APOCALYPSE or FAIRY TALE?

[Bob Michael]

Alex:

In order to arrive at that City of God and to see it descend from the Heavens and superimpose itself on this earth, the unruliness of man has to be conquered. He has to be 'yoked' to the plow of culture. And of course, as Nietzsche so interestingly wrote about, this is a long process of 'historical punishment'. To create this civilized, responsive, malleable subject requires generations of torture and violence. Society imposes its rules and any deviation from those rules is severely punished. And that has been our own cultural process. We are people who have been---literally---'whipped into shape'.

Bob:

Yes, but the 'whipping into shape' has been going on for so long now that it has resulted in the vast majority of the species being irreparably neurologically malformed or botched. Rendering most people totally incapable of distinquishing between what is authentic behavior and being and what is not, which is a precondition for undergoing the necessary rebirth or radical psychic transformation. Or one might say one must have the capacity and the courage to deeply smell the universal human fraud and the part he himself is playing in it.

"What is the greatest thing a man can experience? It is that hour of great [self]-contempt." (Nietzsche) Compare with Luke 14: 26.

And I would add here that unless one has a finely-formed and highly-sensitive organism, which stems from optimal circumstances or conditioning in the critical formative years of life, he'll not reach this necessary (break) point and he'll continue to live in the problem rather than in the solution.

"At an absurdly early age, at the age of seven, I already knew that no human words would ever reach me." (Nietzsche)

Alex:

We may think that this process is about 'persuasion' or 'gentle discourse' or 'ethical stimulation', but those methods only work with those who, substantially, have been already domesticated. The process of enforcing this 'will of God', with the outcome of a Heavenly City, is in its essence one of violence against all that which is in resistance, and that is in essence untamed humanity, with all its unconsciousness, desires, self-will and ouright recalcitrance.

Bob:

This enterprise will be a thing of attraction rather than one of promotion, coercion, or enforcing the "will of God". It will be self-governed by the gentle weilding of the 'Force of Truth' within it. And the primary goal of the project will be to undomesticate and fully rehumanize its participants.

"One day or other institutions will be needed in which people live and teach as I understand living and teaching: perhaps even chairs for the interpretation of Zarathustra will be established." (Nietzsche)

Gurdjieff made a valiant attempt to create such an institution but ultimately failed.

Alex:

Our desire to 'get out from under all that' is very interesting to look into. To essentially 'resign' from this historical project, to go back to the 'old ways', to revivify the temples of the old gods, the pagan gods; to forget, to indulge, to waylay. I think we have to take all this into consideration when we examine the 'discourses of rebellion' of our modernity, and also to see to what degree we ourselves are active participants in that rebellion.

Bob:

Rebellion in the traditional sense more often than not is but a redecoration of the same prison. And when it becomes a team endeavor it's surely doomed to fail. Genuine free-spirits lean on no one either psychologically or materially. Nor do they allow others to lean on them.

"The highest intelligence and the warmest heart cannot exist side by side in the same person.....The wise man must resist those extravagant wishes of unintelligent philanthropy because he has a vested interest in the continuance of his type and in the eventual emergence of the highest intelligence. Christ had the warmest of hearts, but he tended to make mankind more stupid siding with the mentallly weak and retarding intellectual progress." (Nietzsche)

[Pam Seeback]

"The highest intelligence and the warmest heart cannot exist side by side in the same person.....The wise man must resist those extravagant wishes of unintelligent philanthropy because he has a vested interest in the continuance of his type and in the eventual emergence of the highest intelligence. Christ had the warmest of hearts, but he tended to make mankind more stupid siding with the mentallly weak and retarding intellectual progress." (Nietzsche)

Bob, Nietzsche no more knew the true heart or mind of Jesus than did I or you, and there he is, interpreting his life as if his interpretations are absolute truths. He also knew nothing of the reality of 'superior' intelligence, for he only had his own with which to relate. Herein lies the deceit of the 'wise' man exposed, his posturing of his collected ideas of human relativism as if they are a universal, objective 'good' thing of 'truth.'

The truthful life is an experiential life. Nietzsche was not a truthful man, for he was full of opinions about women and about the man called Jesus, neither of which he experienced of his own consciousness. Which means that a man has experienced every aspect of being a human being, he has no 'Superman' wisdom to give. Dust in the wind are the so-called 'truths' of 'fully being human.' I understand the desire to bring one's ideal of heaven to earth, but it is an ideal born of one's partially-lived, duality-bound, fragmented human experience, regardless of how full or intense or authentic he or she believes it to be. And since no man can experience the totality of the human experience, the man who believes he has or can imagine such a totality lies to himself, and by default, to all those seeking souls who hunger for the same lie disguised as Truth.

