Employment is unethical

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
dimasok
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Employment is unethical

Post by dimasok »

Uniden has a really good thread going regarding unemployment a couple of years ago that can be consummated with his own article:

I read the original thread, but I found distasteful that some aspects weren't expanded upon as they should have.

So let me raise this question again: why should I be born into a world of coercion and slavery no different from the world of yore (although redefined to be more "politically correct") merely for the sake of labour that will consume the biggest portion of my life? If my life is going to end in death anyway which is (given an utopian like society) is the biggest lien repayment I have to make and the biggest tragedy (more of a salvation with the way society is today though), isn't it entirely reasonable for me to expect the world to OWE me something given the fact that it takes away SO MUCH from me already in the form of mental and physical pain and suffering (and every aspect of life associated with it) even before bringing the question of "employment" into the picture?

Why am I expected to earn a living? Why am I expected to go to school? Why am I expected to work at useless jobs (or careers - choose your pick) that I don't enjoy doing merely because the system I was born into happens to force me to do it? No matter what choice I make (employed, self-employed or what have you), I feel shackled, enslaved, and that I am merely changing forms of slavery and resignation is not an option unless one has a huge inheritance or wins the lottery. I am a slave to my masters or to the economy, how can that be tolerated?

What is it about the social darwinism inherent in our society that is so unforgiving to people who don't want to follow the value frameworks of society? I would like to have all the modern amenities of life (not necessarily a millionaire/billionaire but something "decent") without having to work for them and without having to aspire to them and without having to be forced to toil away endlessly, go to school and follow the rest of this "prescribed path" merely because everyone else is doing so (successfully or not)

I deeply hate work and school, I hate waking up every morning, I hate being lectured that I have to earn a living, I hate wishing for a higher salary to pay off my requests, I hate looking for jobs that I obviously hate just because I have to pay the bills, I hate listening to stupid lectures that teach nothing, I hate having to choose a profession when indolence is my natural right and I want to exercise it freely, I hate fretting about my future and whether I will be able to support myself or my family, I hate the prospect of being stuck all the time in one little spot on Earth doing the same rote work and then dying (and I never know when that could happen) without really experiencing anything.

Yes, I like to be lazy and not do anything. Yes, I could do it all my life. Would I? Probably at some point I would want to choose to do something I actually LIKE that is not WAGE SLAVERY that requies me to "look for a job" or "go to college" but merely to enjoy an activity without being penalized by my masters or the economic system in the form of lien/interest, poverty, homelessness and mental anguish among other things.

What kind of life is it? It's enough of a punishment to be born into this world, but instead of letting me enjoy my life till I cork out, why am I supposed to "repay" my "financial obligation" even though the prospect of death should have been enough of a punishment for the rest of my life. Why is this Puritan b.s. still permitted?

I maintain that employment is unethical and with that conclusion reached, nothing in life is actually worth anything and life is to be seen as a succession of moments that will hopefully end as soon as possible. And don't get me started about the cosmic insignificance and the global pointlessness of any endeavour.

If that sort of "gift" was offered to me in the beginning, I would fervently refuse and stay in the peaceful repose of nothingness.

p.s.
I am not really good at expressing my inner thoughts, but this will do for now.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Employment is unethical

Post by Dennis Mahar »

I am not really good at expressing my inner thoughts, but this will do for now.
No, no, I won't hear of it!

An excellent display of self-pity.
cousinbasil
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Re: Employment is unethical

Post by cousinbasil »

I deeply hate work and school, I hate waking up every morning, I hate being lectured that I have to earn a living, I hate wishing for a higher salary to pay off my requests, I hate looking for jobs that I obviously hate just because I have to pay the bills, I hate listening to stupid lectures that teach nothing, I hate having to choose a profession when indolence is my natural right and I want to exercise it freely, I hate fretting about my future and whether I will be able to support myself or my family, I hate the prospect of being stuck all the time in one little spot on Earth doing the same rote work and then dying (and I never know when that could happen) without really experiencing anything
Join the army, Chuckles.
dimasok
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Re: Employment is unethical

Post by dimasok »

Dennis Mahar wrote:
I am not really good at expressing my inner thoughts, but this will do for now.
No, no, I won't hear of it!

An excellent display of self-pity.
You know what I find confusing sometimes? That despite the truth of what anyone is saying, if any of that truth is permeated with traces of "self-pity" or any other emotion that is considered to be "weakness" to be overcome, then often people overlook the deeper message.

Pity or not, weakness or not, reality or not, what difference does it make? This is the way things are and whether I "join the army" or not, at the end of the day, its a rueful state of things so instead of accusing me of this or that, why don't you perhaps find a different way to reply?

I mean, think about it, for a person who vented out rationally and emotionally the way I did, do you really think it matters to me whether anyone insinuates that I am a weak specimen that social darwinism should excoriate from its gene pool? I am completely desensitized to that type of argumentation by now given what I dealt/have to deal with on the grand scale of things.
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Matt Gregory
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Re: Employment is unethical

Post by Matt Gregory »

What is it about the social darwinism inherent in our society that is so unforgiving to people who don't want to follow the value frameworks of society? I would like to have all the modern amenities of life (not necessarily a millionaire/billionaire but something "decent") without having to work for them and without having to aspire to them and without having to be forced to toil away endlessly, go to school and follow the rest of this "prescribed path" merely because everyone else is doing so (successfully or not)
Basic economics:

1. Everybody wants the modern amenities of life without having to work for them (or do as little as possible to attain them).

2. The modern amenities of life are a limited resource.

Therefore, everybody's fighting for the same thing. You can either fight or give up the amenities, but trying to get everybody else to give them up so you can have them for free is probably not going to work.

If we lived in a wise society, we probably would be able to avoid working and have the space to develop ourselves as we ourselves see fit. But there's very little wisdom in the world. People are very animalistic and have narrowly developed minds that are only a tiny bit rational. Rationality is very inchoate in terms of its evolutionary development, and it takes a lot of effort for an individual to develop it in himself. The chances that a significant portion of the world's population are going to develop it are about zip.
Ergasiophobic
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Re: Employment is unethical

Post by Ergasiophobic »

The next question is: How do you plan to buy food, shelter and utilities?

If you say they should just be given to you, then you are condemning another to a double dose of the fate that you wish to escape. Someone will have to work twice as hard to provide for you. Why shouldn't it be you (what if it was you?) that works twice as hard so they don't have to? Seems like a lack of empathy.

If you find a way to get food, shelter and utilities without working, or to do without, then the problem is solved already. (Especially if you do without the food part. lol)

Of course I hate work, given my username, but I think this "the world owes me a living" argument is obviously illogical.

