The Pot Calling the Kettle Black???

[Bob Michael]

"The root problem with U.G.(Krishnamurti), the one that underlies all the other problems outlined above, is that he has no bodhicitta. By this I mean he has no desire to become perfect. He is not willing to go all the way and eliminate his delusions completely. He holds onto a portion of his ego in order to enjoy life." (David Quinn)

http://www.theabsolute.net/minefield/ug.html

[Ryan Rudolph]

U.G's main weakness is that he often lacked a certain carefulness in how he spoke with people. And he didn't attempt to perfect his language or how his teaching came off to others. I think he had wisdom, but he didn't put much effort in its presentation, or filtering himself in how he dealt with people. He was literally the dog of enlightenment.

If you analyze Quinn's posts or wisdom of the infinite, I believe he put a bit more effort into making the language a bit more accessible for beginners, and easy to understand. And his posts are blunt, sharp and to the point, but not without consideration.

I think that is what Quinn was attempting to criticize, the fact that UG's teaching style created more confusion than enlightenment for many followers because he was quite sloppy in its presentation and his dealings with others.

As far as his imperfections, I think he was a bit more accepting of certain things, and lumped it all into the "natural state". Meaning, he concluded that much of our biology cannot be transcended. And I cannot say that I completely disagree with him. His main fault is that if he was angry, he got angry at people, meaning, he didn't value rationality for its own sake. A rational philosopher would probably filter his anger, and try to be a bit more gentle, and use logic, whereas U.G made the assumption that because certain emotions cannot be transcended, they are perfectly acceptable to express. Anger seemed to be his emotional vice to me. And he made no apologies for flipping out at people, which he didn't quite a bit, and he enjoyed making a spectacle of the whole thing, which could be interpreted as a form of egoism.

Overall, I think he went as far as he could go for his temperament, disposition and environment. Every man will still have a certain amount of imperfection, as I do not believe absolute perfection is possible, not without the aid of technology that is not available yet.

Same with Quinn, he has his imperfections, we all do, but all we can do is transcend what is possible, and live with the rest. That is the realistic way to look at it.

[Bob Michael]

U.G's main weakness is that he often lacked a certain carefulness in how he spoke with people. And he didn't attempt to perfect his language or how his teaching came off to others. I think he had wisdom, but he didn't put much effort in its presentation, or filtering himself in how he dealt with people. He was literally the dog of enlightenment.

U. G. Krishnamurti most surely experienced a radical transformation of consciousness which he referred to as his "Calamity". Whereby he returned to what he called his "natural state". A state of mind, body, and spirit whereby his organism came to operate out of a purely intuitive mode rather than from the old conditioned "self-protective thought" mode as he stated it. As a result of this transformation he was extemely insightful into the human condition and/or human nature. However he, like many other enlightened beings, lacked the organismal sensitivity and accompanying seriousness, courage, and perseverance that was necessary to perfectly understand himself, his fellows, and what enabled him to discover this rare state of being. Which is absolutely necessary in order for any enlightened being to develop an approach that will be truly effective in the enlightenment of others. However, personally, and in spite of his limitations and shortcomings, I find U. G. was very helpful in my own journey towards self-understanding and growth towards perfection. As were quite a few other enlightened people even though they too ultimately fell short of the mark. Including some of David Quinn's online writings and compilations of truths and wisdom.

Surely, as you say, no one has ever reached "absolute perfection". Which is not necessarily a must. However, the key to it all is to develop a 'perfect approach' for the effective awakening and enlightenment of others. Which has yet to be done by anyone to my knowledge. So the point I was trying to make is that while David Quinn rightly faults U. G. for not desiring to "become perfect" and develop "a full blown consciousness of God", I feel the very same thing is true of himself. Hence in this respect we have 'the pot calling the kettle black'. Though like U. G. it's possible he may not be capable of doing these things either.

Possessing, understanding, and giving lip-service to the Truth is rather easy and has been accomplished by many. But fully living in the Light of the Truth is what makes men who can be a real asset to our dark and fallen human world. Where are these sort of men I ask?

[Ryan Rudolph]

BM,

As far as the calamity, I read into it, and I suspect he made up the whole story due to how he enjoyed fooling people - another form of egoism. I don't actually believe in an actual event as he describes that transforms the individual's consciousness.

