Despair

[Cory Duchesne]

Despair

To those who haven’t given their own psychology much thought, despair is highly undervalued, even mistakenly regarded as “bad”. The truth is that ones capacity for despair is ones capacity for transformation, and is therefore of infinite merit. Through despair, we watch immature dreams die, finding a dark passageway into the unknown. Here, and only here, is where we can forge new, healthier, more elevated hopes. The hopes might eventually turn out unsatisfactory, but luckily for you, you can just repeat the process of transformation. Death begets Life. Through destruction there is room for new creation. Those who do not detach from immature hopes easily (and thereby shirk their responsibility to navigate through despair) are more closely related to sociopaths. We all have some taint of the sociopath within us, as we can see in the behavior of many children and teenagers. When a poorly developed person has his hopes thwarted (instead of falling into despair, letting go, detaching and reevaluating) - he becomes violent. Most of us have done this at one time or another.

Navigating despair skillfully comes with practice, we are not born good people and do not become good overnight. We develop gradually with conscious intent to improve.

[jupiviv]

I would say that merit lies in the capacity to understand, or become conscious of, what despair is. Even despair can become a crutch to some people, because it at least means one had hopes and dreams, albeit in the past. But once a person understands what it is, he moves beyond both hope and despair.

[Cory Duchesne]

I would say that merit lies in the capacity to understand, or become conscious of, what despair is. Even despair can become a crutch to some people, because it at least means one had hopes and dreams, albeit in the past.

True, the despair remains, because one is still attached to old hopes - an old self. One may lack the requisite aggression, energy and consciousness to murder ones past self and move on into a brand new life. To despair is to be old, and until despair is overcome, we fail to become young and new again.

But once a person understands what it is, he moves beyond both hope and despair.

In despair, the individual must undergo the intellectual struggle required to let go of the finite and relate himself to a new finite or, more purely, God itself. Either or is better than stagnation in despair. But the former is finite joy, while the later is infinite joy. Obviously the later is of the highest difficulty to man.

[Cahoot]

Despair replaces hope.
The trick is to replace despair with emptiness.

Fear is at the root of despair.

Indifference to the results of actions is a quality of despair, which is similar in form to non-attachment. Genuine laughter (rather than bitter laughter) usually accompanies non-attachment, though.

An approach is to embrace despair completely and tenaciously, without concern for future hope, without an ulterior motive of finding a way through despair. Don’t let despair go. Don’t give it rest or respite. Get to the bottom of it, don’t let despair hide anything. Understand it for what it is, not for what it might lead to, or what it might become.

As a result despair may get sick and tired of the game, bored, and then move on.

[Cahoot]

I would say that merit lies in the capacity to understand, or become conscious of, what despair is. Even despair can become a crutch to some people, because it at least means one had hopes and dreams, albeit in the past. But once a person understands what it is, he moves beyond both hope and despair.

That’s true.

Despair can be a crutch.

Hope can be a crutch too. Most anything can be a crutch. Dreams, dreads, the past, food, sex, money, music, TV, computers.

Anything except emptiness. Emptiness is when the crutches are tossed aside. Being in the world but not of it, as the saying goes.

[Cory Duchesne]

I just want to be clear - despair is a flaw, but it is also a critical part of the means with which to rid oneself of flaw.

[Cahoot]

I just want to be clear - despair is a flaw, but it is also a critical part of the means with which to rid oneself of flaw.

Geshe Kelsang Gyatso says that there is not a single fault that is not caused by self-cherishing.

I think that substituting the word “flaw” in place of “fault” in his statement does not change the meaning.

[jufa]

Despair, we all have been there, done that, and still find ourself slipping into this cave at times. I can't speak for anyone else and how they get up and move forward, but for myself, the frustration begins with the feeling of "what's the use?"

We all have found ourself getting frustrated with being misunderstood on these forum by those who believe, or don't believe that others have something to say, but do not know how to say it to their comprehension. Or those who do not believe anyone elses ideas have no viable meaning because they do not conform to a standard of collective acceptance.

There is a phase which comes to me from I can't remember by who, but it says - every person in this world has something to contribute at all times. And every person in this world should refuse to die until they have contributed that something for the benefit of all.

