Anti Atheism. Questions for the 'ill-logical;)' Atheists.

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Anti Atheism. Questions for the 'ill-logical;)' Atheists

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:Who was it that spoke about being poor in spirit, jesus christ? Or somewhere in the bible... yet the quote goes on to say, "not knowing anything, not god,"
So jesus wasn't being poor in spirit when he had an idea of what god is?
Jesus certainly destroyed the old concept of the Jewish God by calling him "Father" and then "I and the Father are one". The religious folks started to pick up stones after that! With good reason as he just proposed complete eradication of something regarded as holy, separate and of overarching importance.
You are quoting someone talking about getting rid of concepts and knowledge, holding on to these peoples concepts about not-knowing as if they are rules, seeing the irony?
There's this saying in Zen, it goes a bit like: "this stick hits you 30 times when you speak; this stick hits you 30 times when you don't". I guess sometimes there is speech about unspeakable things and other times there's not. The same with rules: there appear to be rules and method at times, but at other times its about freedom from rule. How can that be?
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Re: Anti Atheism. Questions for the 'ill-logical;)' Atheists

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

He did not eradicate anything of holy or overarching importance, he just pointed out that he, only a human, is of holy and overarching importance, as he realized his oneness with the father.

Didn't quiet get the last part... Speech in nature is about the unspeakable, it is only used to refer to other peoples direct experiences of the unspeakable.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Anti Atheism. Questions for the 'ill-logical;)' Atheists

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:He did not eradicate anything of holy or overarching importance, he just pointed out that he, only a human, is of holy and overarching importance, as he realized his oneness with the father.
Why do you think it was about any human? There's nothing human to the whole storyline. Unless you are suggesting he redefined it :)
Didn't quiet get the last part... Speech in nature is about the unspeakable, it is only used to refer to other peoples direct experiences of the unspeakable.
You're right. But the referrals can appear as quotes, concepts, advice or rules of thumb. Rarely does it refer sublimely, that is: with little chance of corruption.
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Re: Anti Atheism. Questions for the 'ill-logical;)' Atheists

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Your statement that he eradicated anything of holy or overarching importance is false, I am relatively sure he spoke of the father as being overly important, wouldn't you agree? And holy also?

"Rarely does it refer sublimely, that is: with little chance of corruption."

Very rarely. I think we all need to keep in mind the advice on "not-knowing" given to us a long while ago.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Anti Atheism. Questions for the 'ill-logical;)' Atheists

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:Your statement that he eradicated anything of holy or overarching importance is false, I am relatively sure he spoke of the father as being overly important, wouldn't you agree? And holy also?
Just imagine saying to devoted followers of an Abrahamic religion: "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I am!" - And yet, those are the words spoken by the very same character. You be the judge.
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Re: Anti Atheism. Questions for the 'ill-logical;)' Atheists

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Yes, but then he went on to perform miracles, raise from the dead, and speak directly with the creator of all.

But he also eradicated anything of "holy or overarching importance"? I disagree that's all, I think he made everything a lot more holy and important. :p
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Anti Atheism. Questions for the 'ill-logical;)' Atheists

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:But he also eradicated anything of "holy or overarching importance"?
It's not something I wrote. Learn to go more slowly over what people write. No wonder you find youself disagreeing a lot if you skip over everything like a bouncy ball.
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Re: Anti Atheism. Questions for the 'ill-logical;)' Atheists

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

I missed the separate part in that quote, missed one word, not a bouncy ball.

Yes definitely he eradicated the idea of anything separate, as so many have tried to before, but not anything holy and important.

So Diebert, is there anything you want to achieve, or are you in a state of present moment non-desire? It is due to my over non-desire that I desire.
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Re: Anti Atheism. Questions for the 'ill-logical;)' Atheists

Post by LiquidRainbow »

reality is malleable in fact so malleable that you can convince yourself god does not exist and find many proofs and use logic and twist your perceptions that you will build a reality to where he might as well not exist, therefore he will not. But the beauty of the matrix is that it can be reprogrammed. You can use epigenetics, science, religion, atheism, evolution, why and how all in your favor.

"The most incomprehensible thing about the universe is.. that it is comprehensible." -Einstein
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Anti Atheism. Questions for the 'ill-logical;)' Atheists

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

So Diebert, is there anything you want to achieve, or are you in a state of present moment non-desire? It is due to my over non-desire that I desire.
What are you saying with "due to my over non-desire"? A cup overflowing or something?