[Bob Michael]

And since no man can experience the totality of the human experience, the man who believes he has or can imagine such a totality lies to himself, and by default, to all those seeking souls who hunger for the same lie disguised as Truth.

Sorry m/a, but you're clearly not in my league or that of those others you blindly criticize. Nor are you likely to ever be. But compassion is certainly in order here as it simply can't be helped and you're surely not alone. Far from it. Finely-formed and highly-sensitive souls, be they male or female, are very rare and extremely hard to come by in these last days.

[Alex Jacob]

• MA writes: "Dust in the wind are the so-called 'truths' of 'fully being human."

________________________________________________________

Movingalways wrote:

• Bob, Nietzsche no more knew the true heart or mind of Jesus than did I or you, and there he is, interpreting his life as if his interpretations are absolute truths. He also knew nothing of the reality of 'superior' intelligence, for he only had his own with which to relate. Herein lies the deceit of the 'wise' man exposed, his posturing of his collected ideas of human relativism as if they are a universal, objective 'good' thing of 'truth.'
  
  The truthful life is an experiential life. Nietzsche was not a truthful man, for he was full of opinions about women and about the man called Jesus, neither of which he experienced of his own consciousness. Which means that a man has experienced every aspect of being a human being, he has no 'Superman' wisdom to give. Dust in the wind are the so-called 'truths' of 'fully being human.' I understand the desire to bring one's ideal of heaven to earth, but it is an ideal born of one's partially-lived, duality-bound, fragmented human experience, regardless of how full or intense or authentic he or she believes it to be. And since no man can experience the totality of the human experience, the man who believes he has or can imagine such a totality lies to himself, and by default, to all those seeking souls who hunger for the same lie disguised as Truth.

It is an interesting angle for a critique on Nietzsche. Since he was in many respects a crippled man. Yet, it is in that, or from that (position) from which he theorized.

Also, even from your perspective, Movingalways and Jufa (you guys are on the same team, right?), Nietzsche was the perfect dead man offering the perfect dead man's commentary on the culture of the dead, destined for death!

The interesting thing here is the notion of Jesus---the Messiah, the Savior, the Advent---as the utterly new and unexperienced.

I will come back and lie down in this glorious coffin with y'all and enact my own brand of seance and necromancy a little later. Spooks!

(PS: A few nights ago I got Nietzsche on the OuiJa board and he sung a wOnDeRfUl version of this song (albeit with a rather thick German accent).

[Dennis Mahar]

Pam's correct.
Ultimately, whatever you say, think, do is so completely and utterly devoid of any substance, significance, relevance, has no meaning in any context you might want to fit it into in a quest to 'matter'.
Whatever it is,
it's only context is that you grasped onto it.
like a drowning sailor grabbing for a lifebouy in a sea of nothing that looks like something.

Even 'in the world, not of the world' has nothing before it, nothing beside it, nothing behind it, nothing over it or under it.
It is nothing except as an attachment that can appear more solid by dint of repetition that makes one spellbound.

Alex and Bob: It's over before you got started.
You've fallen into caricature. That's the joke. You did it.
You moved.

[Alex Jacob]

Dennis, I never was out of nor ever was I in 'caricature'.

"...like a drowning sailor grabbing for a lifebouy in a sea of nothing that looks like something."

There's no need to get depressed Dennis. Many things including TV are getting better and better as time marches on. Take a break, go for a walk, chop wood, carry water, your view may shift without you even being aware of it.

[Dennis Mahar]

There's no need to get depressed Dennis

That would only matter if I attached to it. It's dead in the water.

Alex,
You and Bob are constructing a possible future out of stories based in the past that are not happening now. Conceptions. Life Jackets.

[Alex Jacob]

Dennis wrote: "You and Bob are constructing a possible future out of stories based in the past that are not happening now. Conceptions. Life Jackets."