All I believe happens is that logical realizations and reflection destroys mental blocks, delusions, and gives more space and openness in the mind to think and analyze the world. Less exciting, but more likely the truth. The less exciting explanation is usually the truth.

BM,

I find U. G. was very helpful in my own journey towards self-understanding and growth towards perfection. As were quite a few other enlightened people even though they too ultimately fell short of the mark. Including some of David Quinn's online writings and compilations of truths and wisdom.

I have been helped along the way by many thinkers, and that is why I never dismiss anyone totally. Each has shortcomings, and each has cognitive strengths. And by analyzing the weaknesses, it can help mature oneself. However, there is a point where it becomes pointless to judge someone's shortcomings. All you can judge is that they exhibit a large degree of rationality, with some hardwired shortcomings. That is why I don't believe there is one way to live the truth, although I believe the expression of rationality does look very similar.

But fully living in the Light of the Truth is what makes men who can be a real asset to our dark and fallen human world. Where are these sort of men I ask?

[jupiviv]

The bad thing about Krishnamurti is that his entire philosophy was basically created to please the people who supported him. From what I've read of his writings, and the one or two videos of him that I've seen on Youtube, this is very obvious(at least to me.) And the kind of people who were/are his disciples - they're definitely not thinkers. They just want to follow someone, and follow an ideology. They're just like the disciples of all the other numerous fake sages of this world.

Yes, Krishnamurti was probably deeper than most of the so-called spiritual teachers, but not much.

[Bob Michael]

As far as the calamity, I read into it, and I suspect he made up the whole story due to how he enjoyed fooling people - another form of egoism. I don't actually believe in an actual event as he describes that transforms the individual's consciousness. All I believe happens is that logical realizations and reflection destroys mental blocks, delusions, and gives more space and openness in the mind to think and analyze the world. Less exciting, but more likely the truth. The less exciting explanation is usually the truth.

I've personally undergone such death and rebirth experiences very similar to U. G.'s. And other men whose lives I've thoroughly examined, most notably J. Krishnamurti, Osho, Gopi Krishna, and Eckhart Tolle, have all gone though such experiences too. And it remains my view that unless a man undergoes such a radical shift of consciousness or brain mode functioning he'll not come to experience genuine enlightenment or fullness of human being. Which I find makes life become quite exciting and alive.

I have been helped along the way by many thinkers, and that is why I never dismiss anyone totally. Each has shortcomings, and each has cognitive strengths. And by analyzing the weaknesses, it can help mature oneself. However, there is a point where it becomes pointless to judge someone's shortcomings. All you can judge is that they exhibit a large degree of rationality, with some hardwired shortcomings. That is why I don't believe there is one way to live the truth, although I believe the expression of rationality does look very similar.

I find judging other peoples' shortcomings can be of value if we take our findings back to ourselves to see if we are guilty of the same things. I too have been able to learn from the mistakes and failings of others, which I find can be an asset and a saver of time and energy.

[Bob Michael]

The bad thing about Krishnamurti is that his entire philosophy was basically created to please the people who supported him. From what I've read of his writings, and the one or two videos of him that I've seen on Youtube, this is very obvious(at least to me.) And the kind of people who were/are his disciples - they're definitely not thinkers. They just want to follow someone, and follow an ideology. They're just like the disciples of all the other numerous fake sages of this world. Yes, Krishnamurti was probably deeper than most of the so-called spiritual teachers, but not much.

I think U. G. is one of many examples of the fact that attaining to enlightenment or genius is no guarantee that a man is of sound and sane mind or that he will be of any real value to his fellows and the human evolutionary process.

[Ryan Rudolph]

BM,

I've personally undergone such death and rebirth experiences very similar to U. G.'s. And other men whose lives I've thoroughly examined, most notably J. Krishnamurti, Osho, Gopi Krishna, and Eckhart Tolle, have all gone though such experiences too. And it remains my view that unless a man undergoes such a radical shift of consciousness or brain mode functioning he'll not come to experience genuine enlightenment or fullness of human being. Which I find makes life become quite exciting and alive.

I'm not denying brief mystical experiences, where ones consciousness seems increasingly sharp, undivided, and connected to something much more vast...

However, that is not what U.G was talking about with the calamity. The calamity for him was a long torturous period of physical and mental events, leading to a final transformative event. He goes into great detail, and it all sounds like crap to me. Sounds like he enjoyed fooling people, and enjoyed the attention. He wasn't perfect in this sense, he still had egotistical motivations that kept his action less than pure. He wanted to seem like Jesus on the cross to his followers. Probably the same motivation little boys have when they fake injuries at school to gain the attention from peers.