This phase in anyway I look at it tell me that I am the only one responsible to succeed in doing what is right for me. When I become responsible to me, all my efforts go towards learning how to love myself properly. Should I achieve this monumental task within me, than I've come to realize there is no power in this world greater than my will to do.

Life is a continuous story of shattered dreams. We are continuously working on ourselves to put the pieces of ourselve back together, and we find ourselve continuously in the cave Plato talks about where we are afraid of the shadows we cast. They are only shadows, I've come to know. They are my shadows. But I am the light of my world, and I can, should I become responsible to that which I have to offer, let my light shine and dispel the shadows which appear to be obstacles.

Let the light shine out, and all within the path of that light will be nullified by man's will to do what is necessary to do to bring the love within himself to the surface.

jufa (You are never alone!)
_________________
Never give power to anything a person believe is their source of strength - Jufa

[Cahoot]

Frustration is a significant aspect of samsara.

Frustration is also a habitual, conditioned interpretation of energy.

These forums are useful practice for disassociating energy from frustration, and redirecting that energy into awareness that enhances contemplation, thought, living.

[Pam Seeback]

One is contained within one's infinity until the thought "rejection" arises, placing oneself as if outside one's infinity into the world of time, space, distance and matter. This thought "I am not" as if in opposition to "I am" is the original "Self rejection" Idea. Which means, that without the human experience of despair that leads one's to question its original or first cause, there can be no enlightenment of this original or first cause, that being one's rejection of one's own infinity.

Despair is necessary for expansion beyond despair.

[Ryan Rudolph]

People who do not learn from despair are those who are usually unwilling to face up to its true cause, whether it be a poorly thought out idea/hope/thought.

'thought' is designed to solve problems, to find security, meaning and purpose, but it often times creates solutions that do not match up with the complexity of reality. Man often times creates solutions or ideas that are just not realistic.

The imagination of man is often times shoddy, one-dimensional, and linear. It doesn't take into account all the complexity, all the possibilities.

A brilliant man is one that is incredibly critical of his motivations, he can look inward at the involutionary thinking, and sort through the garbage, and see how those motivations are linked to his limited imagination.

Basically, despair is often times a man's heart telling him his 'brain' got it wrong. Its a self-corrective mechanism, stimulated through communication with someone who is able to be more critical than the speaker.

So basically, owning up to the cause of 'despair' is owning up to flaw, owning up to 'wrong' thinking, which is one of the hardest things for men to do. Men usually find a way to weasel out of the whole process without owning up to anything, so they can continue to think the same way.

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

I just want to be clear - despair is a flaw, but it is also a critical part of the means with which to rid oneself of flaw.

Disagreed. Despair can prompt reform, but so can aspiration. By assigning the value "critical" to despair, one forms an attachment to an emotion and feeds an addiction to negative emotion by giving the subconscious a way to console itself with "at least I feel something."

[cousinbasil]

An approach is to embrace despair completely and tenaciously, without concern for future hope, without an ulterior motive of finding a way through despair. Don’t let despair go. Don’t give it rest or respite. Get to the bottom of it, don’t let despair hide anything.

Despair is considered a sin by the RC Church if one yields to it, if it causes one to give up. Cahoot, I think what you are saying here is a positive restatement of the same idea (replacing a "thou shalt not" with a "thou shalt"). Don't run from despair, run towards it if it shows up. Engage it; if you run from it, it will chase you and hunt you down. Try to make despair your best friend. It will fail - it will fail because it is a faulty mental construct by its very nature, and in trying you may discover why your new best friend has let you down.

[Cory Duchesne]

I just want to be clear - despair is a flaw, but it is also a critical part of the means with which to rid oneself of flaw.

Disagreed. Despair can prompt reform, but so can aspiration.

My point though is that despair gives us the added information to form new aspirations. In despair, our minds eye dilates and takes in more light. People have feeble aspirations because they are in denial of the despair that is ever present in themselves and in every person. If they explored their despair, their aspirations would be much more lofty. The later fuels the former. Granted, more than intelligence / IQ is required for this, one must be able to bear up under stress. Some humans (perhaps we'd be wise to pin it down to physiological correlates) do not have the pain tolerance, eccentricity, courage, or burning discontent required to elevate their consciousness through denial of worldliness.