It all depends on how you choose to inflect it. Although I think there is value in Movingalway's and Jufa's view (if they are working the same angle), it is a way that one might orient onself, stand, in relation to ideas put in motion in the past. What occured in the past is what has made us what we are, we are products of history and processes. We are also creatures of the 'immediate', and in the end it really only matters what a person does with what they have become and what they are. If you think that you are ,somehow, going to 'put an end' to the vast motion that is occuring in the 'you' of this present moment, I have the feeling you might be fooling yourself. And yet, still, one could refer to the immediate experience of someone like Ramakrishna. Or the Buddhists that often are presented here.

One of the things though, a thing that 'interests' me I guess you'd have to say, is how you (just for example) are likely only superficially acquainted with 'the Bible', and perhaps only have a vague idea of what it is all about, and what sortf of treasures are there, even if it is a 'dead', metaphorical region. Because you may not have this appreciation for such treasures that exist (whether Taoist scripture, or Chinese, of Sanskrit, whatever) and come alive through language-access, you may be a representative of a class of person who allows many wonderful things to die, both inside yourself (even in a 'reflected world' which is a double-metaphor), as well as in the kind of metahorical and allegorical profundity of your communications with others. It exists as a possibility that you might not know how to recognize treasures and how to evaluate them. Perhaps, left to yourself, your world would grow increasingly flat. I think there is a terrible downside in that.

Also, I strongly believe that we have to enter into the metaphors in new ways---this is creative work, challenging work---and try to make them live again.

You see, one of my tentative opinions about this forum (to speak generally, a problem) is that some people here seem to have run into a wall in their ability to handle or confront the problems of the present, the problems of knowledge. They are clever people with a certain mental sharpness but often people who seem defective in their ability to creatively handle metaphor. 'Knowledge' and 'knowing' begins to look (to me) like turning around and around in a limited circle.

Since you propose something like a 'conception' and a 'life-jacket' one assumes that, somehow, you are 'beyond' any of this. Yet I would wager that this is definitely NOT the case, but for the sake of a PC image management you might, say, tow some Buddhist line, throw up some Zennish tales. But all that could be just as much as a 'life-jacket' as any other thing, and another way to take refuge in metaphors.

I will certainly agree with you that there are many, many people (the Dead we might call them with a tip of the hat to this present conversation, and Joyce) that exist in a literal graveyard of dead images that drive their present. Who cannot see the nuances. Who may never have had emerge from within themselves something which could be called 'authentic spiritual experience' of an immediate sort. Who knows if they ever have or will ever gain a sense of 'where they are'?

But it doesn't really seem very productive or helpful to anyone to take up refuge in another group of concepts---concepts about concepts.

So, it seems to me that for anyone's experience to be 'valid' it has to include themselves, in their world, with references to how they are getting on, how they are dealing with things.

[Pam Seeback]

And since no man can experience the totality of the human experience, the man who believes he has or can imagine such a totality lies to himself, and by default, to all those seeking souls who hunger for the same lie disguised as Truth.

Sorry m/a, but you're clearly not in my league or that of those others you blindly criticize. Nor are you likely to ever be. But compassion is certainly in order here as it simply can't be helped and you're surely not alone. Far from it. Finely-formed and highly-sensitive souls, be they male or female, are very rare and extremely hard to come by in these last days.

Bob, you are right that we are not in the same league or as I would interpret it, of the same thought pattern. The very last thing I would ever strive to be is part of a collective, regardless of how "finely-formed" or "highly sensitive" or "wise" or "intelligent" or "spiritual" they believed themselves to be. The very idea of group-think makes me shudder.

Let us part ways then. As you once blessed me, I so bless you. :-)

[Dennis Mahar]

Thankyou Alex for not creating standoff out of our apparently diverse stands.

In this way we can have inquiry.

I want to show you how to remember Being.

As distinguished from Being-in-Action, in a World.

I get the old Masters metaphors as pointing out of the House of Language to as m/a puts it : unconditioned mind.

Being-in-Action lives out of contexts that are handed down to us from Worldhood as conditioning.

Let us open up a context.
We'll use Summer.
The question of Summer.

Your screen will flood with concepts/feelings and you will have Summer configurated in such a way that that's the Way Summer is for you.
You will communicate Summer in the way Summer is for you and have to confront a Summer of another that is not the Summer that Summer is for you.

You will Live out of your Summer and that is who you will be...Your context will be your Being-in Action in a World.

Follow so far?

[Alex Jacob]

I am finely-formed and highly sensitive soul and it seems quite simple, Dennis. ;-) Where do we go from here?

