Beyond the Material Plane

[Trevor Salyzyn]

Making the assumption that astral projection (Out of Body Experiences) is valid fact, and not mere hallucination, I came to the conclusion that there are more planes of existence than the material one. Namely the Prime Ethereal Plane, or astral plane.

If we can build a machine that can punch holds into it, we might be able to have rapid teleportation of matter. I hypothesize that the machine will need a biological mind, since access to the astral plane seems to be done almost entirely through Mind.

[Trevor Salyzyn]

http://www.reddit.com/r/Catholicism/com ... al_planes/

[Cory Duchesne]

With a universe that is fundamentally consciousness/mind, we would certainly have less need to leave our rooms, no doubt. From what I've witnessed over the past 15 years, (synthesizing my internal state with my external) it appears there is a universal mind, or monad. This does not mean consciousness resides in any particular place. For instance, trees and rocks are not conscious, but consciousness is simply a unified whole and the boundaries between things is illusory.

The root meaning of the word consciousness is "to know together". Our individual minds are simply a distortion or filtering out of the single, eternal mind.

You might get a more realistic idea of what a person thinks of you through dreams than you would in any physical, worldly interaction. I've had people appear to "break the door down" coming into my dreams and revealing things about how they see me (and hence, how they see themselves).

Of course, experiences of that nature are never certain, and even if there was some truth to it, that does not mean it will be true tomorrow. People change.

Everything changes.

[Pye]

Perhaps any and all cravings, recreated experiences of unity with all - or "one mind" - or "consciousness itself" - perhaps all of these seekings after mergence with more than self, the sense of return, of homing . . . . perhaps all of these are metaphors for the womb . . . a real and frustrated craving for the alpha point in any one human's existence when their very conditions were a self-contained universe and there was nothing that was needed, or needed understood.

Spirit resides in the material, is the material, the energy of the material. There is only existence, and we are only confused by our own being made of matter and energy itself. We confuse the energy/spirit as precedent in some way to the matter, and this is not the case, in my estimation. They rise together, make each other, are nothing without the other, are not actually other at all.

[Cory Duchesne]

I see the world (earth) as very mechanical and linear from a particular perspective, and most people never escape the mechanical stream and are prevented from attaining individuality. They never escape the status anxiety, the alcohol, the competition, the literal mindedness.

However, with enough solitude and freedom (really, with the right ingredients), there is an unconditional existence. A baby in a womb is an entirely appropriate metaphor for the process of death that one must undergo. Through resignation we become weakened, we die, and finally there is a rebirth into the noosphere, where causality takes on a transcendental nature.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Making the assumption that astral projection (Out of Body Experiences) is valid fact, and not mere hallucination, I came to the conclusion that there are more planes of existence than the material one. Namely the Prime Ethereal Plane, or astral plane.

If we can build a machine that can punch holds into it, we might be able to have rapid teleportation of matter. I hypothesize that the machine will need a biological mind, since access to the astral plane seems to be done almost entirely through Mind.

But would teleportation of matter still matter when the mind can transport at will?

It's a huge assumption you're making which then lies at the base of a "conclusion" which sounds extremely flighty and fancy. I think your mind is degrading into smuch, Trevor. Didn't you know you're already residing in astral plane (your "reality") dreaming of importing objects (the unreal) into it? You must turn your conclusion around: could the mind be transported into the object? Or is this confusion already happening?

[Trevor Salyzyn]

Diebert, knowing that it is an assumption is key. I have far too little information to believe it, let alone to have any real knowledge. Evidence is critical. If I took it as fact and believed it to be fact, it would be insanity. As it stands, it's something beyond my capacity to prove.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Trevor, you sounded quite confident by formulating a conclusion but I can appreciate the value of a thought experiment.

Which would leave my initial reaction:

Would teleportation of matter still matter when the mind could transport at will [out of body]?

[Trevor Salyzyn]

It would be useful for space colonization. A doorway to Mars, instead of a rocketship.

[brad walker]

Jupiter and Beyond the Infinite

[SeekerOfWisdom]

With a universe that is fundamentally consciousness/mind, we would certainly have less need to leave our rooms, no doubt. From what I've witnessed over the past 15 years, (synthesizing my internal state with my external) it appears there is a universal mind, or monad. This does not mean consciousness resides in any particular place. For instance, trees and rocks are not conscious, but consciousness is simply a unified whole and the boundaries between things is illusory.

The root meaning of the word consciousness is "to know together". Our individual minds are simply a distortion or filtering out of the single, eternal mind.

Very correct. I'm finding most people are coming to almost the exact same conclusions, which if known world-wide, would have massive impacts on people's lives. We should make a topic of people that are under this same belief, (that the universe exists within consciousness), and discover in depth what we can deduce from this, what implications there are. As there haven't been many discussions talking as if this is already true, most people only talk about it hypothetically or as if it isn't.

[SeekerOfWisdom]

Making the assumption that astral projection (Out of Body Experiences) is valid fact, and not mere hallucination

What difference have you made between valid fact and mere hallucination? Anything experienced by the senses is valid fact, those people are having out of body experiences and are entering other realms, but...

