Dualism and non-dualism:

[jupiviv]

It seems most of the posters currently posting on this forum think that all things are essentially the same. While there is nothing wrong with the statement that all things are basically the same, the degree to which a person understands this is determined by how he can apply this statement to other issues. For example, if it is true that all things are essentially the same as each other, it must also be true that all things are essentially different from each other. If you think this statement is contradictory, then your understanding of the sameness of all things is superficial.

If all things are said to be the same as each other, then there must be a certain quality that must make them all the same. But if we are talking about everything, then no such quality can be found, because such a quality must be something apart from everything. So it seems that things are ultimately separate from each other. But wait - if things are separate from each other, then isn't separateness itself a common quality among all things? This separateness is not something separate from the way a thing appears, but is rather identical with it. The very attributes that make a thing unique from everything else constitute its separateness, and although there are countless things with countless attributes, all of them are united in separateness.

Therefore, the position of non-dualism isn't opposed to the position of dualism. Those who think that they contradict each other are deluded.

[Dennis Mahar]

Not the same, not different.

emptiness is true of form.
empty is empty.

What would inherent existence look like?

If my hand existed inherently,
I would be able to take away the skin, bones, nails and the hand would still be there.
Inherent existence is impossible.

[Liberty Sea]

Transcend both duality and non-duality.

[Jamesh]

If all things are said to be the same as each other, then there must be a certain quality that must make them all the same. But if we are talking about everything, then no such quality can be found, because such a quality must be something apart from everything

Why do you suppose this? I see no reasons for the quality to be apart from everything, but rather that it must be everything, both its content and its causality (which Time fits perfectly, but I won’t bother with that here).

I presume it is because the cause must precede the effect. So the certain quality must stem from outside itself.

Nope, ain’t how it works. The QRS seem to look at reality as if the whole ultimately creates the parts, though they do not attempt to explain why. I don’t, I see the whole as mostly an effect, and the parts create the whole.

Now, as any whole affects the nature of its parts, though to a lesser degree than the causality of the parts, the whole may also in some fashion, feed back causality to the parts. “Flow” is an attribute of the universe that relates to the nature of aggregated parts, it is causality that manifests via the whole.

So it seems that things are ultimately separate from each other.

Things have differences, they do not have true division.

There cannot be such thing as separation, in the universe, as such separation would entail a break in causality, a nothingness of some kind in between what has separated, and that logically cannot occur.

The very attributes that make a thing unique from everything else constitute its separateness, and although there are countless things with countless attributes, all of them are united in separateness.

Yes well , the reason things are differentiated, is because relativity is fundamental. Relativity is fundamental because the universe is growing from its parts, its one part actually, Time. To expand means to “push out from within”, which is what time does. If something is constantly pushing out from within, it grows, but it leaves what it grew from behind. What it grew from does not cease to exist, it remains, but there is a difference between what was and what is now (which you are calling separation), and this is what relativity is.

Therefore, the position of non-dualism isn't opposed to the position of dualism. Those who think that they contradict each other are deluded.

They are opposed in relation to the self.

Non-dualists see themselves like they were agent for the totality, whereas dualists see themselves as being in competition with the totality.

Both views are reasonable, but the later is more reasonable, if merely for the fact we would not even be here if life did not have an intrinsic attribute of competing against everything else. You can’t evolve if you already think you are everything.

[Sphere70]

life = non-duality experiencing itself through duality. An incestual orchestra!

[Kunga]

Here's how I comprehend it :

Whatever this Universe is made of....everything has to be made of the same stuff...because there's nothing else it could be made of that's outside of itself.

Ok...so we have a variety of phenomena...if this phenomena was formed by sound waves, and each phenomena vibrates at a different
frequency....then that is the reason you have the various phenomenal forums.

Before the forms shapeshifted into forums, they were ONE (whatever it is).
Kinda like when you see a pile of sand,
and then the sound waves create patterns and shapes from the formless sand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9GBf8y0lY0


So, although you see all this variety, it is only itself manifesting from a variety of causes and conditions.

OM....................................................................................................................................

[ForbidenRea]

Math,

What is X,Y,Z?

[Kunga]

Math,

What is X,Y,Z?

symbols ?