Your post seems to be less of "not wanting to work", and more of "not wanting to live." Perhaps depression or other problems, which make it more difficult for you/us to work than the next guy, of course. The solution to that is not so easily found, I suspect. My current solution is to do a minimum of work and learn to live with less, and even that gets difficult on both fronts, at times. Sitting at home for two weeks with no work is nice, but then you wonder how you'll afford groceries or worry about how you'll pay the bills. Then, you're working constantly for two weeks with plenty of money, but no chance to come up for air.

I assume you've visited the Why Work forums. If not, you should check it out. Don't bother signing up though, as the admin is AWOL and the forum is dead.
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Cahoot
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Re: Employment is unethical

Post by Cahoot »

If you hate hate what’s that called.
dimasok
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Re: Employment is unethical

Post by dimasok »

I assume you've visited the Why Work forums. If not, you should check it out. Don't bother signing up though, as the admin is AWOL and the forum is dead.
I did visit the whywork forum and I tried to sign up until I realized it was fruitless but I remember reading your posts there :)
If you say they should just be given to you, then you are condemning another to a double dose of the fate that you wish to escape. Someone will have to work twice as hard to provide for you. Why shouldn't it be you (what if it was you?) that works twice as hard so they don't have to?
Its funny because we finance the prisons, the affluent and the government and its laws alongside its whims and yet that is not considered to be way more than merely double dose?! I would say supporting people who don't want to work due to philosophical or other reasons would cost far less than everything else that is already being supported without anyone asking us together with the laughable welfare system.
Your post seems to be less of "not wanting to work", and more of "not wanting to live." Perhaps depression or other problems, which make it more difficult for you/us to work than the next guy, of course. The solution to that is not so easily found, I suspect. My current solution is to do a minimum of work and learn to live with less, and even that gets difficult on both fronts, at times. Sitting at home for two weeks with no work is nice, but then you wonder how you'll afford groceries or worry about how you'll pay the bills. Then, you're working constantly for two weeks with plenty of money, but no chance to come up for air.
I think the "not wanting to live" part is very closely related to the "not wanting to work" part. I want to live and enjoy myself, but instead I am forced to work all the time, study all the time and "tolerate" life because I just happen to be born into this horrible system and the only way to escape is suicide, but why would I want to hurt myself even more? If anything, i would want to go to sleep and simply not wake up anymore painlessly. I don't really think it is depression anymore - I've been like that for years lamenting the inopportuneness to be born that negated for me the chance to not experiencing all of that slavery and punishment and the inevitability of death. When one is not born, there is no need to consider life or death as it is the ultimate serenity. Once you are born, you are essentially doomed and condemned to suffer and die.

The problem with minimums and maximums is that I abhor both equally. While it is definitely possible to work part-time, one starts asking why is he working at the place he hates, does the same work and yet is getting paid less now? That further intensifies the feelings of hatred. The only way to assuage these emotions is to work part-time perhaps for yourself since you would not have to answer to any particular master except if you fail and the economy swallows you up.

On the subject of depression... did you ever stop and consider that depression is not merely a chemical imbalance in one's mind? That it's not a conjured up helplessness to manipulate others? That it's not a disease at all? I think depression is the RESULT of the SYSTEM that we live in. If I can't achieve my desires and the pursuit itself brings me only suffering, of course I will be "depressed"! But should the system blame me and try to cure me? Hell NO! If the conditions for life are sufficiently cozy so as not to be depressed, then no one will ever be depressed! Just because life is horrendous, so is our depression severe. I maintain that the outside forces control us and not the internal forces. I tested it practically so I know what I am saying.
If you say they should just be given to you, then you are condemning another to a double dose of the fate that you wish to escape. Someone will have to work twice as hard to provide for you. Why shouldn't it be you (what if it was you?) that works twice as hard so they don't have to? Seems like a lack of empathy.
I think the solution to that is the Zeitgeist movement. If you go to the Venus Project and to the Zeitgeist website, you will find manifestos and a book about how future society would look like. Just google them cause the forum doesn't let me post anything.

The gist of it is that technology will automate all jobs (and I mean ALL), money will be abolished and everyone will live even better than the wealthy people of today through a resource based economy. No more governments, jobs, money, capitalism, laws, police or any other institution, suffering or anything as evil as that. It will be as close to an utopia as possible with pleasure and fun being the main feelings experienced. An AI overseeing the system will make decisions based on the most rational allocation of resources and not through a governmental hegemony who has ABSOLUTELY no idea what's best for society and merely want to be re-elected for the next term. It is utterly sickening to watch this unfold.

The Zeitgeist movement has millions of supporters. The founder Peter Joseph filmed 3 movies (with the 4th one being filmed as we speak) and appeared on RT (an averagely decent news channel that is a lot less biased than the other news networks) and there was a festival here in Toronto, in L.A. and in many other parts of the world just recently so its gaining momentum. The recent Wall-St protests are another indication that people are paying attention.

If only Ron Paul is elected this coming elections in U.S., other countries will follow suit with their candidates with similar world views. He is definitely not an embodiment of the Zeitgeist movement, but it's so much better than the Obamas, Clintons and Bushes and would facilitate a transition to the resource based economy I alluded to earlier.

It's funny how the debate between Uniden and Victor here a few years back unfolded. I was completely in agreement with Uniden, but Victor didn't sound like a stupid guy and yet he wrote there that he supported Obama. What a horrible horrible proposition it is to support people who have absolutely no idea what they are doing, what's good for the people and how screwed up the system is. At least Ron Paul admits that the Federal Reserve should be abolished and fiat money backed by nothing is a huge error and everyone else can't even comprehend even this trivial matter!
Of course I hate work, given my username, but I think this "the world owes me a living" argument is obviously illogical.
Illogical on what grounds? If you remember Uniden's article he wrote:
Arguments in favor of work's value usually boil down to the question of obligation. We are to work because "the world does not owe us a living." But why doesn't it? After all, we did not choose to be born. To say that we have any obligation in a transaction we did not choose smacks of coercion and even enslavement, but those who point out the fact that no one chooses to be born are customarily dismissed as "childish," "unrealistic," etc. And yet, if I were to give you a candy bar which you never asked for and wait until after you had eaten part of it to inform you that I expected payment, how would you think of me?
I don't think there is any better argument than that.

