APOCALYPSE or FAIRY TALE?

[Bob Michael]

Agreement! Now, where in pure Spirit is there a question of why, what, when, who and where, as there is in the Spirit of the Son of Man of the earth that is you before me and me before you?

The whys, whats, whens, whos, and wheres are all necessary to investigate and transcend in order to attain to pure Spirit. That is if one has an innate capacity for such an adventure.

[cousinbasil]

Though the evolutionary deterioration and accompanying dehumanization of the species has gotten to the point where man enmasse has clearly become irreparably neurologically damaged (materially, physically, biologically) and virtually no one anywhere realizes that as a result they are little more than un(critically)thinking, unfeeling, lifeless and loveless human robots

.
What, specifically, constitutes "evolutionary deterioration" in your view? I am not asking you to list behavioral "symptoms." I am asking if you think the physical process of evolution has gone awry and if so, how.

Hence there is no way out for the species save for an all-out nuclear holocaust. Which will simply be a natural and necessary grand-cleansing of the huge multitude of human evolutionary maladapts from the planet.

It is interesting that you see "all-out nuclear holocaust" as having the discernment to "cleanse the planet" of only these human evolutionary maladapts, as if it were being wielded like a vast laser scalpel in the hands of a divine surgeon. You must be aware that whenever nuclear devices have been used in the past - and they were relatively small scale devices compared to what we have today - a vast number of civilians were killed.

Yet the possibility of imminent nuclear events exists, and rarely seems less imminent. If you think it would be "natural and necessary," then on some level you think it is desirable. I am only too glad that not everyone shares your views on this. I am surprised an intelligent person such as yourself would think that only people who hold these views would be spared during a nuclear holocaust, or really that anyone would be spared.

How is it that you are able to look into the hearts of everyone on the planet and judge their spiritual standing? How does one get this power?

I can only say I am glad that the people who actually have the trigger-fingers for nuclear weapons do not think as you do. But then, that's the problem, isn't it? We can't be sure of that. It is reaching the point where some of those people with access to atomic weapons wear turbans, and that is frightening.

Your specific view of the future gives you comfort, or else you wouldn't cling to it. My guess is you die peacefully of old age before Armageddon happens, and the first nail goes into your coffin before the first nail goes into your Ark.

[Alex Jacob]

Bob M. wrote: "Though the evolutionary deterioration and accompanying dehumanization of the species has gotten to the point where man enmasse has clearly become irreparably neurologically damaged (materially, physically, biologically) and virtually no one anywhere realizes that as a result they are little more than un(critically)thinking, unfeeling, lifeless and loveless human robots. Though 'joyful and cheerful' robots one might say. Hence there is no way out for the species save for an all-out nuclear holocaust. Which will simply be a natural and necessary grand-cleansing of the huge multitude of human evolutionary maladapts from the planet."

There is one notable flaw here, as it seems to me. If we accept the figure of Jesus---as either a divine being or a representative of divine being---and if we accept the idea of 'the holy spirit' as a real force, this calls into question the idea of 'irreparable neurological damage'.

One of the core beliefs of Evangelical Christians is the idea that we are 'born dead'. If you will permit me to express the idea through one of Bob Dylan's evangelic-period songs, Saved:

• I was blinded by the devil
  Born already ruined
  Stone-cold dead
  As I stepped out of the womb
  By His grace I have been touched
  By His word I have been healed
  By His hand I have been delivered
  By His spirit I Have been sealed.
  I've been saved
  By the blood of the lamb

There has to be a force within this creation that renews, revivifies. After all, how could there ever have arisen any aware intelligence from out of 'the mud'?

Bob writes: "Hence there is no way out for the species save for an all-out nuclear holocaust. Which will simply be a natural and necessary grand-cleansing of the huge multitude of human evolutionary maladapts from the planet."

I suggest that, as a Christian, you have lost faith in the healing power of the God who is at the core of the whole revelation.
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I was thinking about this spat now going on with Kelly. I was thinking of something that is relevant to my own work: the idea of 'character' in the novel. The individual, as we know the individual (and Kelly is certainly one of those, as are we all) is a creation of a long evolution of 'self-management' (the cultivation and management of self). The notion of a God who empowers the individual is very, very strong in the West. We think of the 'inner-drive' of an individual and we all have inner-drives of various sorts.

But with these pseudo-Buddhist notions of a non-inherant self, there can really be no 'valid' inner-drive, that is if the self is seen as non-existing. If one embodies such ideas, in a certain sense you 'state' (declaim) that you do not in fact exist in this world.

The Judeo-Christian revelation gives unique and valuable inherancy to the individual.

So that, in a Buddhist novel (if such a thing could exist), characters along with their inner drive would slowly disappear; become less substantial with ever page turned, until finally all that would be left, as with the Cheshire Cat, would be the merest trace, a smile or a wisp...

The funny thing to muse on is that, here, the notion of non-self is entertained...by some individuals with extremely defined and indeed 'existant' personality and character.
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CB writes: "Your specific view of the future gives you comfort, or else you wouldn't cling to it. My guess is you die peacefully of old age before Armageddon happens, and the first nail goes into your coffin before the first nail goes into your Ark."