What are these other worlds? Where do they exist?

...These other worlds are only other sense experiences... there is, in reality, no separation of "realms" there is only ever a change of sensation and feeling, these changes make up life,death, dreams and rebirth, no different realm or place can be described outside of a change in sensation and mental awareness.

So can we take matter from a dream-like sense experience into our shared dream-like world? Probably pretty easily if you had enough control of imagination... but remember, you would only be doing that in a dream-like scenario... technically if it was possible for people to take complete control here, (as they say the Buddha achieved) one should be able fly around even here, move from realm to realm, and do pretty much whatever they wanted.

What we should be doing is trying to lucid dream while practicing this-world manipulation, someone do it for 5 years straight and get back to me on it.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

I'm finding most people are coming to almost the exact same conclusions, which if known world-wide, would have massive impacts on people's lives.

What kind of massive impacts would those be? No need anymore for lets say hospitals, roads, computers, education, children, industry? Or are you just positing another hypothetical like what if it had a massive impact? Or in other words: could we attempt to have more specifics on which things are done differently when the universe is seen as existing as product of sensation and mental awareness?

Just to be clear on this, I don't believe there's much difference between someone who believes in a real "object" world or someone who believes in his real "sensing" mind. In one case sensations and consciousness are caused by the object world in the other the object world is caused by sensation and consciousness. It seems nothing more than a reversal of roles which still at the core displays the same dynamic, the same division, the same dualism. I think in reality people are constantly shifting perspective between the two but are hardly aware of doing so and when they do it or for what reason.

[Russell Parr]

Just to be clear on this, I don't believe there's much difference between someone who believes in a real "object" world or someone who believes in his real "sensing" mind. In one case sensations and consciousness are caused by the object world in the other the object world is caused by sensation and consciousness. It seems nothing more than a reversal of roles which still at the core displays the same dynamic, the same division, the same dualism. I think in reality people are constantly shifting perspective between the two but are hardly aware of doing so and when they do it or for what reason.

Good point. Perhaps the only difference between the two is that it takes a little more intuitive insight to reach the "universe from consciousness" mind frame. These people tend to at least have an inkling of the oneness of reality, where as the default mind-frame (conscious from object world) requires no intuition at all, and is the laziest philosophical standpoint.

But both standpoints are materialistic in the end, as they grant an inherent existence to one side of the yingyang of consciousness/physical reality. Just reversal of roles, as you say. Not surprisingly, both groups tend to sprout similar deluded beliefs (reincarnation, connection to "spiritual realms/persons," etc.), in other words, a longing for a literal "other-worldliness," an escape route from the struggles of human life, in which they can keep their egos intact.

[SeekerOfWisdom]

What kind of massive impacts would those be?

Thinking that consciousness is a product of the external physical world instead of the other way around is the greatest delusion of man kind and the sciences.

[jupiviv]

Anything experienced by the senses is valid fact

That can only be true if the senses are without any limitations, which they are not.

[SeekerOfWisdom]

"Anything experience by the senses is valid fact"

Means that anything experienced is experienced, and exists as far as that experience goes, it's valid fact that it exists.

All experiences, whether dreams,imagination, or the world, exist in some sense, otherwise they wouldn't have been experienced :P

[Olaf]

I have often thought about this and have come to the conclusion that other dimensions have a greater impact than we first realise. I know it sounds bad because the word dimension has been given so many bad connotations by popular culture, but bare with for a second.

For example, in the test at the Large Hadron Collider at CERN, they got results suggesting some particles had gone faster than the speed of light. Instantly I thought, they must have taken a short-cut through another dimension. I'm not entirely sure on what number they've given spacetime - 4D or it's own separate dimension - but it is most probably there.

After multiple experiments - I don't need to go into them now but can reference if you ask - we know that you see only what you are used to seeing and likewise for all your other senses. We might operate in other dimensions, but simply not be able to sense them.

I think accessing other dimensions might not be achievable in our lifetimes, but will be in the next five hundred years. The transportation won't be instant, but it will enable us to achieve speeds faster than light. Our dimension seems to be limited by certain factors, but others might not be, or at least will have greater limits than our own.

If anyone can tell me more about dimensions, please do not hesitate to give me a paragraph, an essay or even a book. Thanks.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

For example, in the test at the Large Hadron Collider at CERN, they got results suggesting some particles had gone faster than the speed of light. Instantly I thought, they must have taken a short-cut through another dimension. I'm not entirely sure on what number they've given spacetime - 4D or it's own separate dimension - but it is most probably there.

The results were in the end caused by a faulty connector or something. But you don't need these experiments really: just contemplate quantum entanglement, "spooky action on a distance' and it's clear that spacetime is a fabric which opens the possibilty for something to act hyperdimensional or nondimensional.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

All experiences, whether dreams,imagination, or the world, exist in some sense, otherwise they wouldn't have been experienced :P

The experience definitely exists but the object which is experienced never really does, not inside that experience at least. That is: the object of the dream or TV program is a representation of something else. Now in how far it represents anything with any quality of being real is another question altogether.