By assigning the value "critical" to despair, one forms an attachment to an emotion and feeds an addiction to negative emotion by giving the subconscious a way to console itself with "at least I feel something."

That's your theory or suspicion. Also notice how I said critical "part" of the means, which implies there are many different interconnected elements involved.

Generally, we have an instinct toward hopes related to friendship, romance, career, etc. Hope and aspiration is a very powerful drive, and most of us are unconscious of the despair that is always lurking beneath the surface. Few have the courage to let their worldly life pass them by and explore what they fear. Exploring what you fear is to reside in despair. Voluntary despair is an act of going beneath the surface and gathering information. The difference between the path of hope and despair is the difference between being blinded by the single sun, or having access to the billions of stars at night.

[Ryan Rudolph]

Cory,

Generally, we have an instinct toward hopes related to friendship, romance, career, etc. Hope and aspiration is a very powerful drive, and most of us are unconscious of the despair that is always lurking beneath the surface. Few have the courage to let their worldly life pass them by and explore what they fear. Exploring what you fear is to reside in despair. Voluntary despair is an act of going beneath the surface and gathering information. The difference between the path of hope and despair is the difference between being blinded by the single sun, or having access to the billions of stars at night.

I think it is also important to note that abiding in in ‘rational enlightened consciousness’ state dissolves the need for hope in all things. One still sets goals, but if one does not attain them, there is no hurt psychologically. I think perhaps a man still could have minimal attachments, but they pale in comparison to the ‘mind of the infinite’ All attachments become very small, finite, and insignificant in the vaster picture. The problem is that humanity has no scope, and no relationship with the infinite, so they place all their value and all their energy into future hope and attachments, which is the definition of a superficial empty soul, one that is moving in the opposite direction of god.

When only has to observe people’s behavior in the materialist culture we live in – As people get older, they move further and further away from god with every material addition – the bigger house, the summer cottage, the Florida condo, the sports car, the younger wife, buying a car for their offspring, and living through them, buying up materials that remind them of their youth. Despair that is not understood usually results in endless attachment upgrades, and attachment upgrades are the result of a mind that is never satisfied with the material, a mind that is restless with itself…and a mind that has never truly asked the question – Is there anything more to life that this trite? It takes a certain disdain for the ordinary, and a curiosity for the higher for any man to become even somewhat honest.

[skipair]

These are the kind of posts that define the dark side of GF rhetoric. The side of it that can be seen as elistists, haters and 'pain people'. This is what can happen when a person values objectivity in a way that disrespects the everlasting power of the emotional world. It is 100% false that anyone needs to spend any significant time navigating dispair or any negative emotion. At the very first sign of them you make an EARTH SHATTERING MOVEMENT AND TURN BACK TO THE LIGHT!!!!

[Cahoot]

These are the kind of posts that define the dark side of GF rhetoric. The side of it that can be seen as elistists, haters and 'pain people'. This is what can happen when a person values objectivity in a way that disrespects the everlasting power of the emotional world. It is 100% false that anyone needs to spend any significant time navigating dispair or any negative emotion. At the very first sign of them you make an EARTH SHATTERING MOVEMENT AND TURN BACK TO THE LIGHT!!!!

Sooner or later we all face reality. For some, sooner is better. For others, a feeling that there's lots of time gets one through the day.

People do what they must, and for those who must, having enough time to stop short is enough if done with genuine honesty and sincerity, though for all of us the time will come when stopping short is not enough, because time has run out.

Smile though your heart is aching
Smile even though it's breaking.
When there are clouds in the sky
you'll get by.

If you smile through your pain and sorrow
Smile and maybe tomorrow
You'll see the sun come shining through
For you.

Light up your face with gladness,
Hide every trace of sadness.
Although a tear may be ever so near
That's the time you must keep on trying
Smile, what's the use of crying.
You'll find that life is still worthwhile-
If you just smile.