Which is a clever way of saying 'My Kingdom is not of this world'.

[Pam Seeback]

The reality of the moment of depth realization that ideas are not the reality of oneself cannot be denied or 'taken back.' Once the ship has sailed, it has sailed. From that moment forward, the man who has been touched of this depth realization thinks differently. Whether he analyzes it from a position of rejection or acceptance, he cannot deny that which he has now come to know. Ergo, boards such as these.

Jesus, who I believe was one of the first, if not the first to complete this journey of full acceptance of the invisible reality of himself, spoke of The Comforter coming to those who have been touched of the wholeness or the totality or the Tao or the God or the infinity of themselves and are now living of the question of what this touch means to them. It is my belief that it is boards such as these that are an expression of The Comforter, even though, more often than not, the ideas expressed can be said to manifest anything but 'feelings of comfort.' It is my experience that it is the coming together of like minds that is the comfort, not the content of this shared awareness of being of like minds.

[cousinbasil]

Bob writes: "Hence there is no way out for the species save for an all-out nuclear holocaust. Which will simply be a natural and necessary grand-cleansing of the huge multitude of human evolutionary maladapts from the planet."

I suggest that, as a Christian, you have lost faith in the healing power of the God who is at the core of the whole revelation.

And supplanted it with a belief that he has the ability, if not the authority, to proclaim that no one is worthy healing. Aside from himself and a select few whom he presumably has been delegated to choose.

[Alex Jacob]

And going a little further, for all that Bob's ideas are respectable and interesting in places, he sits in fine company here on GF among those who do not 'worship life' but who (seem to) worship death (disolution, atomization...)

[Pam Seeback]

Agreement! Now, where in pure Spirit is there a question of why, what, when, who and where, as there is in the Spirit of the Son of Man of the earth that is you before me and me before you?

The whys, whats, whens, whos, and wheres are all necessary to investigate and transcend in order to attain to pure Spirit. That is if one has an innate capacity for such an adventure.

I agree wholeheartedly with your statement above. Which means that every investigation into what one believes is the nature of pure Spirit must be transcended, even one's most treasured philosophy of his 'save the earth' mentality. Is it not our earth thoughts that cover our pure Spirit and cause us to question its nature, even when we know that no definitive answer will ever be revealed?

Pure spirit is pure spirit. The spirit of the earth is the spirit of the earth. The man who tries to blend them lives in a divided world, which of my experience of my own adventure into the silence of myself, is what you present here of your belief that you have discovered a God of dualism, a God of fear of matter. Did Jesus not say "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon"?

What I see that has happened is that you brought us your treasure of the earth of the apocalypse and of the ark and of the fullness of manhood, and what has happened is what Jesus said would happen, that is, "moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break though and steal." Which means your spirit of inquiry of 'manhood' are not those of attaining an incorruptible spirit thoughtbody, which you profess, but of the spirit of the earth that 'goes where the wind blows.'

For what it is worth to you, I have discovered that to have a moral conscience of wisdom of the earth is a critical step on the path of eventually stepping into the inner conscience of wisdom of the spirit, wisdom that brings the knife that cuts away one's attachment to the earth, precept by precept, line by line, here a little, there a little. For those who have an innate capacity for such an adventure. :-)

[Pam Seeback]

And going a little further, for all that Bob's ideas are respectable and interesting in places, he sits in fine company here on GF among those who do not 'worship life' but who (seem to) worship death (disolution, atomization...)

Alex, tell me how life can die.

[cousinbasil]

And going a little further, for all that Bob's ideas are respectable and interesting in places, he sits in fine company here on GF among those who do not 'worship life' but who (seem to) worship death (disolution, atomization...)

Oh, I think Bob fits right in.

And BTW, it's the thinly- or undisguised elitism that mark Bob's views which I find repellent. I actually feel a good deal of empathy for the pain and suffering which he identifies in mankind. No one said the majority of people make good role models for one's spiritual yearnings. Reaching for the "fullness of manhood" (a term which appears to exclude the feminine and therefore also fits right in at GF) means something if done amidst less perfect, less diligently striving people. But if one's prerequisite is that all of them first be entirely removed from the planet, the noble fight loses some of its valience.

[Bob Michael]

c/b: "What, specifically, constitutes "evolutionary deterioration" in your view? I am not asking you to list behavioral "symptoms." I am asking if you think the physical process of evolution has gone awry and if so, how."

Due essentially to the lack of love, discipline, warm human touch, and intelligent sheltering in the formative years of life the bulk of the human species sufferers from irreversable neurological damage which could be said to be the destruction, rather than the fine and proper development, of our intuitive mechanism or our vital sixth-sense. One could also say that most of us have had our soul murdered as a result of being born into sick, loveless, insane, brutal, dehumanized, and decaying societies. As a result we can no longer discern what are or are not authentic human words, thoughts, actions, and behaviors in either ourselves or others. Leaving us all essentially cold, callous, unfeeling, and discompassionate robots, which can only lead to the eventual mass self-destruction of the overwhelmingly inhuman or machinelike species.

c/b: "It is interesting that you see "all-out nuclear holocaust" as having the discernment to "cleanse the planet" of only these human evolutionary maladapts, as if it were being wielded like a vast laser scalpel in the hands of a divine surgeon. You must be aware that whenever nuclear devices have been used in the past - and they were relatively small scale devices compared to what we have today - a vast number of civilians were killed."