I will give you my personal situation if you would like to know who I am and what I do. I currently work at a retail store here in Toronto for $11 an hour (which I am probably going to quit soon) I also attend an online university for a Bachelor in HR. I live with my parents right now since I cannot afford to live by myself. I have a lot of payments to make (mostly servitude for loans I took) and no matter how much they pay me, its never enough even for a base minimum and I also need to cover my time off work to "unwind" too no matter how ridiculous it sounds since I yearn to be completely free of the shackles and not have to work at all ever. I heard some people in U.S. live off of welfare entirely and are better off than people who work at "good" jobs (as in crappy jobs that are better than other crappy jobs without education). So why do I have to not be able to make ends meet and not be eligible to live without working at all? It just doesn't make sense to me within any context.

You could say that I could change my life and save or whatever. But WHY?! Why do I have to expend effort just to be on the minimal level?! It doesn't make any sense to me in light of the senselesness of the whole system

Why should I work so hard doing something I hate and even then not be able to afford the bare minimum?! If I work that much, then I should at least be able to afford some of the things I want. Who gets to decide who gets paid what for doing whatever? For participating in any way, shape or form in the workforce at all, I am entitled to live at least like the middle class!

With that being said, I don't own any property so obviously everything I have is a liability and renting myself would be impossible since that would cost me at least $700 a month for a crappy bachelor pad which would, you guessed it, once again put me in slavery for my landlord for subsistence level conditions.. or if I could buy a house, to the bank.

And I heard so much praise being heaped on Canada in so many places that is so entirely unjustified. Its just as bad as everywhere else. They don't pay you anything, everything is too expensive to afford, tuition rates are through the roof and a lot of graduates end up working at menial jobs anyway, health-care is universal until you need medicine but if you have no benefits and a pre-existing condition, no one would help you with your medicine. To get the bare minimum with Employment Insurance, you have to be on the lookout for work and also be eligible for it to begin with with bi-weekly reports as to your progress in finding work. That is, if they let you have that at all. So both EI and welfare are a complete joke. I laugh at how bad it is here and everywhere else too. Only Sweden sounds like they have a system that is a little bit more socialistic and a little bit better.

Slavery is all around me. Slavery to the work I hate (I hated all work I ever did), slavery to the bank, whether its present, past or future. Who gave these people permission to "own" anything in a system that is supposed to be the common heritage of all mankind? Why do I have to pay for land, for house, for car, for anything?! It makes no sense whatsoever. Just because there is something as absurd as "supply and demand" does not in any way expiate the crime of all these institutions and these people! Why shouldnt a house cost, I don't know, $100?! Why cost anything at all? Capitalism makes zero sense to me. It's a ponzi scheme designed to enslave people for life. This is not a life worth living.

I am enslaved everywhere I go, and yet do you think I enjoy my life? If not for my parents help where would I be now? Probably defaulting on all my payments, bankrupt and homeless and of course miserable and in excruciating pain. And my parents can't help me a lot since they have their own house to pay off, medications to afford that cost over a $1000 a month and all other expenses and they barely make ends meet themselves despite the fact that they try and help me with my school payments.

I also have health problems and I always feel bad at work and because of the slave/master relationship, I am expected to ask permission for everything that I could normally just go ahead and do whenever I want. They tell me when to come in, how to spend my time, when to leave while paying me mere pittance for something I despise that doesn't let me live like I want (even as I work that much) and doesn't let me afford anything.

Do I enjoy mooching off? No, but I don't mind because even as I work my ass off, I am not given anything in return!

I am expected to do SO MANY things in life for no apparent reason. They are all baseless, pointless, meaningless and without merit. I don't want to work for a living or go to school or do anything that I hate. Why am I forced to do it if I NEVER asked to be born to begin with? Why am I born knowing that I have to be a slave for my entire life subject to the infinite vicissitudes of life in regards to health and mental stability, knowing that I am going to die, living on this god forsaken planet a life that globally has no meaning or purpose (with death being just as pointless). So yeah, the world owes me a living just because it brought me here and doesn't let me leave!

If society was a LITTLE BIT more humane, they would at least have a Guaranteed Minimum Income that would be WAY above the poverty line and would not require anyone to work for that. Especially if that works only breeds suffering and contempt and is pointless because it perpetuates the monetary system that NEEDS to be abolished.

p.s.
the forum doesn't let me post links or use non-english words that are perfectly English in nature. I feel enslaved even by this!
Last edited by dimasok on Sun Oct 02, 2011 5:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Tomas
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The warfare/welfare argument

Post by Tomas »

There's a thousand time's difference between a millionaire and a billionaire.

That's also the equivalent of $1 and $1,000

Are you nuts? By your standards, I am a millionaire but far, far away from entertaining the thought of becoming a billionaire. The dollar has lost 98% of its purchasing power in less than 100 years.

Stay on the corner with your tin cup crying about the inequities of life. Has been, is, will be.


You will always have the poor with you.

--Jesus H. Christ (4 BC - 33 AD) or thereabouts

.
Don't run to your death
dimasok
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Re: The warfare/welfare argument

Post by dimasok »

There's a thousand time's difference between a millionaire and a billionaire.

That's also the equivalent of $1 and $1,000

Are you nuts? By your standards, I am a millionaire but far, far away from entertaining the thought of becoming a billionaire. The dollar has lost 98% of its purchasing power in less than 100 years.
Your rant about the difference between a millionaire and a billionaire is incoherent at best. I never really sought to discuss this in depth but merely mentioned it passingly in one paragraph.
Stay on the corner with your tin cup crying about the inequities of life. Has been, is, will be.
This approach is exactly the reason why we are stuck in the shitty rut that we are. Less people like you will ensure we will all have a prosperous future.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Employment is unethical

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

dimasok wrote:I deeply hate work and school, I hate waking up every morning, I hate being lectured that I have to earn a living, I hate wishing for a higher salary to pay off my requests, I hate looking for jobs that I obviously hate just because I have to pay the bills, I hate listening to stupid lectures that teach nothing, I hate having to choose a profession when indolence is my natural right and I want to exercise it freely, I hate fretting about my future and whether I will be able to support myself or my family, I hate the prospect of being stuck all the time in one little spot on Earth doing the same rote work and then dying (and I never know when that could happen) without really experiencing anything.
Fair enough. Although it should be mentioned that hate is a tough form of labor. Such resistance and criticism, this opposition is hard work. Even harder work than loving or desiring something. Hate is a powerful thing when done seriously and wholeheartedly. Also a good thing but watch out it doesn't deplete you as well, making it impossible to (re)act at all.
Probably at some point I would want to choose to do something I actually LIKE
This is an interesting question for you: what DO you like NOW? Forget for a while about everything that sucks and describe the things you dig. Be serious about it, even if it are little, modest things.
I maintain that employment is unethical and with that conclusion reached, nothing in life is actually worth anything and life is to be seen as a succession of moments that will hopefully end as soon as possible.
Many people have certain ethical standards and ideals which are not being reflected at all by the world around them. Not in the slightest. Join the club! But how did you conclude that nothing in life is actually worth anything? It would be interesting to hear how you see worth or worthwhileness, how are they generated? If life could have worth, how would it look like for you?