A wise man once wrote: self is constant stress; it is the perception of its own unstable, imperfect, incomplete state.
And I'm not selfless.
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Re: Anti Atheism. Questions for the 'ill-logical;)' Atheists

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Diebert

No overflow, just a lot of boredom,pointlessness and disinterest.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Anti Atheism. Questions for the 'ill-logical;)' Atheists

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

SeekerOfWisdom wrote: No overflow, just a lot of boredom,pointlessness and disinterest.
Lack of focus. That's why there has to crop up much of the boring, pointless and uninteresting [in what you do, in what you perceive]. Think about it!
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Re: Anti Atheism. Questions for the 'ill-logical;)' Atheists

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Agreed, lack of focus when I don't find it worth focusing.on If its worth focusing on then one starts and doesn't stop.
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jupiviv
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Re: Anti Atheism. Questions for the 'ill-logical;)' Atheists

Post by jupiviv »

LiquidRainbow wrote:1.)Would you consider DNA a code/language?
You could consider atoms a language/code, or skin colour, or ground glass. Language is a basically about detecting patterns in things to which we bestow some meaning. Those patterns do not inherently exist in the things in which they are perceived.
2.)How much do you know about the universe? 5%(that's being generous)? - Any room that God possibly exists somewhere in there? Why do you not choose agnosticism over atheism then?
If God is defined as infinite, eternal, omniscient, omnipotent or something else along those lines, then it is logically impossible for him to exist.
3.)How did so many creatures end up using the golden spiral to form themselves.. chance? seriously.. remember a lot of these things are so called 'non-intelligent'? Why do so many 'non-intelligent' life forms use math to create themselves without being able to write? Do these trees, plants, seashells have a better understanding of math than most high schoolers by chance and innately?
Why do so many people snore when they sleep...chance?
4.)Can you please explain the past life experience studies that have been done on children? (If one of them was proved to be true to you would you consider this proof of a higher power?)
Even if past experiences in children occurred, and revealed the existence of some intelligent and powerful being, there is no reason to consider that being to be God, or even a god, as generally defined in religions. Such an intelligent or powerful being would be a finite thing, just the same as a rock, a pencil or a human being.
5.)Can you give me one example of something that doesn't exist creating something that does Exist?
No. But what is your point? If your underlying assumption here is that existence must have had a beginning, then I must disagree with that. It is impossible to conceive of a beginning without also simultaneously conceiving of a beginning of that beginning, and so on.
5A.) We live in a dimension of space-time, is it possible for the source to be part of an intrinsically timeless dimension, thus not having a beginning or end(so it doesn't have to create itself.. to refute hand over hand scenario)? If you think this is unlikely, why?

If the 'source' is without beginning or end, then it is not part of any dimension, and is unable to create anything.
6.) Do you consider Einstein, Faraday, Newton, Planck, Maxwell and Tesla to arrive at the conclusion that God existed without the use of logic?
Ad verecundiam fallacy here. Yes, if those people concluded that an infinite, eternal God existed then they certainly did so without using logic.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Anti Atheism. Questions for the 'ill-logical;)' Atheists

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:Agreed, lack of focus when I don't find it worth focusing on. If its worth focusing on then one starts and doesn't stop.
And suddenly meanings and reasons flourish while boredom, pointlessness and disinterest cannot exist. Other people find their meanings because of what they pay attention to, which details they have emerged themselves into. It's purely the mechanics of it. Without any focus however, meanings and reasons turn stale and could even disappear with thought altogether, because thought is defined by its ability to single out. So things can appear pointless because we're engaging while at the same time focusing on something else entirely. It's like desiring the letter 'A' while being surrounded by a whole A-less alphabet in small caps. Being bored by the rest of the alphabet is only caused by having our real attention lying somewhere else, possibly being seduced by the fact of whatever it is that's not being there.
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Re: Anti Atheism. Questions for the 'ill-logical;)' Atheists

Post by oxytocinNA »

LiquidRainbow wrote:reality is malleable in fact so malleable that you can convince yourself god does not exist and find many proofs and use logic and twist your perceptions that you will build a reality to where he might as well not exist, therefore he will not. But the beauty of the matrix is that it can be reprogrammed. You can use epigenetics, science, religion, atheism, evolution, why and how all in your favor.