Surely there will be collateral damage as nuclear devices don't discriminate. Many who do have the innate capacity for regeneration will perish along with the many maladapts.

c/b: "How is it that you are able to look into the hearts of everyone on the planet and judge their spiritual standing? How does one get this power?"

By having a finely-formed and highly-sensitive organism and then engaging, at all costs, in a relentless rebuilding and fine-tuning of that organism.

c/b: Your specific view of the future gives you comfort, or else you wouldn't cling to it. My guess is you die peacefully of old age before Armageddon happens, and the first nail goes into your coffin before the first nail goes into your Ark.

I no longer find comfort or discomfort in my view of mankind's future. And building the 'Ark' is not the problem, it's finding finely-formed and highly-sensitive organisms who also have the courage to die fully to the known, the safe, and the secure to occupy the 'Ark'. Those who are willing to take the necessary 'blind' leap of faith. Or to 'let-go absolutely'. And are then willing go on to fully overcome their false, societally conditioned and thereby inhuman 'self'.
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"Without the stimulus of love the organism cannot develop properly. The child that has not been adequately loved during the first half-dozen years of its life will be most seriously affected in that capacity which is of such great importance for human beings, namely, the capacity to relate oneself in a warm and engaging manner towards others. The child that has not been adequately loved is likely to grow up trained in the incapacity to love others. He is the 'cold fish' whose world is one-dimensional, arid, and virtually completely free of all emotional relationships or tenderness." (Ashley Montagu - 'The Cultured Man')

[Bob Michael]

And BTW, it's the thinly- or undisguised elitism that mark Bob's views which I find repellent.

What's wrong with an elite? Do you want everbody and everything pulled down to the common denominator? That's one of the big problems with so-called democracy.

[Bob Michael]

For what it is worth to you, I have discovered that to have a moral conscience of wisdom of the earth is a critical step on the path of eventually stepping into the inner conscience of wisdom of the spirit, wisdom that brings the knife that cuts away one's attachment to the earth, precept by precept, line by line, here a little, there a little. For those who have an innate capacity for such an adventure. :-)

This may all look and sound good on paper, but if we let our cowardice limit our actions, what real value are we to our fellow suffering human beings and the evolutionary process?
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"The sensory deprivation of pleasure results in the failure of certain neural pathways to develop and develop properly. Sensory stimulation acts like a nutrient for brain growth and development. The richer the networks, the greater the interconnectivity and neural integration of the brain.....A rich array of sensory stimuli, of all the senses, maximizes development of the brain. If we do not get the sensory stimulation we equate with love, bonding, and intimacy during the formative period of brain development, we're going to be impaired, if not crippled, in our ability to experience and express the 'language of love' later in life." (James Prescott)

[Bob Michael]

Alex: "There is one notable flaw here, as it seems to me. If we accept the figure of Jesus---as either a divine being or a representative of divine being---and if we accept the idea of 'the holy spirit' as a real force, this calls into question the idea of 'irreparable neurological damage'."

What about the unpardonable sin, blasphemy of the holy spirit? Which J.C. never really explained nor fully understood, though surely he was on to something that very few ever gave much thought to. As was also the case when he said many are called, but *few* are chosen. Then too we have his similar view regarding strait is the gate and narrow is the way (unto LIFE) and *few* there be that find it.

Alex: "I suggest that, as a Christian, you have lost faith in the healing power of the God who is at the core of the whole revelation."

Here again the above views would apply. Along with my keen, compassionate, and tragic awareness that many people are doomed to face and endure an inexcapably wretched and hopeless existence and destiny that neither heaven, nor earth, nor a dozen Gods would offer any responce to the cries of their hearts for either love or mercy. Which the general lot of humanity is too desensitized, self-centered, cold, and callous to ever begin to fathom.
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"A human nurtured instead of shamed, and loved instead of driven by fear, develops a different brain and therefore a different mind. He will not act against the well-being of another nor against his larger body, the living Earth." (Joseph Chilton Pearce)

"An unloved child has a different kind of physical brain than a loved child. The damage is not simply psychological. It is neurological and therefore, physical. Ultimately, it is the lack of love which does us in before our time," (Arthur) Janov writes. He believes that early trauma causes a reduction of functioning brain synapses (connections)."

[Pam Seeback]

For what it is worth to you, I have discovered that to have a moral conscience of wisdom of the earth is a critical step on the path of eventually stepping into the inner conscience of wisdom of the spirit, wisdom that brings the knife that cuts away one's attachment to the earth, precept by precept, line by line, here a little, there a little. For those who have an innate capacity for such an adventure. :-)

This may all look and sound good on paper, but if we let our cowardice limit our actions, what real value are we to our fellow suffering human beings and the evolutionary process?
_________________________________________________________________________________________

"The sensory deprivation of pleasure results in the failure of certain neural pathways to develop and develop properly. Sensory stimulation acts like a nutrient for brain growth and development. The richer the networks, the greater the interconnectivity and neural integration of the brain.....A rich array of sensory stimuli, of all the senses, maximizes development of the brain. If we do not get the sensory stimulation we equate with love, bonding, and intimacy during the formative period of brain development, we're going to be impaired, if not crippled, in our ability to experience and express the 'language of love' later in life." (James Prescott)

Bob, I noticed you plucked out the last paragraph of my response to you, but completely ignored the most essential thoughts I presented, which was my challenge of your belief that you had attained perfection of Spirit.