My take is different from Zeitgeist by the way. I think ideas and ideals drive the world and/or value, and not necessarily their direct embodiment or fulfillment. Automation will not ideate and as such valuation (and money) will in such world take place in realms of leisure, for example with betting or other exchanges that would tickle the mind. There's also a problem with maintenance. Thus far any advanced machine needs a large industry around it to function "within parameters". This hasn't changed since the first mass produced machine. Replacing that industry with other advanced machines will only need an even larger industry, etc, etc. It might be a law of some kind: "the dependency of complexity" or something.
dimasok
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Re: Employment is unethical

Post by dimasok »

Fair enough. Although it should be mentioned that hate is a tough form of labor. Such resistance and criticism, this opposition is hard work. Even harder work than loving or desiring something. Hate is a powerful thing when done seriously and wholeheartedly. Also a good thing but watch out it doesn't deplete you as well, making it impossible to (re)act at all.
I should definitely get compensated for hating then... that would make me feel better..
This is an interesting question for you: what DO you like NOW? Forget for a while about everything that ****and describe the things you dig. Be serious about it, even if it are little, modest things.
I like creating imaginary worlds in other forms of art. Like anime and video g**** (for some reason it doesn't let me put certain words that are perfectly normal!) and such (except movies). I wanted to open my own anime or game studio and be the producer or director, but it unfortunately contains everything (except labour which I will probably enjoy for its own sake): I would need to hire a big team of programmers/designers and what not and that entails having money. Government has certain loan programs that can help with their wages in the beginning, but I still need to have some sort of capital to invest. I don't have anything even close to that.
Many people have certain ethical standards and ideals which are not being reflected at all by the world around them. Not in the slightest. Join the club! But how did you conclude that nothing in life is actually worth anything? It would be interesting to hear how you see worth or worthwhileness, how are they generated? If life could have worth, how would it look like for you?
Well, its really easy to understand. Firstly, there is an issue of death - that alone makes all pursuit worthless if it all ends in an oblivion. And no, it doesn't comfort me that others will remember my name because I would not exist anymore so for me it is not a form of romanticized immortality as it is for some people.

Secondly, if I am forced to be born, where's the worth in doing the things I hate? At the end of the day, it will either end with someone taking their own life or disengaging from society completely. Both are not symptoms of an unhealthy mind but consequences of a bully system.

Thirdly, we live in a tiny town that is itself in a tiny city, that is itself in a tiny country that is itself on a tiny continent that is itself on a tiny planet that is hovering in the middle of complete blackness that doesn't have any reason or purpose for existing. It's a speck of dust on the face of cosmic enormity. There are trillions of stars and billions of galaxies. Hell, the universe is probably infinite and yet they tell us we cannot be expected to visit any of it anytime soon or perhaps never (after all, we can't even go back to the moon properly!). Instead of spending money for such fruitful pursuits as terraforming other planets, visiting other exciting places and looking for other signs of intelligence, we spend all that money (that is created from nothing always and doesn't exist at all except our imagination and will eventually stop being a factor at all in a truly technological society) on meaningless wars and slaughter. We are an extremely primitive, condescending and despicable species - no wonder no one else out there (if they exist) want to contact us!

So these three things are the main pillars where worth is generated and contrary to popular belief, scale DOES make a difference and if I feel tiny and insignificant in comparison to something else (me to objects, me to town, me to city, me to earth, me to universe, etc), then it cannot be argued in my mind that it is not the case and the universe is contained within us or all other sorts of hogwash originating from new-age self-help trashy books since that simply doesn't cut it for me on any level.

How would life look to me as worthy? well, due to my limited cognitive abilities, I cannot say definitively how it would look because surely one would need supraintelligence for that (something akin to a post-singularity level of intelligence) but to my limited mind it would first of all be something like the Zeitgeist system where there is no property to be owned, no money, no government or laws, no useless institutions like schools and universities, no limitations on what people want to do and whether they can do it (all one would need is a desire). You could read the book by Jacques Fresco called "Looking Forward" that can be freely downloaded from the Venus Project website, that should give you a good representation of how life should be.

What else? well, everything else would largely fall into place because in that society not limited by anything, we will fully explore our potential and our surroundings beyond our puny little earthly existence. That would be exciting and perhaps then the meaninglessness of existence would not weigh on me as heavily since I would not be limited by society anymore and I could find a lot of existential subjective meanings everywhere I go and who knows, maybe we could create a global meaning at some point? After all, when we conquer the Kardashev scale (post singularity), we could upload our brains, vanquish death and create other universes too! One of the other transhumanistic accomplishment would be the abolition of suffering (eventually, on a genetic level). There would be no more predisposition to suffering and social darwinism will finally be laid to rest as technology takes over everything. And the global meaning then would be to spread our intelligence everywhere, and as Kurzweil was saying, saturate the universe with ourselves (obviously, in the form I described because the form we possess right now might as well be exterminated). That would give my life meaning and I would love to do all these things, not be limited by anything at all and be able to enjoy life fully while contributing fully to THAT society. Because I really do not want to contribute ANYTHING to the society of morons that is out there today with their empty/vain values, profit driven bullshit and lack of truly ethical and technological aspirations.

Bear in mind that the machines of tomorrow will only need maintenance for a while until the AI becomes smarter than us and be able to maintain itself. Eventually, many AI systems will intelligently manage the society: allowing everyone the freedom they want to do whatever they want (within ethical standards of course but that shouldn't be a problem once monetary motives are out of the picture and everything is provided for).

Again, read the book I referenced earlier. It offers an amazing glimpse of what future society would resemble.
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Tomas
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Re: The warfare/welfare argument

Post by Tomas »

-tomas earlier-
There's a thousand time's difference between a millionaire and a billionaire.

That's also the equivalent of $1 and $1,000

Are you nuts? By your standards, I am (quite literally) a millionaire but far, far away from entertaining the thought of becoming a billionaire. The dollar has lost 98% of its purchasing power in less than 100 years.



-dim sock-
Your rant about the difference between a millionaire and a billionaire is incoherent at best. I never really sought to discuss this in depth but merely mentioned it passingly in one paragraph.