[jufa]

Hi Jufa,

You wrote: "Know of no one who can proclaim the kingdom of God, for no one has demonstrated, beyond alegory and abstractness who, what, when, where, and why a God, no less the kingdom of God, exist other then IN ONES HUMAN MIND."

In respect to the last few posts: I don't know exactly where you wish to go. I personally think that much of what you say makes sense. But I don't know where you wish to go with it.

As response to the above quote, I would say that it is exactly in the human mind (human awareness to expand the idea a bit) where this Kingdom of God exists.

It certainly does seem to me to be true that our awareness (our mind, our memory, the whole apparatus) is interestingly and strangely tied to and invested in the reflections as opposed to the 'reality'. Moving Always writes.

• That the man of feeling-intellect lives a metaphorical, reflected, conditioned life - no word or symbol IS the thing. It is amazing to me that most people who have attained even a measure of wisdom can see the truth of this statement, and yet, this wisdom is pushed aside again and again, everyone scrambling to present their metaphorical, reflected, conditioned life as if it is THE 'truth' or a truth.

Yet even with all that, and at least in your presentation, your prose, there is the sense of disembodiment. In what world do you live? Of what does your daily life consist?

What I mean is that 'no matter what' people live in the sort of mental and conceptual world you describe. We are forced to. And still, as I have been trying to point out, there is a way in which awareness (say of 'brahman') refracts down into different levels of consciousness, and into human life.
quote]

Hi Alex! Each man is responsible for the footstep he takes upon his journey from birth to death, and so I am not attempting to persuade you concerning where you must go. This is my position.

Most of mankind, I have found, cannot separate the material thought world which occupy the majority of their thinking, which thinking shape their perceptions to having to live from and by the sweat of their brow, and not from the Spirit reality of Being. What is being stated here is creation is created in the Creator. The final analysis of man's destiny within the earth's dimension will be when man has fulfilled his promise to redeem his mind and soul by following the guidance of Spirit infinity, which rides upon his action words of continuous demonstration of making "ones self of no reputation by taking on the form of a servant, understanding mankind was made in the likeness of men, and himself being found in the fashion of man, becomes humble and obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."

Man must come to realize he has full control of every iota of his being from the invisible to the visible. That it is man who made to the Father all choices of initiation to proceed upon his journey to fulfill the promised covenant while yet within the invisible. Man promised Life that when the fullness of his Purpose had been revived in him while without a body, as we deem a body, he would return to this dimension and purge the dual conscious thoughts he had initiated while journeying on earth before, thus purging all the generations of Adam to himself which he now represents.

As most men come to find when they enter the earth's vibrations, the gulp between the invisible world of Spirit and flesh is also a gulp which demand discipline to be successful in crossing over and being "true to purpose" of the promise made with the Father to be allowed re-entry into this dimension.

A question arise here. Being omnipresent Mind is omniscient and omnipotent, why would this Mind, knowing all things and power to speak The Word which cannot be altered, allow the promise in the first place, then concede to allow man to enter into this dimension knowing failure is inevitable because it is not under the protection of God's principles and patterns? It is because man is the consciousness of the Spirit movement of life within himself, yet, Spirit is the only source of conscious life anywhere and everywhere. This means wherever man goes or does he has to ability to use "the law of the Spirit of life" in and through-out all creation when the sentence of death has been carried out by him.

So regardless of the sweet labels and honey coating of the gospel of righteousness men apply to this and that, Mind does not differentiate between day and night, nor good and evil, nor the thoughts, concepts, opinions, and beliefs of men. The consequence of this is that nothing returns to the individual void. And this means all within the life-blood of that individual is effected by those thoughts issued forth by him. Nothing in man's life - and I mean nothing, from dog to child, to job, to breathing- can claim independence from the affect of man's thinking and interpretations. The human dimension of thoughts and interpretation makes all men vulnerable to the whimsical thoughts and beliefs of the man who does not believe he is the cause and effect of everything objectified by his acknowledgment, and subjected by and of his feelings by-way of his thoughts. As life is a continuum of itself, man's thoughts are a continuum of his living.

When man was made a living soul man then became one complete subject of the objects of his mind, body, and Spirit. But becoming a living soul in this dimension means it is man who took of the earth and shaped his human mentality of the flesh thought which the universal human mind has determined to be the shape of his believed material body. Automatically that of the earth which became man's flesh thought attached themselves also to the inner walls of his soul. Should a being "have such control over your self that you could retrieve your urine from the dust," man has the control of his will to shed the flesh covering he inherited from the mentality of the ancient of days if he adhere to "in all thy ways acknowledge God and he shall direct thy path."