It is clear to me that your idea of a Superman of wisdom and of love, which I do not deny to be the driving force of the realm of soul, is the realm upon which you firmly stand. It is not, however, the realm of pure Spirit, for the reasons I stated in my previous post, which again, you chose not to address.

To those who live in the realm of the senses, the wisdom you present is viable. To those, however, who have tasted the realm of pure Spirit, wherein the senses cannot go, this wisdom is no longer viable. A new wisdom of renunciation and of purgation of sense attachment replaces the old wisdom of using the senses wisely so as to form humans of compassion, love and strong moral fiber. A wisdom of renunciation and of purgation purposed to form a thoughtbody of incorruptible Light.

[jufa]

To Bob Michael, Alex Jacob, and all others who fail to make this a complete discussion. What do you mean jufa? This is only a hibernated intellectual discussion which deals with the absurtity of man become a hybrid Christ who though his efforts can changed what has not change from the beginning of man. This conversation fits into the very question asked, but never answered, "Who changed the truth of God into a lie and worshiped the creature more than the Creator." So the challenge goes out to not only deal with the intellect of man - "What is man who breath is in his nostril, for wherein is he to be accounted of?" but the Spirit of "the law of the Spirit of life" and death, for "death gives to life so life can live. Life give to death so death so death can die.

Never is there a law in Life which is not universal. And in the Master's revelation that He was made after the power of an endless life, it is His telling that the law is universally applied to reveal that each individual person is also made after the power of and endless life. That it is a law which must be observed and accepted before it can manifest its power in the individual lives of men.

When men have obediently observed and accepted the law of an endless life, [who here can give evidence they have accomplished this? Speak on it if you can] they will realize that every shred of destruction to that life is obviously a lie. And that lie cannot succeed because all men are created of that One endless life. And in this truth all human universal fears, beliefs, and influences other than "the law of the Spirit of life" should hit man's consciousness with the revelation which say no: "there is no fear, belief, nor another body of influence which will ever negate I am the church of Life [God], I am the living temple of God who is my individual consciousness of the endless life of Spirit which is Christ, which appeared once as Melchizedek and another time as Jesus, but has always been the SELF I must cling to because it is the permanent indestructible church of God in me.

This indestructible church of God in me is the kingdom of God within each and every living body as the substance and essence of God's creation regardless of the name applied to it.. It is the only life in the known universe, for without this life, nothing would exist, and therefore, their could not be any beliefs of existence of that life, nor any life of opposition. Should any one man, or mass of men accept this truth, they will come to know the true meaning of "mortality must be swallowed up of life," not in life, but of life. When the concept of mortality has been swallowed up and dissolved of life, what other life is there but that which has absorbed and dissolved all that is not of Its creation? Whenever Life, and who can say what Life is? shall blindly be acknowledge and accepts as "Now faith is the substance," the reality they are that endless life will become as the brightness of their rising Sonship of "God in Christ [not God in man] reconciling the world unto himself," and all the fears they have about their life and the living and acceptance of those things they were aware of will be exposed in the brightness of the arisen Christ, and all the erroneous beliefs in another power other than the power of the Son will dissolve as a shadow when exposed to "the brightness of his glory." Why? How? because the fears and beliefs that temporal men have are not about their endless life, and there is no other, it is about a life that has no existence except, IN THE THOUGHT, IN THE SENSATION OF THE MIND.

The pure at heart are blessed for they have come to comprehend that the endless life of God, being the only life is their life, and they need never fear any power in the universe, regardless of its nature, because any power in the universe is powerless against that ONE life of God that can only be and is their life. This ONE life must be their life for there is no other, they come to understand, acknowledge, and accept, and because they are that endless life, they comprehend birth is an illusion as well as death; beginning is an illusion as well as end, and there is no point to try to read it further in a book, it must be taken into consciousness, and in Consciousness this Pure Awareness must be rested in.

Men must dwell in the awareness that they were truly not born, because this is the great secret behind the complete revelation of Jesus on this earth. Jesus' revelation of His having not been born made possible all that He demonstrated, because His demonstration was not demonstrated by one who was born ["before Abraham was, I AM], it was demonstrated by One who knew that He was the ONE life that had no birth and no death. And in that acknowledgement and demonstration, we are told, "if ye believe on Me," if you to know that you are the ONE life that is never born and never dying, "greater works shall ye do," because it is only the fear of the god of this world that shows outwardly as the conditions that plague the world of mankind.

Men must stand up to the god of this world as Jesus did by dissolving the temptations of personal influences by accepting and acknowledging this truth in consciousness, for it is then only they will find the "power of his word" dissolves the belief and acceptance of this false consciousness {"the god of this world cometh and hath nothing in me"} in which the two headed monster, or double sided coin will be found to be nonexistent in the kingdom of the Unconditioned Mind.