-tomas-

Yeah, yeah. Your posts get longer with every reply. Folks like you're talking pass through here on a regular basis. Life ain't fair. We're tiny specks of dust blah bla. [dim sock shakes baby rattle]

I wanna play video games but nobody wants to buy them. Give me government (other peoples) money so I can think real deep how tic-tac-toe equals monopoly. Waaah!

-tomas earlier-
Stay on the corner with your tin cup crying about the inequities of life. Has been, is, will be.

-dim sock-
This approach is exactly the reason why we are stuck in the shitty rut that we are. Less people like you will ensure we will all have a prosperous future.

-tomas-
Hey, numb nuts .. you're the one stuck in a rut. I'm paying my dues every day of my wonderful life. Yes, ups and downs occur but that's life.

I've always thought where I'll be and in what capacity when I gasp for my last breath. I've seen people die on the battlefield called VietNam while holding their hands broken that I couldn't do squat.

Do your very best every day no matter the barracades 'they' place in front of you.


.
Last edited by Tomas on Sun Oct 02, 2011 10:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
Don't run to your death
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Employment is unethical

Post by Dennis Mahar »

dimsok
You know what I find confusing sometimes?
You are confused.

Your mind rages like a bushfire,
fuelled by feelings of self-pity, alienation, hate.
feelings are fuel for fire,
detach from feelings.

Imagine a planet orbiting it's sun year after year,
thinking and feeling,
'I hate this, it's unethical, it's wrong'.

what's the point?
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Kunga
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Re: Employment is unethical

Post by Kunga »

dimsok.....

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_13843274

There are ways to survive without living in society... if it makes you that unhappy.
Others do it ...why can't you ?

Peace
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Kunga
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Re: Employment is unethical

Post by Kunga »

Here's what some men do in India :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadhu
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Employment is unethical

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

dimasok wrote:
Fair enough. Although it should be mentioned that hate is a tough form of labor. Such resistance and criticism, this opposition is hard work. Even harder work than loving or desiring something. Hate is a powerful thing when done seriously and wholeheartedly. Also a good thing but watch out it doesn't deplete you as well, making it impossible to (re)act at all.
I should definitely get compensated for hating then... that would make me feel better..
Sadly it's never hard work that's rewarded. The most gruesome labor in history, for example slavery, mining and such things barely knew any reward at all. I think that is because the perceived value on all sides was never there and not because of repression or classes. Marx's theory of value (with all its astuteness) falters exactly there, the real value lies never in the product or the sweat or suffering put in it. Slavery and slave wages only labour the point.

But you might wonder what motivates you to exert yourself with the hate. Why not take an easier route? Which slave driver is making such tough demands on you? :)
I like creating imaginary worlds in other forms of art. Like anime and video gamez and such (except movies). I wanted to open my own anime or game studio and be the producer or director, but it unfortunately contains everything (except labor which I will probably enjoy for its own sake): I would need to hire a big team of programmers/designers and what not and that entails having money. Government has certain loan programs that can help with their wages in the beginning, but I still need to have some sort of capital to invest. I don't have anything even close to that.
Creating imaginary worlds is big business these days. A lot of growth there still for idea people. There are many possibilities here like winning open competitions, angel investors who can deliver the push, etc. You don't need to start with a big team, you need to start with one or two unfinished unrefined products which have the power to entice interest (valuation). If you had money to invest yourself, you would look for something fun to invest but also something half decent having some chance to succeed and return the investment. Thus: present yourself as investable! Or hook up with those who are. Just free advice, likely unwanted...
Firstly, there is an issue of death - that alone makes all pursuit worthless if it all ends in an oblivion.
I know people who do the reverse: they look at everything as extremely worthwhile since it all can be over soon. Rarity also supplies the sense of value.
Secondly, if I am forced to be born, where's the worth in doing the things I hate?
Something is also forcing you to hate, to resist. Either way, you're a robot. But you're free to think it through somewhat more and see if you find something other.
We are an extremely primitive, condescending and despicable species - no wonder no one else out there (if they exist) want to contact us!
Right. But one is free to try to deliver this tiny amount of less primitive, non-condescending and endearing fragment that someone, somewhere might make it seem worthwhile. Perhaps all species struggle with it somewhere.
So these three things are the main pillars where worth is generated and contrary to popular belief, scale DOES make a difference and if I feel tiny and insignificant in comparison to something else (me to objects, me to town, me to city, me to earth, me to universe, etc), then it cannot be argued in my mind that it is not the case and the universe is contained within us or all other sorts of hogwash originating from new-age self-help trashy books since that simply doesn't cut it for me on any level.
The art might be to see both perspectives: your imaginary world where you're the center of and the larger scale immensity in which you barely exist, if at all. Let both views orbit each other and you have some interesting machinery going on.
You could read the book by Jacques Fresco called "Looking Forward" that can be freely downloaded from the Venus Project website, that should give you a good representation of how life should be.
I might do that but I really hate books. Especially anything to do with modernity and all its increasingly failed notions, like the idea money is something economical, something systematic, that could be replaced or disgarded with some other system which then of course would still be "money" in every true and deeper sense.
And the global meaning then would be to spread our intelligence everywhere, and as Kurzweil was saying, saturate the universe with ourselves (obviously, in the form I described because the form we possess right now might as well be exterminated). That would give my life meaning and I would love to do all these things, not be limited by anything at all and be able to enjoy life fully while contributing fully to THAT society.
Hmmm. The question might arise if that didn't happen already, that is the universe being saturated with ourselves. Deep down this is about expansion of the self, of our information, our DNA, our tribe. The world used to have space for expansive thrusts, but the horizon has gotten so close, one needs to expand "inside" and act defeated everywhere else. The System has many weaknesses and openings though. IT appears to operate through make-belief more than actual repression.
Bear in mind that the machines of tomorrow will only need maintenance for a while until the AI becomes smarter than us and be able to maintain itself.
Sure, that would be the only way. Or: "when the messiah comes". Hope keeps us reaching!
dimasok
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Re: Employment is unethical

Post by dimasok »

You are confused.

Your mind rages like a bushfire,
fuelled by feelings of self-pity, alienation, hate.
feelings are fuel for fire,
detach from feelings.

Imagine a planet orbiting it's sun year after year,
thinking and feeling,
'I hate this, it's unethical, it's wrong'.

what's the point?
So you are comparing a conscious human being with a god damn star?! Yes, I would love to be a star without a care in the world. It's definitely the same as being dead and stars don't live within traditional conscious societies but do so within the infinite society of the cosmos that merely exists and doesn't destroy both themselves and the individuals it comprises.
dimsok.....