[Blair]

Head over to realism.yuku.com if you want to see a bunch of risible, slithering doucheweasels truly demonstrating Pot calling the Kettle Black.

[paco]

I am a father of enlightenment!

[Kunga]

...

[Bob Michael]

I'm not denying brief mystical experiences, where ones consciousness seems increasingly sharp, undivided, and connected to something much more vast...However, that is not what U.G was talking about with the calamity. The calamity for him was a long torturous period of physical and mental events, leading to a final transformative event. He goes into great detail, and it all sounds like crap to me. Sounds like he enjoyed fooling people, and enjoyed the attention. He wasn't perfect in this sense, he still had egotistical motivations that kept his action less than pure. He wanted to seem like Jesus on the cross to his followers. Probably the same motivation little boys have when they fake injuries at school to gain the attention from peers.

I would suggest you examine some of the details of the transformative experiences of the other men whose names I've mentioned previously. You'll find that their experiences also included bizarre events and that they were all totally out of commission so far as 'normal living' goes for considerable periods of time. And I have experienced these same things myself. My dark night of the soul experiences (as I sometimes refer to them) involved being committed to mental health facilities on several occasions. I heard it said once that in order to ever become truly sane one must go deep into insanity and hopefully come out the other side unscathed by the experience. I fully agree. Along the way (1984) I picked up the following article from a source that I no longer remember which somewhat helped me understand what was taking place in me. At the time my knowledge and understanding of enlightenment, the spiritual life, and the various men who traveled it was very limited.
____________________________________________________________

Zen practioners must accept the fact that while in meditation they are likely to suffer one or more of the three maladies.

Kon - Sleepiness

San - Instability

Chin - A grave malady that always leads to unhappy results. It is a state in which one is free from sleepiness and instability and all mentalization ceases. One feels gay, immaculate; one can go on in zazen (meditation) for hours on end. One has a feeling that all things are equal, neither existent nor non-existent, right nor wrong. Those possessed by chin regard it as satori (enlightenment), a most dangerous delusion. If you were to remain in this state, you would go far astray. At such times, in fact, you must have the greatest doubt.
____________________________________________________________

While I don't fully agree with the above view, nor was I ever a 'zen practioner', what I found important in it is the ceasing of mentalization (whereby one loses the sense of being existent or non-existent and the sense of right and wrong) which occurs when a radical shift of consciousness takes place in a person. Or at least this has been my experience. And I equate this with U. G.'s view that when a person's mind and body ceases to operate in the old long-conditioned and functioning 'self-protective thought mode', when that thought "loosens the whole metabolism is agog." And I feel that one can not only go 'far astray' as the above article says, but one may even wind up permanently insane or even dead as the result of undergoing such an experience. But this complete and absolute (and 'doubtless') 'letting go' I feel is absolutely necessary in order to experience genuine enlightenment or a totally new state of being.

Granted U. G. tended to be excessively friviolous and lacking in seriousness, but I think he was an honest man who holds no copyrights to any of his writings which are offered freely online. Or at least he was as honest as he was constitutionally capable of being. Though I also feel he was essentially a failure so far as being geniunely instrumental in the awakening or enlightenment of his fellows. Yet I hold the same view regarding many others, including all of those I've mentioned previously (J. K., Osho, Gopi Krishna, & Tolle). These men certainly all had things of value to offer others, yet they all had limitations and lacked the right approach for the awakening of others. I also feel that none of them ever attained to fullness of manhood either.

[Ryan Rudolph]

Bm,

My dark night of the soul experiences (as I sometimes refer to them) involved being committed to mental health facilities on several occasions. I heard it said once that in order to ever become truly sane one must go deep into insanity and hopefully come out the other side unscathed by the experience.

Have you ever considered the possibility that the mental issues you experienced had nothing to do with a transformative experience, but rather just the inevitable effects of life or being exposed to philosophy that is threatening to the ego?

I also feel that none of them ever attained to fullness of manhood either.

I do not think in terms of manhood. I think it turns of rationality/honesty and the ability to think deeply, and most of the men you mentioned were rare thinkers in their own right. They were able to handle the bulk of enlightened thought.