This is when men can walk free into the real freedom of liberated success from the Eygpt mentality of enslavement to conditions of interpretions, and realize "all interpretation belong to God." It is then men will find that "temple not made with hands." That temple of the true Spirit structure of body which was not formed in the womb. That true life which is independent of all forms in this world. That life which can look at a bomb and not feel it, or see it, or be touched by it. And as men, in consciousness, accept that life, that life is made into their tangible experience of the Nature of God, and will find that even their tangible experience is not subject to the physical powers of this world, so that their tangible forms cannot be encased in a tomb of beliefs which can only be justified by by I think, I believe, I have heard, I see it this way, that way, I will, I can, I, I, I, I, I, I of myself have the power to go in and out as I please.
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Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

[cousinbasil]

And BTW, it's the thinly- or undisguised elitism that mark Bob's views which I find repellent.

What's wrong with an elite? Do you want everbody and everything pulled down to the common denominator? That's one of the big problems with so-called democracy.

You misunderstand. I didn't say there was anything wrong with an "elite," since by the very nature of mankind, there are differing levels spiritual awareness, or advancement, if you will. This is as natural as the existence of differences in people's abilities in any area of endeavor.

When you speak of a democracy, I assume you are referring to what passes for one in the USA. It's quite true that in many instances, our progress (for want of a better term) is limited to a common denominator. Moreover, it is often the lowest one possible. In its basest form, this kind of change is linked to the simple notion that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. In this manner, mediocrity appears to propagate itself.

But when has mediocrity not been the norm? You don't seem to realize the implications of your vision for mankind. Aren't you in fact expecting everybody and everything to be "pulled down"? I am not saying a nuclear holocaust cannot happen or that it will not happen, for I do not know that. It's just that I don't think you know either, your vision notwithstanding.

I sense you are a deeply spiritual person, and it is not my desire to offend you. You write:

Here again the above views would apply. Along with my keen, compassionate, and tragic awareness that many people are doomed to face and endure an inexcapably wretched and hopeless existence and destiny that neither heaven, nor earth, nor a dozen Gods would offer any responce to the cries of their hearts for either love or mercy. Which the general lot of humanity is too desensitized, self-centered, cold, and callus to ever begin to fathom.

It seems that in this forum, people seem to accept the idea that it is possible to be spiritual without being religious, that is, without having a faith that there exists an Intelligence that is not born of us but rather we of It. I take it you are not among them and believe God exists and has a Will. You have just said God will not take care of his children. And you despair because the "general lot of humanity" does not share this "tragic awareness."

Shall we then spread the word?

[Alex Jacob]

Hi Jufa, I read your responses and, most of the time, I think I capture their meaning. In some ways, at some level, I agree with some parts. But those parts are, as I understand them, aspects of a developed mysticism. Pretty advanced stuff, though I suppose you wouldn't consider it speculative. I don't see how any part of it could function in this terrestrial realm. I guess it seems to me that these ideas function similarly to Kelly's: they can only lead to no action, or to a sort of turning away from 'the world' and inward, and upward, to higher dimensions. In Judaism there is a realm of speculation---Haggadah---that is intimately connected with the Divine Revelation, and allows much freedom of speculation, but which is contrasted with Halakah, which could be said to be 'on the ground rules for guiding one's existence in this terrestrial realm'. My weakness, I suppose one would have to say, is I see the Judaic 'position' as being perhaps the sanest, the most practicable, the most time-tested. I love speculation, and I have my own sense and understanding of 'ultimate questions', but while here, incarnated, I feel the only option available to me is to reside in the practicable. Still, I'd be open to hearing how you see your ideas as having a practicable side. I don't myself see it.
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Bob wrote: What about the unpardonable sin, blasphemy of the holy spirit? Which J.C. never really explained nor fully understood, though surely he was on to something that very few ever gave much thought to. As was also the case when he said many are called, but *few* are chosen. Then too we have his similar view regarding strait is the gate and narrow is the way (unto LIFE) and *few* there be that find it."

The supposed 'unpardonable sin', from within the system of belief itself---an orthodox Christianity---is to believe or state that what Jesus did (casting our 'demons' and such) was done 'on the authority' of Satan. It is essentially to see Jesus as a demon. I am sure there are many other nuanced interpretations but it derives from a specific part of the Gospel of Matthew (12:22-32). Obviously, a believer could not hold this belief as it would place him in unbridgable self-contradiction, so no believer is in danger. Also, from the look of it, this 'sin of blasphemy' applies only or especially for those who were there on the scene: those who witnessed the events and doubted and did not believe and who stated that it was 'work of the Devil'. You have to be really solidly placed within the belief-system to accept these things, as it would appear to me. (Christian Haggadah). From a strict Christian perspective, which you do not have, obviously, it would not be possible to say that Jesus, the Son of the Father, et cetera, did not understand what he was saying.

Oddly, it falls to your fine self to 'clarify' His meaning. I think this might be considered a wee bit presumptuous, at least from an orthodox perspective.