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_13843274

There are ways to survive without living in society... if it makes you that unhappy.
Others do it ...why can't you ?

Peace
I am not going to become a Sadhu or do any of that. I read about that man and the Sadhus, this is not for me. Its a renunciation of society by 1) not relying on nature and instead rummaging through dumpsters for food and 2) striving to achieve "liberation" but since I think this religious stuff is a bunch of hogwash, I would never be able to live a lifestyle like this.
Sadly it's never hard work that's rewarded. The most gruesome labor in history, for example slavery, mining and such things barely knew any reward at all. I think that is because the perceived value on all sides was never there and not because of repression or classes. Marx's theory of value (with all its astuteness) falters exactly there, the real value lies never in the product or the sweat or suffering put in it. Slavery and slave wages only labours the point.

But you might wonder what motivates you to exert yourself with the hate. Why not take an easier route? Which slave driver is making such tough demands on you? :)
You are exactly right. Society doesn't reward hard work. They can only congratulate you for wining the lottery or starting a company that was very successful and made you very rich. What is lurking underneath all that and why they expect everyone to follow in the footsteps (the former a mere game of chance while the latter a similar game but of less chance) is beyond me. Bunch of phonies.

What motivates me to exert myself? I think this self psychoanalysis would not really help me. I am motivated to enjoy live through any means necessary. Becoming an ascetic and renouncing all the good stuff is not liberation for me and not the right path for happiness. I want to have things in life but I don't understand why I have to work at it hoping that one day I will have them. Who can promise me that?! Should I hope instead of hate? Then I would be participating in wilful acts of self-delusion. Besides, there is no point in renouncing everything wordly - there is nothing on the other side, so the pursuit is really sleeveless.
I know people who do the reverse: they look at everything as extremely worthwhile since it all can be over soon. Rarity also supplies the sense of value.
Yes, but so what? I do not share these values and find them to be an aphrodisiac against the fear of death. To me worthwhileness corresponds with longevity. If we merely start valuing things because they are rare, then it would be the same as valuing material goods (including money) that are "rare" and hard to come by and we are back to square one.
Something is also forcing you to hate, to resist. Either way, you're a robot. But you're free to think it through somewhat more and see if you find something other.
A robot free to think but unable to change anything who keeps trudging on the same beaten bath with society's foot on his face being forced to do what he hates is exactly the same thing - a suffering robot with a deadly fate. Society is forcing me to hate and everything it is. I am not hating because I enjoy it. I am hating because it costs me more pain and suffering to merely accept things as they are so I choose the lesser of the two evils.
The art might be to see both perspectives: your imaginary world where you're the center of and the larger scale immensity in which you barely exist, if at all. Let both views orbit each other and you have some interesting machinery going on.
You could. But I choose the latter. Why? Because the later is merely an artifact of people who read self-help books (like The Secret and all this other transmeditative bunkum) and the Quantum Mechanical Copenhagen interpretations that places consciousness as the foundation of everything not willing to accept us as the mere insects that we are that learned to ask questions that we cannot find any answers to and compensating for that with defence mechanisms such as this. The fact of the matter is that the immediate life of mine is transpiring in the immensity of everything around me, and not in my mind's interpretation of it. Otherwise, an insect who views us like colossi could also be advised to view his "mental" world as the centre universe. There is only one objective universe with a large number of subjective interpretations of it that are housed in one coherent picture in our brains, but the universe with its laws is exercising immediate control over us in every aspect, while we are limited on every step and that fundamental limitations is the most crucial differentiating factor.

At the end of the day, merely using flowery language is not going to change anything. As Wittgenstein said:
"Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent."
I might do that but I really hate books. Especially anything to do with modernity and all its increasingly failed notions, like the idea money is something economical, something systematic, that could be replaced or disgarded with some other system which then of course would still be "money" in every true and deeper sense.
There is no money in the Zeitgeist system. Besides, even if you would find some sort of inevitable "transactional" element to the old system of money then it would be unrecognizable anyways except in your patterns of thinking about it and that would essentially mean its not the same system at all, not even close.
Hmmm. The question might arise if that didn't happen already, that is the universe being saturated with ourselves. Deep down this is about expansion of the self, of our information, our DNA, our tribe. The world used to have space for expansive thrusts, but the horizon has gotten so close, one needs to expand "inside" and act defeated everywhere else. The System has many weaknesses and openings though. IT appears to operate through make-belief more than actual repression.
[/quote]
I am having trouble following your poetic replies. It doesn't matter what it is "deep down". That's why I like staying away from anything that doesn't offer practical solutions but merely envelopes the original subject in metaphorical and metaphysical fluff. No offence, but I am very exhausted from people attempting to be saccharinely optimistic.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Employment is unethical

Post by Dennis Mahar »

A planet, a star, a society, you,
are not the same and not different.
all depend for their existence on causes/conditions.

The causes for your death are arraigned around you.
you are a flickering candle in hurricane winds.

Being emotional about it,
caring about it,
suffering about it,

what's the point?
dimasok
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Re: Employment is unethical

Post by dimasok »

Dennis Mahar wrote:A planet, a star, a society, you,
are not the same and not different.
all depend for their existence on causes/conditions.

The causes for your death are arraigned around you.
you are a flickering candle in hurricane winds.

Being emotional about it,
caring about it,
suffering about it,

what's the point?
You'd do well to write a self-help books and hope the delusional maniacs out there will bite on it
If you are willing to embrace such an extremist view, then I can easily assess there is no point in anything. There is no point in either life or death. There is not even a point in saying there is no point or arguing for one thing versus another! It's all a stupid game ochestrated by no one and yet incriminating everyone.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Employment is unethical

Post by Dennis Mahar »

All phenomena is by nature impermanent.

that's not an extremist view.
it's reality.

if you are according phenomena an exaggerated status you will suffer.
cousinbasil
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Re: Employment is unethical

Post by cousinbasil »

All phenomena is by nature impermanent.
Tsk, tsk. Phenomena is the plural, Dennis.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Employment is unethical