- Charlie Chaplin

[Ryan Rudolph]

Skipair,

These are the kind of posts that define the dark side of GF rhetoric. The side of it that can be seen as elistists, haters and 'pain people'. This is what can happen when a person values objectivity in a way that disrespects the everlasting power of the emotional world. It is 100% false that anyone needs to spend any significant time navigating dispair or any negative emotion. At the very first sign of them you make an EARTH SHATTERING MOVEMENT AND TURN BACK TO THE LIGHT!!!!

The point of the post is that despair is often times a nagging reminder that someone doesn't have a connection of the 'rational mind'. And this is caused by their entire way of thinking, their way of living, and all the ego's sneaky ways of totally avoiding being uncovered.

For most people, the ego is like the game 'whack a mole'. A person can lose a few delusions in their life time, but the human spirit is so weak it needs to keep reinventing ways for the ego to stay intact, to stay satisfied in a very crude material sense. Basically, the ego is material identification (in people, places, things and ideas), and nothing more. But how something so small and so insignificant can hold such dominance in the world is unfortunate.

Human nature is sad in the sense that we are all born into the world as such cowards. Cowards with dozens of other interrelated flaws, and that is the lot of man.

[jufa]

Barack Obama

President-Elect Victory Speech

This election had many firsts and many stories that will be told for generations. But one that's on my mind tonight is about a woman who cast her ballot in Atlanta. She's a lot like the millions of others who stood in line to make their voice heard in this election except for one thing: Ann Nixon Cooper is 106 years old.
She was born just a generation past slavery; a time when there were no cars on the road or planes in the sky; when someone like her couldn't vote for two reasons: because she was a woman and because of the color of her skin.
And tonight, I think about all that she's seen throughout her century in America -- the heartache and the hope; the struggle and the progress; the times we were told that we can't, and the people who pressed on with that American creed: Yes we can.

At a time when women's voices were silenced and their hopes dismissed, she lived to see them stand up and speak out and reach for the ballot. Yes we can.

When there was despair in the dust bowl and depression across the land, she saw a nation conquer fear itself with a New Deal, new jobs and a new sense of common purpose. Yes we can.

When the bombs fell on our harbor and tyranny threatened the world, she was there to witness a generation rise to greatness and a democracy was saved. Yes we can.

She was there for the buses in Montgomery, the hoses in Birmingham, a bridge in Selma, and a preacher from Atlanta who told a people that "We Shall Overcome." Yes we can.

A man touched down on the moon, a wall came down in Berlin, a world was connected by our own science and imagination. And this year, in this election, she touched her finger to a screen, and cast her vote, because after 106 years in America, through the best of times and the darkest of hours, she knows how America can change. Yes we can.
America, we have come so far. We have seen so much. But there is so much more to do. So tonight, let us ask ourselves -- if our children should live to see the next century; if my daughters should be so lucky to live as long as Ann Nixon Cooper, what change will they see? What progress will we have made?

This is our chance to answer that call. This is our moment. This is our time -- to put our people back to work and open doors of opportunity for our kids; to restore prosperity and promote the cause of peace; to reclaim the American Dream and reaffirm that fundamental truth -- that out of many, we are one; that while we breathe, we hope, and where we are met with cynicism, and doubt, and those who tell us that we can't, we will respond with that timeless creed that sums up the spirit of a people:

Yes We Can. Thank you, God bless you, and may God Bless the United States of America.

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

[Cory Duchesne]

These are the kind of posts that define the dark side of GF rhetoric. The side of it that can be seen as elistists, haters and 'pain people'. This is what can happen when a person values objectivity in a way that disrespects the everlasting power of the emotional world. It is 100% false that anyone needs to spend any significant time navigating dispair or any negative emotion. At the very first sign of them you make an EARTH SHATTERING MOVEMENT AND TURN BACK TO THE LIGHT!!!!

You misunderstand, Skip. Despair is the root of increased power. It makes your hopes bigger and better. Darwin suffered immensely for realizing natural selection/evolution, and it was very hard for him to face the world confidently with it, because his will to power was so profoundly at odds to the hopes of everyone else.

But despair doesn't have to be this big, long drawn out intense feeling. As you become more sophisticated, the darkness becomes quite light and easy. It's a place you go to get more information, so that you can return to hope as a stronger person. To doubt is to despair. Doubt is good.

