The Pot Calling the Kettle Black???

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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Ryan Rudolph
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Re: The Pot Calling the Kettle Black???

Post by Ryan Rudolph »

BM,
I don't know what you mean by A.I.
Artificial Intelligence.
Yet they all seemed to quickly forget this critical factor and instead focused on speaking on the mechanics and the results of enlightenment and the ills of the world which was of absolutely no real value (save for offering a shallow intellectual understanding and bait for endless and meaningless discussion, argument, and debate) to anyone who hadn't first undergone the breakdown and breakthrough experience. Hence if a man is going to be of any real value in finally bringing real light into the world an entirely new approach, teaching, and message will be needed.
The breakdown process for me was a series of years reluctantly discovering how I was confused or mistaken. The brain was confused by language, confused by ideas, and confused by the nature of the ego and the way cognition operates in general. So isn’t the best approach to enlightenment in pointing out how people are mistaken in how they think about the world and themselves? There is wisdom of the self, how the unenlightened brain distorts thinking, but then there is wisdom of the world, how the world works, business, science, politics and all the rest of it. A whole individual seems to be one that is capable of not only a deep analysis of the psyche, but also able to think deeply about what is happening in the world in other related disciplines.

And A fall into total insanity isn’t necessary in my opinion. It could be more gradual. For instance: The individual starts off somewhat unconscious, and unable to think about things correctly, but in time and influence, is able to resolve ignorance in steps. It isn’t necessary a flash of lightning that blows away their conditioned consciousness and leaves nothing but ashes, but rather perhaps small consistent electrical shocks, where the internal structure is modified, eroded, modified, eroded, and a sane conscious mind eventually solidifies, where the old has vanished.

However, I should point out that an individual who is susceptible to enlightenment has certain traits from the outset. They have a robust self (that can take mental pain), have a streak of intellectual curiosity, a desire for greatness, a loathing for the ordinary, and perhaps an over senstitivity to the injustice of the world. Among other traits. The point is that someone who has the goods for enlighenment needs certain traits from the outset.

Diebert,
Mistreat the people, push them to the limits, and that for thousands of years - and then suddenly, because of nature straying, because of a spark bolting from that terrible igniting energy, the genius springs up. - This is what history tells me. Horrible vision! Woe! I can't stand you! (Fragmente III 1874-76)
I might suggest another theory that could have held some truth. Among everything you pointed out Diebert. I believe that despite the cleansing nature of wisdom, many men attempting to live the path of wisdom get stuck with part of their shadow. It never goes away, but remains in the background, controlling their cognition. Perhaps many men who go insane couldn’t handle the continuous pull back of their shadow, and in the face of such conflict between the logical self, and the irrational emotional self, something snaps, there is an inability to live with and cope with ‘what is’, there is the ideal of perfection, and then there is ‘what is’ and the self so strongly desires perfection that the continual emergence of imperfection in the mind creates a conflict, a friction, that causes stress, and can lead to a sort of insanity. I’m not sure if this had anything to do with Nietzsche, as I haven’t put any effort into understanding his ‘story’, but it is a possibility, perhaps not for him, but for others.
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Bob Michael
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Re: The Pot Calling the Kettle Black???

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Ryan: So isn’t the best approach to enlightenment in pointing out how people are mistaken in how they think about the world and themselves?

Bob: I think the best approach is sharing with others how lost 'we' once were, what happened, and then fully exemplifying what the enlightened life is like.

Ryan: And a fall into total insanity isn’t necessary in my opinion. It could be more gradual.

Bob: A fall into total insanity remains necessary in my opinion. And while the renewing of the mind will very likely be gradual, I feel a 'burning bush' type of experience is absolutely necessary in order for the necessary shift in mind or brain function to take place. Without which any change will be on a superficial level rather than on a deeply edifying one.

Ryan: However, I should point out that an individual who is susceptible to enlightenment has certain traits from the outset.

Bob: Yes I agree, and this fact prompted my thread herein entitled: 'Different' From Day One. And possessing an extrordinarily sensitive and finely-formed organism (primarily neurologicalIy) I feel is the key to it all. And like it's been said: He who follows the Infinite has been called by the Infinite. Though very few ever hear the call and fewer yet ever fully heed it.
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Characteristics of Nietzsche's Free Spirit

Playful curiosity - the final metamorphosis of spirit is to be a child, a free spirit who dances across truths, beliefs, and values. A free, independent mind and spirit "cannot be taught, one must 'know' it from experience" and from questioning everything. (Beyond Good and Evil, p. 155)

Laughing - throughout his writings he emphasizes laughing. Zarathustra says to laugh ten times a day (p. 24); it is important to laugh at oneself, confirm the validity of insights and discoveries with laughter, and let wisdom about all aspects of the human experiences be coupled with gaiety and joy.