And I equate this with U. G.'s view that when a person's mind and body ceases to operate in the old long-conditioned and functioning 'self-protective thought mode', when that thought "loosens the whole metabolism is agog." And I feel that one can not only go 'far astray' as the above article says, but one may even wind up permanently insane or even dead as the result of undergoing such an experience.

I think there are many ways to break down the conditioned structures in the brain. logic, drugs, and exposure to profound art are all possibilities, and a mind that cannot handle it is usually a mind that has strong conditioning, and part of the conditioning remains, which creates a sort of conflict between the unconditioned and the conditioned. However, individuals who are unable to transcend all conditioning can merely learn to accept the conditioned part that cannot be transcended, rather than insanity. A better option.

[Philosophaster]

Head over to realism.yuku.com if you want to see a bunch of risible, slithering doucheweasels truly demonstrating Pot calling the Kettle Black.

You were banned from realism.yuku.com because you were apparently incapable of writing anything other than insults like the one above.

[Dan Rowden]

Oh, he knows why he was banned. It's part of his charm to pretend he doesn't and/or that it was unexpected or unwarranted. That's our Prince.

[Unidian]

I consider myself more of a sauntering doucheweasel.

[Blair]

slobbering turdburper.

[Bob Michael]

Have you ever considered the possibility that the mental issues you experienced had nothing to do with a transformative experience, but rather just the inevitable effects of life or being exposed to philosophy that is threatening to the ego?

Yes. The effects of a life lived largely by conditioned self-will along with clearly and deeply seeing the horrifying and tragic nature of the human condition was threatening to my ego which eventually lead to a breakdown and breakthrough. Which most definitely could be rightly called a transformative experience. As a result nothing any longer rattles my cage, so to speak, because I no longer live in one. And there are no longer any unanswered questions or questions to ask.

I do not think in terms of manhood. I think it turns of rationality/honesty and the ability to think deeply, and most of the men you mentioned were rare thinkers in their own right. They were able to handle the bulk of enlightened thought.

Ok, I will then say fullness of human being in the male form. And also add that the goal is to go beyond thought and rationality and LIVE in full obedience to the will of the Infinite. Which is where virtually all the heretofore philosophers, gurus, preachers, saviors, etc. have failed.

I think there are many ways to break down the conditioned structures in the brain. logic, drugs, and exposure to profound art are all possibilities, and a mind that cannot handle it is usually a mind that has strong conditioning, and part of the conditioning remains, which creates a sort of conflict between the unconditioned and the conditioned. However, individuals who are unable to transcend all conditioning can merely learn to accept the conditioned part that cannot be transcended, rather than insanity. A better option.

I'm thoroughly convinced that it takes a finely-formed and highly-sensitive organism to fully transcend its encultured conditioning and that such organisms are quite rare. Along with also having and utilizing the courage to thrust oneself into the abyss with complete abandon.

One final thought here: Freud felt that Nietzsche had more deeply penetrating insights into himself than any man who ever lived or who may come to live. I find this to be an interesting and challenging observation.

[Ryan Rudolph]

BM,

As a result nothing any longer rattles my cage, so to speak, because I no longer live in one. And there are no longer any unanswered questions or questions to ask.

Okay, I agree here, but you are missing my main point. You can become rational without the lead up of ‘transformative’ physical events described by U.G krishnamurti. A simple insight can effect the way the brain fires, and a logical insight may cause some suffering, but not the sort of odd experiences U.G goes on about.

Freud felt that Nietzsche had more deeply penetrating insights into himself than any man who ever lived or who may come to live. I find this to be an interesting and challenging observation.

Honestly, I didn’t get into Nietzsche as much as some of the others. I was more influenced by guys like Jiddu Krishnamurti and U.G Krishnamurti. Their language was easier for me to understand, and less cryptic. Actually, I found much of the western philosophy difficult to follow, as the language was a little more complicated.

Although, I was in my late teens when I was trying to read Nietzsche’s work. Many of the posters here love Nietzsche, and rave about him. All of his insights seem to be found in other works, and I haven't been too motivated to read his works.

However, It is interesting to speculate on why Nietzsche went insane. Was it due to social isolation? His fall from academia? His inability to transcend the desire for a female companion? His inability to relate to other people, and connect on some level, even if superficial. I don’t know enough about it to suggest a theory.

It is a subject that interests me: how to maintain ones rationality without going insane, and without totally selling your soul to the world of human desire.