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

To doubt is to despair. Doubt is good.

Ah, now I understand what you are trying to say. I disagree with your parameters to "despair" as that word conjures something deeper in the hell realms - which is not necessary for growth or improvement. Where avoidance of pain is an even stronger motivator than greed, there are a variety of motivators that are at least somewhat effective on their own - making despair (a feeling that quickly becomes insufferable) not only not necessary for growth, but viewable as a poor motivator for growth due to the urgency of despair not permitting so much thought to what the best course of action might be, but rather a more instinctual motivator to just move whether up, down, or sideways.

If you are going to pick all of the motivators apart to find if there is any level of pain involved - even greed itself could be viewed as the avoidance of pain. To that extent I could marginally agree with you, with the caveat that mostly this is a semantics and perspective point. A glass that is half full is in fact also half empty (or totally full of air and water and totally empty of pencils, etc.).

[Cory Duchesne]

To doubt is to despair. Doubt is good.

Ah, now I understand what you are trying to say. I disagree with your parameters to "despair" as that word conjures something deeper in the hell realms - which is not necessary for growth or improvement.

This highly empirical statement of yours flies in the face of the evidence in both you and me. If things went well in your marriage, you probably would have ended up quite a bit less aware as a person, living your domestic bliss. Instead, the pain of your despair forced you to find alternatives that involved expanding your mind to gain more control and less unwanted surprise. I had a similar situation, I was content in a limited mind frame, but nature destroyed the world I created and tried to preserve. The painful memories and sense of loss were crucial to a sense of healthy orientation. How can you know what is good without relating it to the bad?

Furthermore, when you find something good, you have to analyze and question whether or not it is really good, or just another illusory good. Again, despair returns, but this time it's an active exploration of despair, rather than the passive crumbling into despair.

And in the biological world, just look at the destruction of natural selection and it's relation to punctuated equilibrium. Catastrophe and crisis accelerates evolution. It is the same with human psychology - when we have our immature hopes thwarted, the pain of despair, sorrow, disappointment and shame creates a passion in the human being, and with intelligence, that passion is invested in making sure the pain does not repeat itself. In other words, pain spurns us on to learn.

Human beings generally begin their development with crude personal crisis and catastrophe, similar to natural selection in the biological world. Much, if not most, of what we value gets destroyed against our will, and a few valuable things are kept. As we become more sophisticated, our development resembles "artificial selection" where we actively destroy things that would make us happy in the short term, but would cause enslavement in the long term. Again, it's the difference between passive despair (the kind people have when they have mid life crisis), or active despair (this is the despair of an advanced person, such as myself).

Where avoidance of pain is an even stronger motivator than greed

If by "avoidance of pain", you are referring to psychological pain, then you are committing a false dichotomy. Greed is how we avoid pain. Through greed, we avoid the painful (and illusory) sensation of being small and insignificant.

there are a variety of motivators that are at least somewhat effective on their own - making despair (a feeling that quickly becomes insufferable) not only not necessary for growth, but viewable as a poor motivator for growth due to the urgency of despair not permitting so much thought to what the best course of action might be, but rather a more instinctual motivator to just move whether up, down, or sideways.

I'm just asking people to question their hopes and aspirations, for the sake of refining or improving them. Asking questions to oneself can be uncomfortable, because it means the potential loss of our current hopes. But most of us don't realize our hopes are often not our friend, but are in fact traps. There are intelligent hopes and foolish hopes.

If you are going to pick all of the motivators apart to find if there is any level of pain involved - even greed itself could be viewed as the avoidance of pain.

Clearly it is.

To that extent I could marginally agree with you, with the caveat that mostly this is a semantics and perspective point. A glass that is half full is in fact also half empty (or totally full of air and water and totally empty of pencils, etc.).

It is not semantics, what I'm saying is well thought out, and well written. I also don't see any point to ignoring perspectives, they are unavoidable and valuable.

[windhawk]

Despair

Lifting his eyes to the burning sun,
He cried, "Dear God why? Why me?"

And later finding that the sunlight had stolen his eyes,
He smiled knowingly, for an old friend had returned.


Windhawk, 1973