And your answer, to quote a top-notch line from Peter Mathiessen's 'At Play in the Fields of the Lord', is "...and blow those little fuckers to KINGDOM COME!"

Bob comments: "Here again the above views would apply. Along with my keen, compassionate, tragic awareness that many people are doomed to face and endure an inexcapably wretched and hopeless existence and destiny that neither heaven, nor earth, nor a dozen Gods would offer any responce to the cries of their hearts for either love or mercy. Which the general lot of humanity is too desensitized, self-centered, cold, and callus to ever begin to fathom."

You pose a problem, insofar as you are a non-Christian (one who negates the basic tenets of Christianity) who yet believes very strongly in the Christian eschatological outcome where there is much gnashing of teeth and 'I told you so!' prevails.

I'll try and get back to you when I have a solution to this dilemna...
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CB, How do you interpret the rather touchy subject of Christian (and Jewish) apocalyptic?

[Kelly Jones]

I don't think using the word "death" here is too strong. That same thought has crossed my mind many times. The death instinct here is palpable...and rarely is it used to eliminate the ego and replace it with our "infinite nature". It's just death for death's sake, destruction to escape one's own freedom, as Fromm suggests, a mere indulgence of the petty, animal nature of the male ego, further illustrating why cutting oneself off from the more beneficial qualities of our feminine nature is a gross mistake, an impediment to true wisdom. Intellectual, rational knowledge of the "infinite" is useless without compassionate action. That is where the residents of this forum epically fail, time and time again...and this behaviour is generously rewarded, boy snarls, lead dog pats him on the head, tosses him a little doggy treat, there there, that's m'boy, isn't he a breath of fresh air? The other dogs follow suit, because, hey, why not? It feels good to indulge the male ego and it's easier than behaving like a mature, rational adult, a never ending downward spiral of ego wanking...Welcome to Genius forum the path to Enlightenment and Ultimate Reality. heh.

Let's try to get the essence of this thread clear. Bob and Fromm expressed the view that the human species is doomed to extinction, because they lack love (and things like personal integrity, respect, knowledge, compassion, and the like). My view is, that's a reasonable explanation for a certain level of human, but it's not the final answer. It's a transition point, of a fairly low level.

Now, I realise that's not something most people in this thread appear capable of understanding. It's unfortunate. Instead of hearing the higher, loftier tones of the call to wisdom, it seems that many (but not all of you) are hearing me say nothing else but "destroy all ideals" - as if I am standing on the bottom level of hell, grinding out a bleak, depresed and tuneless wail. It's kind of comic that this image is superimposed on me. I'm voicing a pure and simple message from the top, but you lot can't hear it.

The masculinity you describe, Carmel, is a far cry from the determination, courage, single-pointedness of purpose and mental focus, and sheer will-power, that drives a wedge through samsara. It's a joke, seriously. Surely you're aware of this?

But let's be clear on this. The madness of the human species is indicative of spiritual bankruptcy. But where is the real solution? Loving your fellow beings sounds fine - but how can one love perfectly if that love is only directed to other beings rather than the entire Universe that is responsible for their existence?

That's why the Genius Forum is set up to promote wisdom of the Infinite. It's not about the human species per se. It's not about social justice per se. It's about putting everything in perspective, and getting a clue about what things really are. Only that enables one to treat others with compassion (i.e. free them from the delusions that cause suffering). Either go all the way, with your greatest passion, to perfect enlightenment, or you're not even in the vicinity of compassion. You cannot help people unless you know what the answer is.

I'm sorry, but that's the way it is.


.

[Kelly Jones]

Here's an illustration.

A child is preparing for a long ride on a horse. It's a temperamental creature, inclined to follow its own will. Her father has tied the horse to a post while the girl mounts. But the horse doesn't want to be ridden. Immediately she mounts, the horse "pig-roots" dramatically, flinging the child off. She hits the hard ground very hard, and is badly winded. Her father stands watching, doing nothing. At first she can't move and makes a strange, moaning sound involuntarily as her lungs struggle to be filled with air. Eventually she gets up. She is dazed. She wants only to find somewhere safe to sit down and cry.

But her father tells her to get back on the horse. She doesn't want to. She is shaking badly, and her will is lost. So he lets her go inside their home, wash her face, and take a short break. He orders her to come back thereafter, and get back on the horse.

While she is washing her hands and face and knees, still shaking and silent, her emotions are running wild. She thinks of her father as cruel and unfeeling, lacking any compassion or interest in her well-being. She wonders where her brothers and mother are, because she would like them on her side. But there is no one in the house. She pauses by the wash-basin, feeling the strange nausea of fear in her abdomen. She feels very shaky and cold.

But her riding jeans are still tough, her boots are polished, and she really did want to go for the long ride with her father.

So, she steps out of the house, a little firmer in her will, with her thoughts under better control, and feels ready to give it another shot. The horse looks a little penitent. Perhaps the father gave it a talking-to, in his domineering way. It certainly makes no movement as she approaches again. She looks at the horse with a degree of hostility, daring it to move. She warily remounts. She pats the horse on the shoulder, and talks to it a little. All well.