Discernment of reality is lost. Man's lack of discipline of acceptance that his word is the only thing in infinity that matters to his living because -"by thy word thou shalt be justified, and by thy word thou shalt be condemned" - It is man himself who is always the subject victim to his own words. There are no limitation to his words. And regardless of what he believes while in the flesh mentality, he must give account of every word which proceedeth out of his mouth.

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

[Bob Michael]

"The legend of Noah's Ark is a myth referring to esotericism. The building of the "Ark" is the "School," the preparation of men for initiation, for transition to a new life, for new birth. "Noah's Ark," which is saved from the Flood, is the inner circle of humanity."

"The second meaning of the allegory refers to individual man. The flood is death, unavoidable, inexorable. But man can build within himself an "Ark" and assemble in it 'specimens' of everything that is valuable in him. In such a case these specimens will not perish. They will survive death and be born again. Just as man will be saved only through connection with the inner circle, so an individual man can attain personal "salvation" only by means of a link with the inner circle in himself, that is, by connecting himself with the higher forms of consciousness."

(P. D. Ouspensky - 'A New Model of the Universe')
____________________________________________________

On the 'New Birth'.....

"They (Kierkegaard, James, Freud, Adler, Reich, Rank, Schachtel, Fromm, Brown, Lifton, and dozens of others) helped us understand why growth and change were so difficult, even impossible for most people. The challenge of growth and change always goes back to one's earliest childhood, to his basic character. In order to grow he needs to renounce precisely that form of comfort and salvation that have become inseparable from his deepest values as these are grounded in the muscles and nerves of his organism. The Oedipus Complex is the protective umbrella which one feels he needs in order to make life liveable and worthwhile: the easy nurture, the secure gratifications, the convenient lies about life. The person has to renounce precisely that which he feels at least able to renounce - that which is as dear as life itself because it has become the indispensable condition for his life. We can understand, then, that "getting over one's Oedipus" is not a matter of simple reflection about his early family life, or even bringing to consciousness some of the most distasteful events of his childhood, or at least of all a hard, rational scrutiny of one's motives. It is, as the Stoics and Shakespeare had already taught us, the going through hell of a lonely and racking rebirth where one throws off the lendings of culture, the costumes that fit us for life's roles, the masks and panoplies of our standardized heroisms, to stand alone and nude facing the howling elements as oneself - a trembling animal element. In the Christian view of a great poet like Charles Williams one cannot even begin to be an adult unless one has gone through the most heartbreaking baptism of all: the banishment of one's self-respect to Hell; or in our words, the disintegration of the self-esteem that sustains one's character. And as Camus and the existentialists have reminded us, such a growth has elements of a suicide crisis because if it is authentic, one's life is thereby already ended and it would be but a small step to completing the ending physically; suicide may be a real temptation at this time because one has no strength left, no rooting in a sustaining source of power: when, like Lear, a person has thrown off his cultural lendings, he is as weak and helpless as a newborn babe. The question of personality growth and change, if it is deep-going and authentic, is usually whether one will end in madness or suicide or whether one will, somehow, be able to marshal the strength to take the first few new steps in a strange world." (Ernest Becker - 'The Birth and Death of Meaning')

[Bob Michael]

At other times (near the end of his life) Osho seemed close to despair. The best sannyasins could hope for was to survive clandestinely – as an underground resistance movement, as a heresy. For some kind of Nemesis, war or plague or some still undreamt-of horror, was looming over society, and there was no longer any way to avert it. He spoke of a “Noah’s Ark of consciousness,” something which could contain and protect a group of people who were sincerely concerned with meditation. For the only thing which stood a chance of turning the tide on earth was a large number of enlightened individuals, working in concert. “But” he said in discourse, “your growth is so slow, there is every fear that before you become enlightened the world will be gone".....“You are not putting your total energy into meditation, into awareness. It is one of the things that you are doing, amongst many; and it is not even the first priority of your life. I want it to become your first priority…..Immense responsibility rests on you because nowhere else in the whole world are people trying, even in small groups, to achieve enlightenment, to be meditative, to be loving, to be rejoicing. We are a very small island in the ocean of the world, but it does not matter. If a few people can be saved, the whole heritage of humanity, the heritage of all the mystics, of all awakened people, can be saved through you.” ('The Life of Osho' by Sam)
______________________________________________________________