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Hi Dimasok!
You are exactly right. Society doesn't reward hard work.
There's of course generally respect for people putting their hours into something "useful" although nobody likes to discuss what makes something really useful and on which terms. Personally I've found the whole ethics of Utilitarianism to be one big swamp. Since it's so hard to predict what kind of "use" some activity or non-activity has, perhaps it's better to value principle over action or principled action over just a lot of actions. No matter if you dig the principle.
I want to have things in life but I don't understand why I have to work at it hoping that one day I will have them.
But isn't this the case with all goalposts and directions? You set them out and then work towards them. From cooking diner, a long nature walk, raising an animal, etc. Neither of them can be done seriously without knowing a bit where you want to end up and think about how to get there, which steps are needed. It's perhaps not something to understand, more something to recognize. We start life living off gifts (parental support) and then go out and make sure we maintain some supportive environment by careful selection and work on response-ability: the degree of power to respond skillfully, to "master".
If we merely start valuing things because they are rare, then it would be the same as valuing material goods (including money) that are "rare" and hard to come by and we are back to square one.
It's not just by choice valuation occurs. Think about what value really is in a fundamental, direct sense: something that stands out from a context. It attracts by its amount (production), beauty, shininess, oddness or unusualness - or its potential - and this seduces us to desire the things itself or its possible exchange, since we know others might value it even more. Rarity in itself forms an attractor: it peaks interest. This is by the way how news has become value and commodity in this age, no matter its lack of coherence or application.
I am hating because it costs me more pain and suffering to merely accept things as they are so I choose the lesser of the two evils.
Fair enough. You say your hate is a reaction against pain and suffering which you experience in "acceptance". But what makes you suffer so much more than other folks who "merely accept". Are they too blind? Less sensitive? Distracted? What made you so different?
The art might be to see both perspectives: your imaginary world where you're the center of and the larger scale immensity in which you barely exist, if at all. Let both views orbit each other and you have some interesting machinery going on.
You could. But I choose the latter. .... There is only one objective universe with a large number of subjective interpretations of it that are housed in one coherent picture in our brains, but the universe with its laws is exercising immediate control over us in every aspect, while we are limited on every step and that fundamental limitations is the most crucial differentiating factor.
You say you choose but there's no way in hell there's any suffering possible in this "one objective universe" you posit with its countless of subjective interpretations. What is there to suffer, unless it's physical pain? It sounds like you're still having it both ways: this one objective world with a mini-bubble world of suffering in it that's you?
There is no money in the Zeitgeist system. Besides, even if you would find some sort of inevitable "transactional" element to the old system of money then it would be unrecognizable anyways except in your patterns of thinking about it and that would essentially mean its not the same system at all, not even close.
There always will be exchange, of things, services, passions, energies, honor, etc. There will always be the seductive elements we crave, and they will be exchanged and transacted. Money is a representation of a psychological process of representing general exchange. Zeitgeist just not scratches the surface yet and to me it qualifies as populism. The truth is that it never was about resources either, the trade in resources is just a subset of the total exchange, one subset of the games underlying society. All in all not much better than the first Zeitgeist movies which I've seen and pondered as well.
I am having trouble following your poetic replies. It doesn't matter what it is "deep down". That's why I like staying away from anything that doesn't offer practical solutions but merely envelopes the original subject in metaphorical and metaphysical fluff. No offence, but I am very exhausted from people attempting to be saccharinely optimistic.
You don't think your Kurzweil stuff about "saturating the universe with ourselves" or the call to wait for "AI" to arrive and outgrow us is not just as poetic or religious, or even "saccharinely optimistic"? Perhaps you only want to hear your own solutions but not those of others. Open up man!
dimasok
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Re: Employment is unethical

Post by dimasok »

There's of course generally respect for people putting their hours into something "useful" although nobody likes to discuss what makes something really useful and on which terms. Personally I've found the whole ethics of Utilitarianism to be one big swamp. Since it's so hard to predict what kind of "use" some activity or non-activity has, perhaps it's better to value principle over action or principled action over just a lot of actions. No matter if you dig the principle.
What is "useful" indeed? It's pretty easy to predict all kinds of uses for one's activity and actions, but a lot of it useless because it promotes values that are absolutely devoid of meaning or purpose and only serve to destroy all good and propagate more evil.

For instance, what professions should there really exist in the world? 95% of the work in the world is absolutely USELESS and the remaining 5% (doctors, etc) would eventually be automated by technology from the comfort of your home. So, if someone UNWILLINGLY participates in the 95% workforce that he finds to be ABHORRENT and works a LOT, shouldn't he be expected to be compensated for all that pain and suffering at the very LEAST?!

Otherwise, it seems to me that people are working a lot at jobs they hate just so they could barely manage to scrape a living to pay the bills they hate, go to school they hate, all in hopes of getting another job that they will hate that will hopefully will pay them more to be UNWILLINGLY present in in the same pile of 95% of crap jobs with higher pay.

You know what, I'll expand on the ludicrous concept of having to "earn a living". Not only is it absurd to have to earn the right to life through useless work but it is also absurd to HAVE to attend POWER-HUNGRY institutions (and in vast majority of cases also PAY for attending them) in order to HOPE you get a crappy useless job after you are done that will make it easier for you to once again "earn a living".

I am sorry but this makes ZERO sense to me.
But isn't this the case with all goalposts and directions? You set them out and then work towards them. From cooking diner, a long nature walk, raising an animal, etc. Neither of them can be done seriously without knowing a bit where you want to end up and think about how to get there, which steps are needed. It's perhaps not something to understand, more something to recognize. We start life living off gifts (parental support) and then go out and make sure we maintain some supportive environment by careful selection and work on response-ability: the degree of power to respond skillfully, to "master".
No it's not. You can't be seriously comparing such things as making dinner, taking a walk, raising an animal, playing a video game with working 9-5 for 40 hours a week (or x number of hours x number of days). Why should I work at shitty jobs just because I lack an idea or the wherewithal or the means to bring my idea to fruition? Yes, the rules of capitalism are adverse and ill-suited to living and breathing human beings who want to be free so it is incompatible with the very idea of freedom.

What other possible suggestion could you have? If there are bills to pay, is the only way to pay them go off is to work at boring jobs where you are being brown-nosed and flung around like a slave? Same goes for education. I don't mind doing something that I enjoy but the second it turns into a routine thing you HAVE to do every day, it sucks all life out of it, and I simply cannot overlook such a blatant disregard for life!