What is for you the difference between experience and reality? How do you distinguish normally between fake and real? For example you get a call about winning a lottery. Do you assume it's real? And if the person on the phone demands certain things to be done or given before you can collect the price, how would you progress? Most people would try to determine if the lottery was "real" and if the price was "real" or if a scam would be more "likely". However nobody is disputing the reality of the phone ringing, the voice and the words 'lottery'' and 'price' being said.

It seems to me the question if something is "real" does not even occur to the senses. The question is of a higher order and cannot be addressed in any way through the senses.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Thinking that consciousness is a product of the external physical world instead of the other way around is the greatest delusion of man kind and the sciences.

That's not an answer to my question. What did it cause mankind and the sciences to do wrong exactly? And which things you expect to go right the moment the reverse is embraced: that the physical world is a product of consciousness (which to my knowing science already admits as far as constructing the picture in your head goes, they only do not believe in some mystical consciousness caused by angel dust or faeries).

[SeekerOfWisdom]

Diebert what you described is different,
"which to my knowing science already admits as far as constructing the picture in your head goes"

You have misunderstood, science has not said anything close to this, science is under the assumption that we interpret light using our eyes which causes us to see, and that we have a brain which causes our consciousness.

That is a wrong assumption :) The brain and the eyes exist only within consciousness.... which is the eternal source of all things.

You aren't seeing a difference here? The impacts are that the world is an illusion like a mirage.

Some impacts:

Eternal life
One can leave and re-enter this realm using their mind
One can enter other "realms" and control their sense experience to the point of god-like manipulation
External things do not actually effect you, even losing the body,
All attachment is insanity as you are attaching yourself to mirages or sense experiences that are transient and flow as a dream
You have been and will be experiencing different sensual lives for eternity, so no need to worry! :)
All control (even in a lucid dream) is an illusion, we are only witnesses to sense experience and thought, you can now view your thoughts as direct manifestations of the unknown source of consciousness instead of self-identification to them which is the cause of all suffering

[Cory Duchesne]

With a universe that is fundamentally consciousness/mind, we would certainly have less need to leave our rooms, no doubt. From what I've witnessed over the past 15 years, (synthesizing my internal state with my external) it appears there is a universal mind, or monad. This does not mean consciousness resides in any particular place. For instance, trees and rocks are not conscious, but consciousness is simply a unified whole and the boundaries between things is illusory.

The root meaning of the word consciousness is "to know together". Our individual minds are simply a distortion or filtering out of the single, eternal mind.

Very correct. I'm finding most people are coming to almost the exact same conclusions, which if known world-wide, would have massive impacts on people's lives. We should make a topic of people that are under this same belief, (that the universe exists within consciousness), and discover in depth what we can deduce from this, what implications there are. As there haven't been many discussions talking as if this is already true, most people only talk about it hypothetically or as if it isn't.

I don't think too much will change too fast. As Diebert implies, we are still subject to natures whims. Things like injuries, sickness, environment management and resource distribution are challenging issues and require labour. Further, as people become increasingly willing to flaunt their philosophical, spiritual and artistic nobility, those that are stuck doing the hard jobs will grow quite resentful. Much of the scepticism you see from mainstream secular people is rooted in envy. Theirs is an envious scepticism, and with that comes varieties of angry cunning that might surprise you. There's a fairly logical reason why Jesus and Socrates were killed. In the present age it is unlikely that you'll be physically killed, but those carrying grudges do have the option of isolating you to the extreme, devising ways to sabotage your necessary resources, making your more mundane activities unpredictable and energy taxing, etc.

I think one of the most practical skills that a spiritual philosopher could have is social intelligence, which is not directly related to wisdom, but appears to be one of the most essential survival skills you could have. Social intelligence knows when to conceal truth and appeal to a persons narcissism. By applying a bit of minimally enacted deception (through concealment, appearing dumber than you are, etc) Truth ends up being preserved in the long run.

Know your enemy

[SeekerOfWisdom]

It was Diebert asking me the impacts on day to day life, the real impacts are on peoples perspectives, yeah the sages talked mysteriously because people will reject anything that openly disagrees with them, pretty smart.

[Cory Duchesne]

One could go the other extreme. A front of megalomania and aggression will also ensure that people lose interest in attaching to you. Abandonment is preferable to prolonged sabatoge (people will sabatoge you over prolonged periods because they are attached to you).

However, frightening people away will only ensure you are relatively powerless, reduced to the most basic tools. At least such a minimal situation is predictable, giving an opportunity to think.

The Tao Te Ching (combined with Robert Greene) seems to offer some solid social tools for making your way through society, and if you can get a group of men together who can all learn the language and laws of power, then perhaps a support network could be established that allows wisdom and genius to thrive on unprecedented levels.

However, from what I've read and experienced, cooperation and individuality rarely work together.

It's similar to marriage. Marriage functions to benefit the whole tribe, but the individual always suffers from it.

Basically, dealing with men and women in society requires incredible restraint. Very few can reward bitterness with care.