A few topics...what are your thougts?

[SeekerOfWisdom]

Clearly, not well, the only reason you guys even had a clue what I'm talking about is because you actually know of the topic I am talking about, the same question remains, how to explain it properly?

Also, you asked "how does it exist", you have no clue how, you don't have one more piece of information that I could give on the how or why of this

[SeekerOfWisdom]

Also, don't be demeaning, you think my lack of ability to describe this in language has anything to do with my understanding? I'm not asking you to give me a correct description, every description you give will be wrong and flawed, I'm asking you to give a better description than I can give, I can't describe it except by saying that my experiences are akin to becoming lucid in a dream and knowing the same way you would know if it had happened in a dream while asleep, what else can I say? I'm really starting to think I should just give up speaking in general

[Dennis Mahar]

you asked

how to best debate it philosophically

what that means is a logical investigation.

[SeekerOfWisdom]

No what that means is a language investigation. Most if not all of your logic is based on language, there are people who actually know what it means not to know and people who are still pretending to know

I don't actually know if you actually don't know dennis, do you think such an occurrence might be possible or are you certain otherwise? here's an experiment, grab a pot a bunch of soil and a seed, taste those contents, touch them, smell them, add water, wait, then watch that soil and tiny little seed turn into some kind of veggie/fruit, maybe even something sweet and colorful.

Now apply "Not-knowing", accept that you don't know how that happened, that any conception of it is like picturing a seed and going "now that I've had some minor fleeting image appear in my head, this makes sense"

Then realize it's a *fuckin' dream, that you've just rationalized this thing mysteriously changing forms the way all forms mysteriously change, without logical reason, only appearances of logical reason, it goes from soil and seed to veggie/sweet fruit because that's the way imaginary things in a dream act, almost all science is based on trying to rationalize what's happening because it is seemingly consistent.

In a dream:
"What's behind that door? Must be something.

Alas you open it, something is behind there! Chocolate
where did this chocolate come from?
Charlie is behind you, he put it there
Where did charlie come from?

Almost all the "logical investigations" people have been making since beginningless time have been fundamentally flawed, because it's exactly like asking what's behind this door in a dream, getting a made up answer, then asking the next time, where did this come from? and getting another made up answer, until you stop asking and are convinced it's all logical, that your not just dreaming.

And again, the only and single reason you would even begin to assert such a thing, is because currently, you are in "this place" so it is appearing more real to you

[SeekerOfWisdom]

You think things are logical because you are still giving everything a past the second you see it,

Can you just attempt to take this on board? I don't expect there to be many people here who would take this seriously, but do you think its a possibility you may have been still holding on to false concepts of what this realm we are in actually is? Pretending to know about how things work? Because it is not the same place most people conceptualize it to be, and this leads to a bunch of sheep agreeing upon delusions as fact.

[SeekerOfWisdom]

Until you accept that your not in a room, you are only "witnessing" a stream of sensation changing, there isn't any movement, you are just perceiving movement, you didn't change room, the room changed, getting me?

You are a "witness" (experiencing) forms of imagination which can show you absolutely anything, every single logical conclusion based on the particular aspects/details of how of these forms are appearing to work is a false one.

I can say this completely honestly, I am either the most insane and idiotic person to ever exist on this planet - ever without mental retardation- or one of the few people that understands reality through complete dissolution of past knowledge, could also be explained as I know what I know intuitively not with reason.

You decide for me, but pick one, because if you pick the wrong one you've got to change from the one handing out wisdom to the one getting it, because if I'm not completely insane and wrong, then I'm right about what I'm trying to convey, that includes that causality is an illusion of the smaller scale.

[SeekerOfWisdom]

Jesus: Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours

Don't you know that all the sages came to the same realization, life's a dream, then went on to explain it in different ways? Buddha used the words dream and illusion. Lao Tzu spoke of forms arise from seemingly nothing. Whoever said Jesus's words knew what this place was in the same way

^That's because who are you? him, her them,me. Imagine something to be real, and it will appear to you dennis, expect it to happen, and it will happen, seeing the dream here? seeing what youare?

[Dennis Mahar]

Aren't you supplying a logic?

[SeekerOfWisdom]

I'm using words to try and explain something beyond logic, you either refute what I'm saying or point out where I've gone wrong, or realize the value of ignorance, I always give you hints, ignorance means your not saying anything wrong, all you know of dennis, all you've ever known of, is like a dream, not just "kind of like", it's that your pretty much asleep and dreaming, and you have been for all of existence.