[Bob Michael]

Okay, I agree here, but you are missing my main point. You can become rational without the lead up of ‘transformative’ physical events described by U.G krishnamurti. A simple insight can effect the way the brain fires, and a logical insight may cause some suffering, but not the sort of odd experiences U.G goes on about.

Again my experiences and those of others along with my observations of others makes it clear to me that without the radical transformative shift in consciousness there'll be no new being or the attainment of oneness with the Infinite.

Honestly, I didn’t get into Nietzsche as much as some of the others. I was more influenced by guys like Jiddu Krishnamurti and U.G Krishnamurti. Their language was easier for me to understand, and less cryptic. Actually, I found much of the western philosophy difficult to follow, as the language was a little more complicated.

While I was influenced by many men, J. Krishnamurti seemed to have had the greatest influence on me. Though I've grown to come to see shortcomings in him and many of the others too.

Although, I was in my late teens when I was trying to read Nietzsche’s work. Many of the posters here love Nietzsche, and rave about him. All of his insights seem to be found in other works, and I haven't been too motivated to read his works. However, It is interesting to speculate on why Nietzsche went insane. Was it due to social isolation? His fall from academia? His inability to transcend the desire for a female companion? His inability to relate to other people, and connect on some level, even if superficial. I don’t know enough about it to suggest a theory.

I think Nietzsche knew that the insane dog-eat-dog human world that he clearly saw all around him wasn't going to change in his time, but was only going to continue to degenerate. Hence his collapse into 'insanity'. Personally I don't think he was really as insane as most people thought he was. He simply knew there was no where in the world that he could fit in and made the best of it. I see the outstanding Russian dancer Vaslav Nijinsky, who spent most of his life in a mental institution, in the same sort of light as Nietzsche in this regard. Both were far too keenly aware of the utter lostness and machinelikeness of all the people around them. As I am too, though I continue to maintain my sanity, in spite of losing it on a couple of occasions. Which involved some short-term mental health facility stays. The last one being some 17 years ago.

It is a subject that interests me: how to maintain ones rationality without going insane, and without totally selling your soul to the world of human desire.

This I too found this to be quite a challenge. And it's only in the last 6 years or so, as a result of being fully retired from all vocational entanglements with the human rat-race, that I no longer feel that I'm selling my soul to the world. Though for the past 30 years or so I progressively simplified my life and learned to pinch my pennies in order to minimize my serving 'mammon' as much as possible. Though I didn't always have an easy time of it.

[Ryan Rudolph]

BM,

This I too found this to be quite a challenge. And it's only in the last 6 years or so, as a result of being fully retired from all vocational entanglements with the human rat-race, that I no longer feel that I'm selling my soul to the world. Though for the past 30 years or so I progressively simplified my life and learned to pinch my pennies in order to minimize my serving 'mammon' as much as possible. Though I didn't always have an easy time of it.

yes, I have found the most tolerable jobs are the ones that do not totally enslave your mind or your body, and leave you physically or mentally exhausted. Jobs where you make deliveries, or make small drive-type calls, or even security are the jobs that I have been able to tolerate, and not feel overly burdened by the job itself. However, many jobs would be much more tolerable if they were only part-time, which could be the direction we are moving in with the birth of A.I.

I think Nietzsche knew that the insane dog-eat-dog human world that he clearly saw all around him wasn't going to change in his time, but was only going to continue to degenerate. Hence his collapse into 'insanity'. Personally I don't think he was really as insane as most people thought he was.

That is one possible reason to explain his fall from grace. However, one can logically overcome such an attitude by coming to terms with 'what is'. And realizing that gains for the world come very slowly. And even if the world self-destructs, at least philosophers of the infinite have found some security in wisdom. The wisdom of not relying on external conditions for ones absolute security.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

I heard it said once that in order to ever become truly sane one must go deep into insanity and hopefully come out the other side unscathed by the experience. I fully agree.

This is a topic which always has interested me and also one important area in which I have disagreed with David Quinn. He sees mental illness per definition as 'the other end of the spectrum' which I think only holds true if one redefines mental illness a certain way, filtered through certain values. Personally my understanding is closer to how you are presenting it here, Bob. Surprisingly close actually.

