about is that which echoes in our heads, our thought-lives i.e. from clinging to what-should-be's rather than what-is's.

Seems an excellent goal for any sentient creature who learns what feeds and what imperils it. But why stop at the private homespace of suffering, dithering around in personal equanimity when we've already admitted to other suffering (physical), but then claim there's nothing we can do about that? bolshevik. Things are suffering right outside our doors, but once again, an overweening attachment to equaniminous mind to the disfavour of anything fleshly - that is - only the suffering of the mind is worth the effort/address and 'the body' simply must endure as it endures, in whatever location, in whatever darkness of ignorance for its own address or in the darkness of our own willing ig-norance of them. Social darwinism with a spiritual twist. If suffering is to be taken on as the be-all and end-all of all human pursuit, perhaps that might be the topic firstly, for evolution proceeds by stresses; if we all get equaniminous, what? If we find suffering the most abhorrent of all, then why do we ignore vast experiences of it happening all around us in favour of disattached mind? And what has not one of us gotten from these sufferings, these stresses? How would sentiency operate without being able to feel anything but the hum of contentment, with an occasional spike of euphoria? These are all worthwhile avenues into the suffering - not-suffering thing you've just said. Again, if you're not clinging too heavily to your present thoughts :)
Diebert writes: Seeker, you're not worthy of anyone's attention here. Actually if anyone still thinks you are a serious person to have any conversation with, I'd regard them as being on the wrong forum just like you. You're a little attention seeker, nothing more, after all.
Now Diebert, the better angels say this gets its bite from a mooded moment not etched in stone . . . :) Seeker's thought his way to some substantive things. They'll be able to better-stand in language when they stand that way for seeker in life. It's not language as language that's standing in seeker's way; it's language-as-experience.
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Re: Earth is Paradise

Post by Pye »

[Above comment to Diebert posted before reading his last]
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Earth is Paradise

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Pye wrote:Now Diebert, the better angels say this gets its bite from a mooded moment not etched in stone . . . :) Seeker's thought his way to some substantive things. They'll be able to better-stand in language when they stand that way for seeker in life. It's not language as language that's standing in seeker's way; it's language-as-experience.
[Above comment to Diebert posted before reading his last]
While I first doubted that he might have thought his way to some substantive things, I've changed my mind on that now. It's all way too shallow to take it serious I think. But there's a chance his complacency might be stirred up with a bit of firm language and pointy eared truths. Assuming they are truths but these things have their ways to seep through in their own time. Words becoming flesh, exchange becoming challenge. Can that happen? Stranger things I think I've seen.
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