"The most incomprehensible thing about the universe is.. that it is comprehensible." -Einstein
Not very well crafted start*. Then it builds into an attempt to insert an unproven assumption (a god existing). It could just as easily read: reality is malleable in fact so malleable that you can convince yourself invisible flying pigs do not exist.

*Reality: reality is the state of things as they actually exist, rather than as they may appear or might be imagined.

Too much more to deal with here - no time and no point in doing so.

Have fun in the your matrix.

Ah - apparently Einstein sure could turn a moronic phrase - oh what an ironical twist!
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Bobo
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Re: Anti Atheism. Questions for the 'ill-logical;)' Atheists

Post by Bobo »

The DNA is somewhat comprehensible. Comprehensibleness does not imply anthropinism, or interchangeable cognizance/accountability.

"The most incomprehensible thing about the universe is.. that it is comprehensible." -Einstein
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Anti Atheism. Questions for the 'ill-logical;)' Atheists

Post by Dennis Mahar »

"The most incomprehensible thing about the universe is.. that it is comprehensible." -Einstein
It's assumed that at the point where an electron was conceived by consciousness that an electron always/already existed and awaited discovery.

perhaps the electron 's existence came into being precisely at the point consciousness conceived it.

the evolution story says that a few amino acids gathered and produced the fishes and filled all the waters salt and fresh and a fish crawled on to land.
IN THAT INSTANT
the bear, eagle, antelope, human were possible.
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Re: Anti Atheism. Questions for the 'ill-logical;)' Atheists

Post by Bobo »

Dennis Mahar wrote:It's assumed that at the point where an electron was conceived by consciousness that an electron always/already existed and awaited discovery.

perhaps the electron 's existence came into being precisely at the point consciousness conceived it.
I repeat.

Comprehensibleness does not imply anthropinism, or interchangeable cognizance/accountability.
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Re: Anti Atheism. Questions for the 'ill-logical;)' Atheists

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Comprehensibleness does not imply anthropinism, or interchangeable cognizance/accountability.
Yes,
except writing it up like that in the way you did looks like you belong to a private club.
If it can't be explained to a 6 year old it ain't worth shit.
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Re: Anti Atheism. Questions for the 'ill-logical;)' Atheists

Post by Bobo »

I may have misread you. Do continue.
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Re: Anti Atheism. Questions for the 'ill-logical;)' Atheists

Post by Dennis Mahar »

I think the story is consciousness.
that consciousness chooses reality.
I don't think you or I or anything has an intrinsic identity outside consciousness.
I think consciousness makes moves in order to survive.
I think consciousness is trying to get a winning formula.
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Re: Anti Atheism. Questions for the 'ill-logical;)' Atheists

Post by Olaf »

Soooooo, God can be infinite, but the universe cannot?

I personally am not atheist, but I do believe that in order for societies to thrive we cannot have religious people at the head of the party in power. Recently, the questions of origin have become more and more irrelevant, as it makes no difference if God created the world, or it formed over millions of years and we are the result of evolution. What matters at the moment is how can we all exist now. With the time bomb that is the middle east and non-renewable energy sources, we could all end up with a lot of dead. If the end of humanity is a real threat then thinking, "Oh it's alright, we'll go to heaven" is a sure fire way to see humans go extinct.
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Re: Anti Atheism. Questions for the 'ill-logical;)' Atheists

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Olaf,
in your estimation,
do you think it's a dangerous situation,
a cause for concern.

an emergency?

how could such a state of affairs come to be?
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Re: Anti Atheism. Questions for the 'ill-logical;)' Atheists

Post by Dennis Mahar »

In a forum that stands for an investigation into the nature of ultimate reality.

On the surface a submission presenting the highly emotional everyday human projection 'it's a dangerous world' looks like a sideshow.

Given that most people are projecting 'it's a dangerous world',
and a fixit winning formula is needed and wanted to address the situation.
Instead of that wheel turning.
is there another possibility?

I say if that projection (dangerous world) is the mainstream consensual agreement then stuff like nuclear bombs is what is going to be called forth.

What does world look like if the projection 'dangerous world' is given up?

What is called forth?

What is this projecting consciousness that keeps itself in a condition of high anxiety?
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