The stories of transformation from UG are to me in at least in part understandable and recognizable but much of it seems quite likely related to peculiarities related to ones own particular nervous system and mental configuration. Some of his description sound strongly Alzheimer related or some other damage to the nervous system. The remarkable thing here for me is not that he suffered from the symptoms he described (boast? why bother?) or that he doesn't seem to question any alternative origin at all (visiting a doctor or something, instead he appears to assume it's some natural process which has to be endured and studied, why?) but that he actually did overcome those calamities, that he didn't got wasted by them or that deterioration didn't set through until death like it happens with Alzheimer or other neurological affections which are in most of the cases progressive. One could argue that all disease, all camality is something to overcome if growth is to be achieved. Perish or flourish!

Chin - A grave malady that always leads to unhappy results. It is a state in which one is free from sleepiness and instability and all mentalization ceases. One feels gay, immaculate; one can go on in zazen (meditation) for hours on end. One has a feeling that all things are equal, neither existent nor non-existent, right nor wrong. Those possessed by chin regard it as satori (enlightenment), a most dangerous delusion. If you were to remain in this state, you would go far astray. At such times, in fact, you must have the greatest doubt.

Several visitors on this forum have shared similar states and one can only hope this forum has made them doubt a bit of that over time -reconsideration. For the simple reason that these processes are completely amoral and will not necessary provide any wisdom either, because she moves and divides like everything else. Although one could say that might not be the goal at such stage - as long one doesn't fool oneself that such would be the case.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

However, It is interesting to speculate on why Nietzsche went insane. Was it due to social isolation? His fall from academia? His inability to transcend the desire for a female companion? His inability to relate to other people, and connect on some level, even if superficial. I don’t know enough about it to suggest a theory.

As far as I can gather from biographical information he was not isolated that much. Many close warm friendships in person and by letter were maintained, more than most here reading I suspect. And those friends never wrote of worrying about his isolation or social incapacity. The loneliness seems to have been in the understanding that there was none to compare his own to at the time. He has to constantly dumb and tone down, words becoming horrible vehicles to steer. Even while many commentators point to similarities in works of precursors and contemporaries, I'm not sure they reached anywhere near the depth and clarity of Nietzsche's peaks, especially the moments he speaks simple, soft or almost jokingly. I find it extremely subtle at times, where others seem in comparison like clumsy, blind operators. But hey, that's me, his biggest fan speaking, his one and only son. :)

What happened to Nietzsche I suspect was a reaction to the decades before. To be able to peak like he did in writing and thinking, the tremendous nervous energy he displays, against the odds and presence of various ailments, might have literally burned up some of himself. Even in his insanity he has been reported to still have moments of serene and extremely lucid responses, however briefly. To me it sounds like a burn-out, or like some Icarus who finally had his wings melted. Philosophy is not just a calm, cold reasoned out affair. That's just one side of it. Nietzsche referred to the cold, quiet mountain tops as well as to the dangers of being struck by lightning. And depending on the channel, I do think the impact of insight and real ratio can have various effects on body and mind. Not necessarily beneficial. It's really amoral! The blood crawls where it can go.

Some stuff from Nietzsche relates to this:

• For a psychologist there are few questions that are as attractive as that concerning the relation of health and philosophy, and if he should himself become ill, he will bring all of his scientific curiosity into his illness. For assuming that one is a person, one necessarily also has the philosophy that belongs to that person; but there is a big difference. In some it is their deprivations that philosophize; in others, their riches and strengths. The former need their philosophy, whether it be a prop, a sedative, medicine, redemption, elevation, or self-alienation. For the latter it is merely a beautiful luxury—in the best cases, the voluptuousness of a triumphant gratitude that eventually still has to inscribe itself in cosmic letters on the heaven of concepts. But in the former case, which is more common, when it is distress that philosophizes, as is the case with all sick thinkers—and perhaps sick thinkers are more numerous in the history of philosophy—what will become of the thought itself when it is subjected to the pressure of sickness? This is the question that concerns the psychologist, and here an experiment is possible. Just as a traveler may resolve, before he calmly abandons himself to sleep, to wake up at a certain time, we philosophers, if we should become sick, surrender for a while to sickness, body and soul—and, as it were, shut our eyes to ourselves. And as the traveler knows that something is not asleep, that something counts the hours and will wake him up, we, too, know that the decisive moment will find us awake, and that something will leap forward then and catch the spirit in the act.. (from foreword The Gay Science)

• Where is the lightning to lick you with its tongue? Where is the madness with which you should be cleansed? (Thus Spoke Zarathustra)

• Mistreat the people, push them to the limits, and that for thousands of years - and then suddenly, because of nature straying, because of a spark bolting from that terrible igniting energy, the genius springs up. - This is what history tells me. Horrible vision! Woe! I can't stand you! (Fragmente III 1874-76)

[Bob Michael]

Yes, I have found the most tolerable jobs are the ones that do not totally enslave your mind or your body, and leave you physically or mentally exhausted. Jobs where you make deliveries, or make small drive-type calls, or even security are the jobs that I have been able to tolerate, and not feel overly burdened by the job itself. However, many jobs would be much more tolerable if they were only part-time, which could be the direction we are moving in with the birth of A.I.