Why did the father force her to get back on the horse? Was this tough love - a compassion that looked further into the future, when he knew she would remember that she didn't run away when she was scared?


.

[Carmel]

Kelly:
Let's try to get the essence of this thread clear. Bob and Fromm expressed the view that the human species is doomed to extinction, because they lack love (and things like personal integrity, respect, knowledge, compassion, and the like). My view is, that's a reasonable explanation for a certain level of human, but it's not the final answer. It's a transition point, of a fairly low level.

Carmel:
I never said it was the final answer. What I'm suggesting is that some of the boys here haven't even reached the level of knowledge which Fromm discusses.i.e. understanding how they psychologically escape their own freedom through the use of destructiveness and other means. It would be a good starting point for them because, quite frankly merely understanding the logical implications of "Ultimate Reality" really doesn't seem to be causing any genuine internal transformation.

Kelly:
Now, I realise that's not something most people in this thread appear capable of understanding. It's unfortunate. Instead of hearing the higher, loftier tones of the call to wisdom, it seems that all you fellas can here is "destroy all ideals" - as if I am standing on the bottom level of hell, grinding out a bleak, depresed and tuneless wail. It's kind of comic that this image is superimposed on me. I'm voicing a pure and simple message from the top, but you lot can't hear it.

Carmel:
Perhaps it's best if you take that up with Alex. I didn't mention your name in my post.

Kelly:
The masculinity you describe, Carmel, is a far cry from the determination, courage, single-pointedness of purpose and mental focus, and sheer will-power, that drives a wedge through samsara. It's a joke, seriously.

Carmel:
Yes, I agree and that was rather my point. I was merely suggesting here that as true "spiritual friends", it isn't wise for the men here to condone or encourage this behaviour. Again, I didn't mention your name and, in fact, I recall that you recently confronted prince on his behaviour which was the wise course of action, in my opinion.

Kelly:
To be clear, this forum would only use psychological tools as medicine to get to a higher stage. You either go all the way, with your greatest passion, to perfect enlightenment, or you're not even in the vicinity of compassion. You cannot help people unless you know what the answer is.

I'm sorry, but that's the way it is.

Carmel:
That's the way it is according to Kelly. ;) ...though I do agree that psych. tools can help people reach a higher stage. That said, I'm not inclined to pursue a discussion on what the definition of wisdom or compassion is at this juncture. I think I'd still prefer to sit on the sidelines while you, Bob, Alex, or whomever engage in that discussion though I may interject at a later time...

[Carmel]

Kelly:
So, she steps out of the house, a little firmer in her will, with her thoughts under better control, and feels ready to give it another shot. The horse looks a little penitent. Perhaps the father gave it a talking-to, in his domineering way. It certainly makes no movement as she approaches again.

Carmel:
Yeah, or maybe the dad had a demeanor like the horse whisperer. His gentle, compassionate and loving nature caused the horse to go into a deeply relaxed state thereby allowing the girl to mount the horse and ride off peacefully without any further incident. :)

[Blair]

Religious hypocrites poison everything.

Religion and Hypocrisy are synonymous, in my batty little world. ;)

[Alex Jacob]

I thought I'd take a shot at a few of these. If I fail, I shall be sent to my room for the rest of my incarnation with no supper...And NO pat on the back and NO doggie biscuit!

1. Willingness to give up all forms of having, in order to fully be.

What we possess is the place where our greatest concerns are expressed. The more stuff, the more it must be defended. Without realizing the consequences, our 'getting' and 'holding' submerges us. We become secondary. Caught in that net, we cannot really 'be': experience the glory or the freedom, even in a body and with so much suffering, of simply 'being'. There is nothing quite like a hobo's freedom. It is a way of being in the moment that is unparalleled.

2. Security, sense of identity, and confidence based on faith in
what one is, on one's need for relatedness, interest, love,
solidarity with the world around one, instead of on one's desire
to have, to possess, to control the world, and thus become
the slave of one's possessions.

If one is not encumbered by objects, possessions, unreal self-identity, one is actually capable of relating with others spontaneously, naturally, genuinely. It is only from that 'base' (of confidence in being) that one can actually establsih authentic relatedness with another person. Again, I think of a hobo's possessionless world, the great freedom of having nothing to defend. Is it only from that position that one can be genuinely sincere?

3. Acceptance of the fact that nobody and nothing outside oneself
give meaning to life, but that this radical independence and no-
thingness can become the condition for the fullest activity
devoted to caring and sharing.

No matter what the narratives that have informed us, no matter what temporal powers are there cleverly and schemingly attempting to direct our notions of what has value and what doesn't (manipulation), it is our own selves who---ideally---should have an integral relationship with our own selves to determine...everything. And yet, we are the contested zone. Powers and potencies invest tremendous effort in winning us to their side, tricking us, etc. Radical independance and the ability to think and to 'be' freely seems vital. Unraveling the lies, we might then serve in sharing and caring. A certain amount of this definitely upsets the 'order'.

4. Being fully present where one is.

Implies being 'comfortable in one's skin'. A rather elusive luxury in life that is a battlefield. Only a non-anxious being has the luxury. The rest are shut out from it.