Self-actualization - Nietzsche was compelled to explore and understand his own nature. He wanted to find out how his mind worked and the way that thoughts and sentiments influence human actions. He said, "We ourselves want to be our own experiments, and our own subjects of experiment." (Joyful Wisdom, p. 248)

Paradoxical - throughout his writing he makes reference to the paradoxes, opposites, and antitheses in himself and the new human. About Zarathustra he said, "all opposites are in him bound together into a new unity." (Ecce Homo, p. 106) He described himself as lonely and friendly, decadent and decent, terrible and beneficent, and Janus faced. He wrote "viewed from his angle, my life is simply amazing. For the task of transvaluing values, more abilities were necessary perhaps than could ever be found combined in one individual; and above all, opposing abilities which must not be mutually inimical and destructive." (Ecce Homo, p. 45 - Kaufmann)

Synergistic - he was deeply bothered seeing how much human energy was wasted through people trying to live by values and beliefs taught to them. He was distressed by the harm people do to themselves and others in trying to act unselfishly. He tried to tell, teach, and show people how life could be better for everyone if, through a process of experimenting, developing their own values, and enjoying a healthy selfishness, they became free spirited individuals.

Sensitivity - he stated, "I have in this sensitivity psychological antennae with which I touch and take hold of every secret: all the concealed dirt at the bottom of many a nature, perhaps conditioned by bad blood but whitewashed by education, is known to me on first contact." Being around people was so difficult for him that he needed many periods of solitude to recover, and to retum to himself with "the breath of a free light playful air..." (Ecce Homo, p. 48-49)

Toughness - with enthusiasm Nietzsche describes the new human as "better and badder," as needing hardness, as being strong willed. He says, "another form of sagacity and self-defense consists in reacting as seldom as possible." (EH p. 63) He observes that all creators are hard. They have to be because they are, in the act of creating something new, destroying the old. He says, "We premature born of a yet undemonstrated future need...a new health, a stronger, shrewder, tougher, more daring, more cheerful health than any has been hitherto...a great health." (Ecce Homo, p. 101)

Serendipity - throughout his writings he talks about the value of an illness. "The man who lies in bed sometime ...gains wisdom from the leisure forced on him by his illness." "It was sickness that brought me to reason." (Ecce Homo, p. 56); "It was in the years of my lowest vitality that I ceased to be a pessimist." (Ecce Homo, p. 40) He also said that with every hurt or injury he revitalized himself and became stronger.

http://www.theintrovertzcoach.com/schiz ... #emergence
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COMMONALITY AMONGST THE WORLD'S MYSTICS:

If you study the life of past mystics you'll find they share several things in common:

First, they all speak of an induction – or of a need to learn/realize a new level of understanding. They all speak of a fundamental shift in consciousness (be it called awakening, realization, divination, or being born again).

Second, they all tell of making a journey into and through a despair process of being "undone" as the precursor to this fundamental shift in consciousness--be it through experiencing 40 days and nights in the wilderness, starving under the boddhi tree, facing the dark night of the soul, or the hero's journey. There is a Journey of metamorphosis that all mystics have undergone in some way.

Third, it is an inner journey that must be taken up and navigated alone. This is a hallmark of the mystic's realization: The reason the journey must be alone is because that which must be faced, seen, and surrendered in order that something new can emerge, is only possible through sustaining the fear and despair process of being alone and meeting the ultimate and fundamental fear of "non-being" and annihilation.

Fourth, they all seem to realize the frustration of being misunderstood by those who have not yet been through the awakening journey -- "those who have ears to hear, let him hear." A great deal of the mystical writings are devoted almost exclusively to the fact that fundamental spiritual truth cannot be understood by the intellect nor correctly
put into words. Forever, the great spiritual teachers have tried through the insufficiency of words to point toward that which can ever and only be experienced and known on a level that is before and beyond the mind. This is something unfathomable to those who have not yet had this breakthrough revelation - and particularly so in our contemporary culture that has become so overly reliant and blinded by the limiting paradigm of the scientific method that forever reduces our understanding of intelligence to that which is sensory, measurable and linear in nature. (...Life isn't (only or always) linear .. In fact it rarely is, except in man-made constructions and habituated uses of the mind.)

http://www.rondalarue.com/PAGES/WRITE%2 ... ystic.html
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Ryan: I believe that despite the cleansing nature of wisdom, many men attempting to live the path of wisdom get stuck with part of their shadow. It never goes away, but remains in the background, controlling their cognition.