Again, what are you? This is the riddle game I love it

With the eternal dreamer you are one, and that which is changing I become, I am becoming, I am that, I am, him,her,you,them

[SeekerOfWisdom]

Two guys in a dream arguing about the existence of a dreamer :p

You said we make our meanings, would it annoy you to know my meaning is to make people understand where they come from, their capability and what they are.

"If you don't realize the source,
you stumble in confusion and sorrow.
When you realize where you come from,
you naturally become tolerant,
disinterested, amused,
kindhearted as a grandmother,
dignified as a king.
Immersed in the wonder of the Tao"

Tao is a three letter word, so is god, the divine source of all things, what you are, your experiencing it.

Point out where I am going wrong, or as the only other clear alternative start acknowledging

*Bet you've never truly understood this yet

"It isn't aware of its greatness;
thus it is truly great."

I definitely am, who are you?

[SeekerOfWisdom]

"Heaven means to be one with God"
-Confucius

What on earth was this guy talking about I wonder? Sounds like some other wisest men to exist I know

[Dennis Mahar]

all you are saying really is there are causes/conditions for suffering.

[SeekerOfWisdom]

There is one cause/condition for suffering... ignorance.

[Dennis Mahar]

take a bow.

[SeekerOfWisdom]

Dennis you aren't realizing that through your short responses and seemingly final response "take a bow"

You have just taken a bow first.

Beat me to it.

[Dennis Mahar]

take a bloody bow will ya'.

you've given us a condition and a cause.

celebration!

[SeekerOfWisdom]

Who was it that needed to keep an open mind? You won't even allow your mind to contemplate this, you haven't yet once, instead your probably just thinking "oh no I've thought about this one before, these ideas are just rubbish conceptions". See how far away that is from not knowing? Instead your under the opinion that you've not-known everything so well, cleared the delusion, that now you know everything so well! Irony

[Dennis Mahar]

your writing is very strong in conviction in some places.
shows up as a powerful place to come from.
its about an Identity mostly.

a superhero.

[SeekerOfWisdom]

Sarcastic compliments, the difference between me and you is I'm not on stage to take a bow or wearing a cape to fly around in, I would talk to you the same whether people were reading or not, if I'm trying to uphold some false identity then so were the sages because they clearly hadn't had you around to tell them their talking about God was a result of ignorance.

[Cahoot]

Talking/reading from wise people = wisdom. ( That doesn't mean always, or even ordinarily)

Don't make me start giving examples like like sacred texts :p

True enough, and respectful of past phrasers. Wisdom also incorporates the universally precise timing of not-doing, motionless action, nishkama karma, wu wei.

[SeekerOfWisdom]

"universally precise timing"
Don't get this part?

But yeah non-action, non-being, he who tries to do much leaves so much undone.

[Dennis Mahar]

Sarcastic compliments, the difference between me and you is I'm not on stage to take a bow or wearing a cape to fly around in, I would talk to you the same whether people were reading or not, if I'm trying to uphold some false identity then so were the sages because they clearly hadn't had you around to tell them their talking about God was a result of ignorance.

What do you mean sarcastic?
An identity is clearly formed in your projection.
Philosophy as literature is widespread.

Don't deflect please.

You are shaping abstracts into an identity.

[SeekerOfWisdom]

Is the fact that void turns into form an abstract? The fact that seeing nothing then turns into seeing... when apparently nothing is there, is that abstract? Or is that an absolute fact?

Is your existence abstract, or is that an absolute fact too?

You can't see the connection between, "Common source of the whole universe and our experiences"... and "god"? Pretty clear one to me.

Again, "tao", "master carpenter", "great mother". I've already proven on various different occasions that whatever reasons your giving such as "But that idea is just an abstract conception or identity" means absolutely nothing in this case.

Your probably still under the impression we came from star dust like Diebert :p

[Dennis Mahar]

'own' your projection.

it carries ego and shadow.

Tao can be talked about all day and never be told.
Confucius was a social engineer, a well ordered society, God to him was order in chaos.

Ineffable silence.

Silence surrounds you.

[SeekerOfWisdom]

I understand what your saying dennis it is an almost impossible topic to talk about, it can't be grasped, but you need to remember we are experiencing the exact same thing, assigning it divinity is just being in reverence of the miracle that surrounds you, being in recognition that it is your "father" or source.

Form an outside point of view, if you stop thinking of "you" as "you", your awareness is the "universe's" (totality's awareness), your being it's being, it's awareness, everything you say is it saying.

Don't you understand that you can create because you are it, "pouring yourself, itself, into the work" ? Just go close your eyes and think of something new, something you've never conceptualized before, until your actually there seeing it, until you are marveling at it's beauty, don't you realize you just created that? Are you arguing this fact?