In evolutionary terms, it is necessary to have deviations or mutations in order for the species to advance. These experimenters are exceptional individuals whose life-patterns differ from the life patterns of the herd. They are attempts. They are spiritual pioneers. But Nietzsche fears that society is becoming so deeply herd-like that it will stamp out anyone with a different way of living, so that the experimenters will disappear. ('Nietzsche' by Erich Steiner)

[Dennis Mahar]

Hi Alex,

I am finely-formed and highly sensitive soul and it seems quite simple, Dennis.

What does that mean? Is that like a cover that helps you avoid something?

You're here dragging the past along with you.

[Alex Jacob]

Dennis, you asked: Follow so far?

I answered by riffing off a concurrent conversation, on-going on the thread. (Fine tuned, highly sensative, etc.) It was both a reference to that other conversation and a sort of joke toward you. As if to say, How could I not understand since what you wrote was exceedingly uncomplex.

I was reading some literary criticism, William James commenting on qualities of characters in his brother's fictional works.

These give, he wrote:

• ...an impression like that we often get from people in life: their orbits come out of space and lay themselves for a short time along ours, and then off they whirl again into the unknown, leaving us with little more than an impression of their reality and a feeling of baffled curiosity as to the mystery of the beginning and end of their being.

What's that supposed to mean? you might ask. It is simply a commentary on how I feel about coming into contact with y'all. What bouncing ball of Fate has led us to 'communicate' within virtual chambers that both exist and don't exist and where, like in a Samuel Beckett story, every word, every gesture, every thought is fundamentally misunderstood...

Satélite llamando a control: no responden. (This is btw the true salsa, the Ultimate Salsa if you will). (If only Ben Franq were here to hear!)

• "Lo mandaron pa' la luna porque en la tierra no hay fortuna..."

Equa hey!

[Dennis Mahar]

(Fine tuned, highly sensative, etc.)

Thanks for that Alex.
I'm finely tuned, highly sensitive etc.. is a statement listed in the Inauthentic Power Plays of Human Being Manual for living a Life as a Deadshit...

It comes under the section 'Announcements'.

It's like a Calling Card...


that Announces:

Fuck You, I'll fill up the space we share with shit and that's all you'll get.

Thank God that's not you.

[Bob Michael]

It is an interesting angle for a critique on Nietzsche. Since he was in many respects a crippled man. Yet, it is in that, or from that (position) from which he theorized.

If Nietzsche was "a crippled man" it was only because it was his fate to have to live in a fully enlightened state of mind, body, and spirit in a world of spiritually dead human beings. Along with having the knowledge that it was very likely that no one, at least in close proximity to him, understood either him or his works. And that perhaps there was no one alive anywhere who did. I think most genuinely enlightened beings sooner or later reach this point, whereupon many of them seem to find 'comfort' by falling back into various forms or areas of self-delusion. Whereas Nietzsche was too honest and couldn't successfully pull off such a trick. Hence his insanity(?).

[Alex Jacob]

I think you are romanticizing him.

[Bob Michael]

I think you are romanticizing him.

Not at all. I've walked many miles in his footsteps and have gone beyond him. But unless a man, like yourself, is born-again, he'll never understand these simple facts. Though he'll very likely be running off at the mouth about nothing - morning, noon, and night.

[Alex Jacob]

Well that's a fine how-do-you-do...

[Bob Michael]

It's alright Alex, I was often guilty of such behavior myself. Still am at times. And looking back a friend often pointed this out to me. Eventually I came to understand. Being still (quiet), looking at oneself, and growing up is not always an easy or a pleasant thing to do. But unless it's done one will never come to discover extraordinary things. Nor will he ever truly understand the outstanding men and women who went before him.

[Alex Jacob]

Hi Jufa, I think I understand pretty much what you mean. Personally, I concord with a great deal of it. I think you are writing about matters that have to do with a highest aspect of a man's psychic life (spiritual life) and it is by that very fact a deeply internal work and consideration. I can see, therefor, from that perspective, why you might disconnect from the world of 'dead images' or reflected images, and the strange relationship of man to all this historical, reflected content. I do have the feeling that it would all lead to a definite sort of disconnect from 'the world' and perhaps, again in that 'internal space', this is what we all do or 'must' do. I guess that a person ultimately lives their life in such an inner space. It seems to me that many peole here, on this forum, in one way or another, have found their way to that 'space' or place.

