Hey guys! I heard you like causality.

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.

Hey guys! I heard you like causality.

Postby Huuns » Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:01 am

Hello everyone!

Let me shortly introduce myself. I'm 24 years old atheist male from Eastern Europe, I'm interested in logic, truth and reason, but I don't have any solid educational backgrounds in those disciplines. I've been following this forum for a while now, I've read David Quinn's "Wisdom of the Infinite" and I did find it sensible.

Recently I watched "a talk on our current picture of the universe, how it will end, and how it could have come from nothing."
It's here: youtube. com /watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo (please remove spaces, I had to add them because of the spam filter).

Now, it seems to me that, according to this talk, our universe came from nothing because it had to: if there's nothing then something will always come into existence according to quantum mechanics.
Also, according to this, there's no such thing as "nothing" because even if you take all the particles and radiation away, there will be some particles that will jump in and out in existence without observable cause.

My questions is: in what way if any these discoveries could affect causality, if they are correct?
Wouldn't they assimilate the need for the first cause, if there was one?
Can nothingness (real or not) be a part of causality?

Thanks.
Huuns
 
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Re: Hey guys! I heard you like causality.

Postby Glostik91 » Fri Feb 03, 2012 6:18 pm

I'm glad to hear you read David's book. Make sure you also read all the other works David has linked on his page.

Yes, I've seen this lecture as well, as have a million other people. Keep in mind that even though there may be no apparent cause, there always is a cause. Existence is causality.

Also keep in mind that the idea of a first cause is not a real idea. Nobody can know anything about what caused the universe, except the fact that the universe has been caused to be.

Similarly, the idea of nothingness is not a real idea. Nobody can know anything about 'nothing' because nothing doesn't exist. You can't even know nothing doesn't exist because the word I am using to refer to 'nothing' doesn't represent true nothingness. No word can. Asking what nothingness is, is like asking what does a married bachelor look like?
If I have a mind, what has it?
Glostik91
 
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Re: Hey guys! I heard you like causality.

Postby Huuns » Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:35 pm

Thanks for your response!

Yes, I've seen this lecture as well, as have a million other people. Keep in mind that even though there may be no apparent cause, there always is a cause. Existence is causality.

But that's the point about those particles. Does causality reaches even beyond existence to those things that aren't existing yet and cause them to be simply because they aren't? Does that seems logical to you?

Also keep in mind that the idea of a first cause is not a real idea. Nobody can know anything about what caused the universe, except the fact that the universe has been caused to be.

How can we be so sure that universe is caused? Why do you call it fact? It seems more like a probability to me. Just because "everything is caused" doesn't mean that universe is caused, because how can we know that "everything is caused?" Humanity have seen so little in the scale of the universe.

Similarly, the idea of nothingness is not a real idea. Nobody can know anything about 'nothing' because nothing doesn't exist. You can't even know nothing doesn't exist because the word I am using to refer to 'nothing' doesn't represent true nothingness. No word can.

But you did use "true nothingness" here. Doesn't these words represent true nothingness? I'm not sure I see the problem here. If you can think about it, you can find a word for it. If you can't think about it, then you don't. It's obvious you can think about nothingness.
Huuns
 
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Re: Hey guys! I heard you like causality.

Postby Glostik91 » Sat Feb 04, 2012 3:16 pm

Huuns wrote:But that's the point about those particles. Does causality reaches even beyond existence to those things that aren't existing yet and cause them to be simply because they aren't? Does that seems logical to you?

How can we be so sure that universe is caused? Why do you call it fact? It seems more like a probability to me. Just because "everything is caused" doesn't mean that universe is caused, because how can we know that "everything is caused?" Humanity have seen so little in the scale of the universe.

You seem to be suggesting that nothing can be a cause. If nothing is a cause then there is no cause. If there is no cause then existence is impossible.

Huuns wrote:But you did use "true nothingness" here. Doesn't these words represent true nothingness? I'm not sure I see the problem here. If you can think about it, you can find a word for it. If you can't think about it, then you don't. It's obvious you can think about nothingness.

Do these words represent true nothingness? No of course not. These words represent what you picture in your mind when I say the words true nothingness. That's the tricky thing. No word can describe it, ever. Its as if you are asking me 'what does a married bachelor look like?' Can you tell me what a married bachelor looks like? No, because there is no word to describe it.
If I have a mind, what has it?
Glostik91
 
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