Bob: Call it the 'shadow', but it's still the conditioned 'self', the cowardly and security seeking 'self' that prevents a total cleansing. Along with the refusal to look reality squarely in the eye.

Ryan: Perhaps many men who go insane couldn’t handle the continuous pull back of their shadow, and in the face of such conflict between the logical self, and the irrational emotional self, something snaps, there is an inability to live with and cope with ‘what is’.

Bob: I think going mad or insane is the result of a combination of clearly seeing reality (which only an extremely sensitive organism is capable of doing) and then not being able or willing to become pure Spirit. Or being totally driven by the Infinite in one's every word, thought, and deed.
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Ryan Rudolph
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Re: The Pot Calling the Kettle Black???

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BM,
Call it the 'shadow', but it's still the conditioned 'self', the cowardly and security seeking 'self' that prevents a total cleansing. Along with the refusal to look reality squarely in the eye.
But the individual needs security. And cognition is the only way one can get it. I think the individual needs to be balanced in the sense that they are able to find a way to survive, and provide their own security for themselves. I do not believe in totally abandoning life, and living in a temple, or attempting to hide from the capitalist system or life. I think it takes courage to face the system/life head on, with all ones awareness, and figure out a way to adapt to it, without losing ones sanity.

However, one shouldn't be obsessed with security, but security is a necessary part of survival. One needs clothes, food, shelter, and relationships with others. This seems like a very logical thing. To think about how to keep these things in ones life. I went through a stage where I gave up everything, and denied life, but I wasn't happy with it at all. I felt like I was denying life's experience to prove how tough I was, but I think one can experience life's dangers, but with a different attitude, with a different attitude to possessions, people, ideas and things in general.

I see everything now as fleeting appearances, a pleasurable coffee no different than a woman shaking her booty in your direction, it all doesn't matter, it all it just appearance. And so I believe you can still experience the world, and even have attachments if you realize there is nothing special, fixed about them, how they can easily go away, and easily be replaced with another. Basically, if you refuse to mentally create a future with your attachments, they do not have as much power over you. However, there might be a bit of addiction due to habituation, but the physical body gets over that sort of loss relatively quickly. The mental anguish is the serious part, and that is caused by our mental relationship to the attachment, not the attachment itself.
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Bob Michael
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Re: The Pot Calling the Kettle Black???

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Ryan: But the individual needs security. And cognition is the only way one can get it. I think the individual needs to be balanced in the sense that they are able to find a way to survive, and provide their own security for themselves. I do not believe in totally abandoning life, and living in a temple, or attempting to hide from the capitalist system or life. I think it takes courage to face the system/life head on, with all ones awareness, and figure out a way to adapt to it, without losing ones sanity.

Bob: Yes, but how many enlightened men provide their own security by the sweat of their own brow? Most of them live in ivory towers like privledged characters, while having others wait on them hand and foot. Many of them also never really lived and suffered in the real world. Hence they could be said to have become self-satisfied, complacent, and security-seeking. And in some cases downright freeloaders and in other cases greedy money-grubbers. Which is surely not to be totally free of the self. Nor is it to know love in all its glory. And these kinds will be of no value in the liberation of any of their fellows.

Ryan: However, one shouldn't be obsessed with security, but security is a necessary part of survival. One needs clothes, food, shelter, and relationships with others. This seems like a very logical thing. To think about how to keep these things in ones life. I went through a stage where I gave up everything, and denied life, but I wasn't happy with it at all. I felt like I was denying life's experience to prove how tough I was, but I think one can experience life's dangers, but with a different attitude, with a different attitude to possessions, people, ideas and things in general.

Bob: Personally, my life counts for nothing. I no longer have any selfish wants or needs. My only concern and true joy in life is seeing others come to life, to fullness of human being. So I need only the minimal basic essentials that are necessary for me to be a perfect instrument of the Infinite. And to serve the Infinite is to serve one's fellow human beings. And so long as I serve the Infinite well I have no need whatsoever to ever fear that my needs won't be taken care of. It's been said that "greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends". Which to me doesn't mean diving on a live grenade but totally dying to the enculturated self or conditioned self-will. Whereby one will automatically become a perfect living embodiment of love and will be a genuinely effective servant and liberator of others.
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