I do think 'things' are different in the actual world of men, and when one lives in that actual world of men, and if one has any care or concern for people, one automatically becomes more realistic, more aware of the 'conceptual systems' in which people live, more understanding. Also, I think the 'higher ideation' and the possibilities of and for man, which perhaps are expressed in Scripture of various sorts, doeas percolate down through many different levels or layers and just because of that (defect? filtration?) does not mean that any of the so-called dead concepts are not still necessary or useful. They seem to me inevitable.

Finally, though I have no idea if you would agree or concur, I do think you offer another, a new, a self-renewing means of understanding the Advent and also that which offers 'salvation' to a person down in the flesh-consciousness. I am particularly interested in that because I am interested in the self-renewing metaphor and the way, from time to time and in history, these 'metaphors' jump into action again in new ways. True, everything seems to fail and not to have tremendous effect, or if there is effect it is temporary, like a 'spiritual flower' that was created and then wilts, or is mercilessly cut down, but the desire to bring beauty into life was still expressed. In that sense the life we lead in this 'place' or plane always has a tragic element.

[jufa]

Hi Alex! In all actuality, I do not know what spirituality is. And though I have, from living in the world, and doing the necessities which it takes to do so, I find living according to inherent principles and patterns which tell every man, woman, and child their actions are right or wrong for them -let your conscience be your guide-to be the missing link each man has to find within themselves.

I cannot associate with the thought of taking ones self away from the very things one is seeking to overcome for how can one ever be on a hero's journey if one does not stand up to, and slay the dragons of shadows which do not exist where they fall, and do not exist where they do not fall? I am saying I live no different than any one else. My crusade is to save myself from my thoughts of dual purpose which, as Socrates or Plato stated, makes the life of man as a charioteer being drawn between to horses going in different direction simutaneously.

Living my life is the taking of my responsibility to live in the world but not of the world. This means I do what is necessary in the ordinary living of men, but with the purpose and intent of always allowing my light to be the body of my thoughts. I have a responsibility to eradicate that which I inherited from ancestral DNA, and the rudimental thinking of my contemporaneous peers who continue the life style of ancient thinking molded to fit today's world.

"Be not deceived, God is not mocked, whatsoever YE SOW, not God that shall ye reap." This principle tell that the pattern of thought seed one plants, by thoughts, action of thought, words, actions of words, physically, or actions of physicality is a man's just and fair apocalypse or fairy tale reward of life.

And the thing of importance concerning this, is that ones life includes ones family, friends, and all one claim to be the conditions and standards for which they live and accept as reality. All things in a man's consciousness, conscious, mind, body and soul reap the seeds one have instilled in the soil of their minds and consciousness.

Because of this lack of knowledge, when something good or bad happens in the domain of one conditioned world, God is acclaimed to be good on one hand, and bad on the other. God has nothing to do with either because

The thought, intent and purpose of the thought must be fulfilled in the thinker because the thinker is that one of Essence living in the eternal awareness of the moment of their thinking. - jufa:

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

[Bob Michael]

"In his analysis of capitalism and its effect on people (Erich) Fromm constructs a vicious circle from which only the psychoanalyst offers a way out: Capitalism mass produces neurotics and in turn neurotics originate and perpetuate the mass neurosis which is capitalism."

"A sick society produces sick people and the sick people reproduce the characteristics of that society. Fromm envisages a sane society, socialism, which will produce sane and healthy people. A problem arises however when the question of how such a society is to be established. In view of the alleged fact that people living in capitalist society are universally sick and therefore incapable either of breaking out of their sick society or building socialism, the only solution of the dilemma is the cure of individual neurotics who will then set up little socialist oases in the capitalist desert. The key to the future of man, individually and collectively, lies therefore in the therapy of mental illness, the business of the psychoanalyst. Thus the psychoanalyst becomes the main reliance in the transition to socialism. Individual conversion of moral character has always been the mark of utopian socialism. Fromm reforms the utopian theory into a utopian therapy. Moral regeneration becomes the cure for neurosis."

(Harry K. Wells - 'The Failure of Psychoanalysis: From Freud to Fromm' - 1963)

This may all look and sound good on paper, but I can't help wondering where on earth the psychoanalysts are that can successfully tackle such a task?