5. Joy that comes from giving and sharing, not from hoarding and
exploiting.

Related of course to 1 and 2. When one no longer attempts to 'hoard', one can begin to feel the pleasure and the joy of sharing. It is not too common that people (as I observe) really share...anything. There is tremendous sadness in that, I think. Its like missing the mark completely.

6. Love and respect for life in all its manifestations, in the
knowledge that not things, power, all that is dead, but life and
everything that pertains to its growth are sacred.

Hmmm. 'The Dead'. Leave the dead to bury the dead and all that. What is dead in life? In this sense, he points to the seeming fact that what we call 'life', or what is presented as 'life' and 'living', is really a kind of death. Ginsberg in the poem Sunflower Sutra writes: Poor dead sunflower? when did you forget that you were a flower? when did you look at your skin and decide that you were an impotent dirty old locomotive? the ghost of a locomotive? the specter and shade of a once powerful made American locomotive? / You were never no Locomotive, Sunflower, you were and sunflower!

8. Living without worshiping idols and without illusions, because
one has reached a state that does not require illusions.

Illusions as a necessary substitute for 'reality': the breadth of life, the possibility of life---if one is trapped by death-narratives. The whole notion of love, and love's substitutes, with emphasis of substitutes. In perhaps symbolic form, an idol is something that turns into a 'snare as in 'it shall be as a snare for you'. It deviates one from Life.

If one is 'in life' and life is 'real and valuable'---what is then illusory?---and what exactly is 'samsara'? (Clearly, Fromm as Jew is expressing the essence of L'chaim, and this comes forward in the Christian: 'Life in greater measure'.)

[jufa]

Hi Jufa, I read your responses and, most of the time, I think I capture their meaning. In some ways, at some level, I agree with some parts. But those parts are, as I understand them, aspects of a developed mysticism. Pretty advanced stuff, though I suppose you wouldn't consider it speculative. I don't see how any part of it could function in this terrestrial realm. I guess it seems to me that these ideas function similarly to Kelly's: they can only lead to no action, or to a sort of turning away from 'the world' and inward, and upward, to higher dimensions. In Judaism there is a realm of speculation---Haggadah---that is intimately connected with the Divine Revelation, and allows much freedom of speculation, but which is contrasted with Halakah, which could be said to be 'on the ground rules for guiding one's existence in this terrestrial realm'. My weakness, I suppose one would have to say, is I see the Judaic 'position' as being perhaps the sanest, the most practicable, the most time-tested. I love speculation, and I have my own sense and understanding of 'ultimate questions', but while here, incarnated, I feel the only option available to me is to reside in the practicable. Still, I'd be open to hearing how you see your ideas as having a practicable side. I don't myself see it.

_______________________________________________________

Hi Alex! Everything a person says is speculative, being man is a relative being when it comes to his giving evidence in exactness of his outer objective vision and inner subjective feelings. Therefore you cannot agree or disagree with what I say, you can only relate according to where you have been in the school of man's knowledge, and where you are in the wisdom of That which is the source of man being capable of utilizing the gift of living in a parenthesis which is of no matter in the final analysis of Life

I do not know what mysticism is, as I do not know what a judao-christian is, muslim, moslem, buddhist, atheist, for all are relative to individual personal beliefs which are not original to those who claim them in worship or non-worship, or human intellectual learning of.

Why is this jufa? Because all that any man puts forth to another and himself is an idea which has been lodged in his intellect by those who came before him, and who, when they who are being followed have not transcenced the mind to move beyond the intellectual human thought interpretations continue living in beliefs that have been alive since the time of Adam, and as the first destructive thoughts of Cain came forth, so they remain alive today. You bear witness to this when you say:

{ I don't see how any part of it could function in this terrestrial realm.}

How can you see that which has never been in your vision of comprehension?

When there is no metamorphism from the old man of hyprid human thought, to the new man of metaphoric comprehension, that which does not change, does not change. Such men continue on the path of dual beliefs of good and evil, and this veerses that because they have not grasped all men of the intellect

serve and worship the exact same thing intellectually.......... AND THAT IS AN IDEA. There are no SUB TERRAINS to IDEA, just as there are no heavenly heights, THERE IS ONLY THE IDEA. Where we take that IDEA, in our bubble does not negate the truth that it is the IDEA which encircles the bubble of our living. And when we break through the bubble of our ignorance, we'll realize our limits were the ceiling of the bubble of ignorance we were brainedwashed to believe - jufa.

So it doesn't really matter what you, I, or anyone believes, feel, think, interpret or spiritualize or say in expounding upon. for individuality is the name of the game, and the game is only played by individual experience which are not even momentarily comprehensible in totality because

"the moving finger write, having writ, moves on."

This means all human knowledge is dead when it comes to the moment of Now, and so, while in the intellect, we are walking dead men.

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

[Blair]

Prince is a unique individual, who appears occasionally able to tap into the masculine on his better days, but who can't help his karma from breaking in frequently. Attacking him for being mentally ill is reprehensible, anyway. This forum attracts its fair share of desperate minds, but regarding that as a consequence of the ideas expressed is truly shallow and irrational. .

Hey Kelly, go fuck yourself you ignorant, self-righteous dipshit