I don't know what you mean by A.I. Though if everyone pulled his own weight in life and there was no greed or power-mongering we could probably all work happily 3 or 4 hours a day, and the world would go round just wonderfully. However, this is not yet to be. Perhaps the most fun and learning job I ever had was driving a taxi some 24 years ago for seven months. It didn't pay much at all but I was living real simple at the time. I too met my 3rd wife on the job. In my early adulthood I worked in 3 factories as a tradesman with the specialty of electrician for about 23 years. And while I started each job with enthusiasm and a good attitude and rather quickly got to the top of the pay scale, sooner or later I would get the shits of the inherent insanity in them all. After that I never really worked a regular or a fulltime job and eventually wound up the last 10 years being self-employed. And today my priority is to fully serve God or the Infinite, which is to serve my fellow man spiritually, rather than serving mammon or trying to serve both, which my experience tells me can't be done with enthusiam, total peace of mind, or sanity.

That is one possible reason to explain his (Nietzsche) fall from grace. However, one can logically overcome such an attitude by coming to terms with 'what is'. And realizing that gains for the world come very slowly. And even if the world self-destructs, at least philosophers of the infinite have found some security in wisdom. The wisdom of not relying on external conditions for ones absolute security.

This may well be, but I find it quite unpleasant living in a world of wall-to-wall human robots. Though it won't drive me crazy as it has other highly-sensitive men who were fully aware of the tragic and horrifying nature of the fallen human species.

[Bob Michael]

The stories of transformation from UG are to me in at least in part understandable and recognizable but much of it seems quite likely related to peculiarities related to ones own particular nervous system and mental configuration. Some of his description sound strongly Alzheimer related or some other damage to the nervous system......

"I am not interested in helping anyone.....Things have gone too far.....What little freedom is still open to mankind will be brought under the control of the state.....Mankind will be robotized on such a scale never dreamt before. What can be done to stop this sort of catastrophe? I say nothing. It is too late." (U. G. K. - 'No Way Out')

The only thing I'll add here regarding U. G. Krishnamurti is that while he was deeply insightful into the nature of life and the 'fallen' (and/or not yet perfected) human condition, he wasn't sufficiently self-knowing. As a result he was impotent in being of any real value in the transformation or enlightenment of others. And I find the same thing is true of virtually all of the heretofore and present enlightened men. Their problem being that they never discovered why they became enlightened while the multitude all around them remained hopelessly stuck in their falsely-conditioned, inauthentic 'selves'. And without this knowledge they were never able to develop the right approach that's necessary in order to be effective in the awakening and radical transformation of others. Another factor in the failure of these men is the fact that rarely, if ever, did any of them have any real and diversified experiences of living and struggling in the real world. Hence they knew the spiritual life far more on an intellectual, analytical, and theoretical level than on a pactical and down-to-earth one.

"Where is the madness with which you should be cleansed?" (Nietzsche - 'Thus Spoke Zarathustra')

The five men I mentioned previously (J. K., U. G. K., Osho, G. Krishna, and Tolle) along with Nietzsche all underwent this journey thorough madness which is necessary to cleanse and renew the brain and attain to genuine enlightenment. Yet they all seemed to quickly forget this critical factor and instead focused on speaking on the mechanics and the results of enlightenment and the ills of the world which was of absolutely no real value (save for offering a shallow intellectual understanding and bait for endless and meaningless discussion, argument, and debate) to anyone who hadn't first undergone the breakdown and breakthrough experience. Hence if a man is going to be of any real value in finally bringing real light into the world an entirely new approach, teaching, and message will be needed.

I'm reminded here of Christ's dictum that, "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God." Which is simply, but gloriously, the state of the mind and heart of someone who is radically transformed and genuinely enlightened.