Can you actually say anything that would justify working in the disgusting environment that makes you a slave? I don't blame people who go to the asylums or decide to murder their bosses or their colleagues because a mental asylum is exactly what the workforce is. Just thinking about the words "job" and "career" make me want to vomit.
It's not just by choice valuation occurs. Think about what value really is in a fundamental, direct sense: something that stands out from a context. It attracts by its amount (production), beauty, shininess, oddness or unusualness - or its potential - and this seduces us to desire the things itself or its possible exchange, since we know others might value it even more. Rarity in itself forms an attractor: it peaks interest. This is by the way how news has become value and commodity in this age, no matter its lack of coherence or application.
Yes, rarity is an attractor. But it also makes the item cost more and makes it affordable only to a handful of people. So what is its point if its not available for everyone? Whatever value it gains by being "rare" it loses right away once it becomes an economic entity calculated with dollar value. News is absolutely useless. Its just an institution created to indoctrinate and inculcate values held by the dominating forces.
Fair enough. You say your hate is a reaction against pain and suffering which you experience in "acceptance". But what makes you suffer so much more than other folks who "merely accept". Are they too blind? Less sensitive? Distracted? What made you so different?
I just suffer more than everyone else, but I wonder too, why do others "merely accept"? Yes, I have a very active sense of imagination and whenever I imagine something that could be but that isn't, it raises my cognitive dissonance to unbelievable degrees and makes me suffer because even the "mild" version of my scenario is nowhere to be found.

Even if I could theoretically accept (and I will never accept that, but just as a thought experiment...) that I have to work for a living, what is it that makes me suffer through life despite working so much? Why can't I afford anything that I want even though I work so much? If society were to let me work for minimum wage 5 days a week and still be able to afford all the basic necessities of life plus all the modern luxuries, then that would at least be tolerable somewhat even if I was a slave essentially. But one of my biggest qualms about this whole system is that it is so UNAPOLOGETIC about enslaving people!

People can argue all they want that it is all about motivation, hard work, perseverance, ambition, etc and yet, people who work very hard for a certain sum of an imaginary construct called "money" with someone else deciding how much they should get paid and how much they should work still don't get anything at all for their efforts! If they call us leeches and moochers and bums, why then does society not compensate for hard work?! Why does it require "certain" conditions to be right (that you might never have right) before it lets you walk off with a sufficient sum to be "financially independent" from that point on? This is utterly absurd and if we are called upon to work, then just by the very act of working and working a LOT, people deserve to have it all no matter what kind of work they do and how much they get paid. Market should ADJUST to them and compensate them with all the amenities of life that they need. I shouldn't be a movie star, a sports star or an entrepreneur to have all that!
You say you choose but there's no way in hell there's any suffering possible in this "one objective universe" you posit with its countless of subjective interpretations. What is there to suffer, unless it's physical pain? It sounds like you're still having it both ways: this one objective world with a mini-bubble world of suffering in it that's you?
You managed to obfuscate my original meaning... again. The gist of it is that there is one cold, impartial objective universe of which we form the smallest particle and that particle, due to the existence of consciousness is incompatible with two phenomena: the universe that gave birth to it and the society that created boundaries around it. Both physical and mental pain are the result. No need to overcomplicate things.
There always will be exchange, of things, services, passions, energies, honor, etc. There will always be the seductive elements we crave, and they will be exchanged and transacted. Money is a representation of a psychological process of representing general exchange. Zeitgeist just not scratches the surface yet and to me it qualifies as populism. The truth is that it never was about resources either, the trade in resources is just a subset of the total exchange, one subset of the games underlying society. All in all not much better than the first Zeitgeist movies which I've seen and pondered as well.
When you say that Zeitgeist does not scratch the surface yet, it makes me think that you have a better alternative but I am yet to hear anything like that. To ease the transition into Zeitgeist, we could introduce something called "negative interest" so that hoarding money would be looked down upon as it would rot and decay just like the material goods it represents, but of course that our incredibly retarded society would opt for positive interest instead to screw us all in the ass for the benefit of a select few!
You don't think your Kurzweil stuff about "saturating the universe with ourselves" or the call to wait for "AI" to arrive and outgrow us is not just as poetic or religious, or even "saccharinely optimistic"? Perhaps you only want to hear your own solutions but not those of others. Open up man!
There is a difference though. When Kurzweil talks about expanding the universe with ourselves, he talks about the prospects of our intelligence spreading everywhere in whatever form (biological, cybernated or digital) in a literal sense of things. When you talk about things being "deep down the expansion of the self" and needing to be "expanding inside and act defeated everywhere else" - it doesn't really say much of anything. How can you compare the transhumanistic concept of a singularity with your comments about "appearing to operate through make-belief more than actual repression" - see what I mean? I am pointing to you something out of a popular movement that aims to fulfil our full potential using technology while you are pointing out things that really have absolutely nothing to do with it. The intention behind things is clear enough with the singularity. I fail to understand YOUR intention at all.

I gave you a concrete description of what's to come while you give me esoteric new-age descriptions I can read in the "Book of the Dead" if I was into all this mystical bullshit.

It's not about "opening up" or "hearing other people", its about "rationality". Its the same as "science" vs "religion". Science can conclude decisively with the available evidence that there is no life after death, but it doesn't stop billions of people in believing in a million different versions of an after-life that all sound less appealing than a typical science-fiction novel! When scientists say that there is no life after death, they never cloud it with mystical, esoteric language while religious people always talk so much about it and claim to know so much about it (with knowledge they pulled out of their ass) that their words lose their meaning even before they are uttered!

Coherency is a virtue and incoherency is not.
Last edited by dimasok on Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Talking Ass
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Re: Employment is unethical

Post by Talking Ass »

dimasok wrote: Isn't it entirely reasonable for me to expect the world to OWE me something given the fact that it takes away SO MUCH from me already in the form of mental and physical pain and suffering (and every aspect of life associated with it) even before bringing the question of "employment" into the picture?
It seems you have started from an incorrect presupposition. At the base of this faulty presupposition is a core idea, and this core idea is utterly false: you assume you are free, and you assume you have a 'right' to freedom. Therefore, you can specifiy and argue for all those 'conditions' you wish to place on your country, your city, your world, your universe, your cosmos; or you wish to argue against certain 'conditions' that are part and parcel of your country, your city, your world, your universe, your cosmos.

'Cosmically' and as far as 'the world' goes, it is impossible to argue that you are free. In truth you are utterly conditioned and dependant. There is simply no argument against this. This fact must be accepted. It is intuitively graspable (or should be) with very little reflection or argument. If you HAVE an argument, if an argument is part-and-parcel of your being, your personality, your intellection, etc., to whom do you address your complaint? Scream it to the wind, intone it into the sea herself, climb mountains and wail into the vast open spaces: nothing will change the simple fact that you are utterly a slave, a dependant, conditioned slave.

I suggest that a completely different outlook would necessarily begin to form itself were you to realize at a fundamental level your conditioned and dependant status. Then, a more productive and 'useful' conversation would result.
fiat mihi
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