For Carmel

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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David Quinn
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For Carmel

Post by David Quinn »

I've recently been reading through Life and Death Magazine, the first time in years. I must say it's held up very well. It's still very funny!

This is one of my favourate parts:
Exploring Feminism - Part III

by William Greatbatch

In this the third part of our series which examines the role of feminism in the destruction of Truth, our three intrepid heroines explore the issues of equality and the double standard. In what way, they fearlessly ask, do men perpetuate the double standard? Should men be allowed to open doors for women in this day and age? Isn't it time we ditched the idea of one standard for men and another for women? In fact, why should we limit ourselves to just two standards? Doesn't this reflect poorly on our powers of imagination? If you want to know the answers to all these questions and more, then read on!
  • (Editor's note: "Exploring Feminism" is a series of fictional conversations between three women who discuss the role of feminism in relation to the destruction of Truth. It is based on the premise that women are concerned about the wider implications of their feminist movement. The goals of feminism are examined with a view to maximizing humanity's supreme ignorance of reality.

    The author fully appreciates that the women portrayed in this work do not bare any resemblance at all to the women who live in the real world. He realizes that real women have no interest at all in the subject of Truth, neither in seeking it nor in destroying it. This is probably due to the fact they have too many other things to worry about, not least of which is the dreadful oppression they suffer under men. It is only to be expected.

    I can assure women personally that the author has no intention of persuading them to reflect on the wider issues. To repeat, his sole aim in this work is to give voice to the implications of feminism in the destruction of consciousness. If in the process of doing it he causes pain to women, then he humbly offers his sincerest apologies. Let me just say that I know the author very well and can vouch for his sincerity in this matter. He is truly the gentlest of men and harbours no desire to hurt women in any way.
    )
Katherine: Now, Julie and Mary, the purpose of these discussions is to examine the ways in which feminism contributes to the destruction of Truth. Last month we examined the concept of oppression by patriarchy, so let us this month look at another goal of feminism, that of equality. How do you think the concept of equality destroys Truth?

Mary: I think we should establish exactly what we mean by equality. As you know, equality can mean all sorts of things.

Katherine: Well, does equality mean that women should be the same as men? That is, should women adopt the same values as men? Should they develop the same mentality and strive to possess the same abilities as men?

Mary: No way.

Julie: Definitely not.

Katherine: Why not? Surely, if the word "equality" is going to mean anything at all, it should mean "being of equal value" or "possessing identical significance" or something like that. And strictly speaking, only two identical objects can have identical value.

Julie: Not necessarily. I can think of many different things which are of equal value to me. For example, there is my husband, the kids, our beautiful home, Fluffy - all of them are very dear to my heart, and yet no one can honestly say that these things are identical.

Katherine: Good. You're judging things emotionally and thereby eliminating the notion of a single, objective standard. This is excellent. So when women speak of "equality", they do not actually mean becoming the equal of man in terms of ability or living up to the same ethical principles, but rather they mean something completely different.

Mary: Yes, we want men to recognize the fact that we are all intrinsically valuable, regardless of what we choose to say or do, and that it is wrong and narrow-minded of them to expect us to conform to their masculine ideals. This is what I mean at least when I speak of equality.

Katherine: Hmm, to my mind, what you say is obviously correct and beyond argument. But putting on the Devil's hat for a moment, what is so wrong about the idea of men and women sharing the same values? Surely it wouldn't be all that bad?

Mary: It would be awful. I mean, if we adopt the same values as men, then how could we possibly experience the pleasures of being feminine? How could we hang prettily off a man's arm, for example, or revel in the silk and flow of a lovely, new dress? How could we lose ourselves in the joy of the moment and gossip happily to our friends about the latest brand of lipstick? How could we concentrate on appearing reflective and deep and poetic as if staring into the outer reaches of the infinite, in the way men find so attractive? Adopt the same concerns as men? No thank you! I mean, as every woman knows, a man's life is filled with suffering. You only have to look at him to see that he carries the whole world on his shoulders. Who'd want to be like that? This is precisely why we think men are fools in the first place! No, I prefer to run and jump and play with my children. The last thing I could possibly want is to be like a man.

Julie: Yes, but we do want the same privileges as men.

Mary: Oh, absolutely.

Julie: Although we don't want to actually adopt the same values as men and experience the same masculine suffering which comes with assuming responsibility for oneself, we nevertheless want to be regarded as their equal.

Katherine: Good. You see, here we have a flat contradiction, and I believe that encouraging people to accept flat contradictions is the most effective way of destroying consciousness. You're saying that even though women do not want to perform the same activities as men, they nevertheless want to be treated the same as men and be given the same respect as men?

Mary: Precisely.

Julie: Hmm, I don't know. I think that women do want to perform the same activities as men, but only up to a point. In other words, we want to emulate men to the degree that it gives us pleasure; but should it turn the least bit nasty, then we, as free and liberated beings of the universe, demand the right to be able to dive quickly back into the safety of our femininity.

Mary: Yes, we want men to be the ones who stand up to the might of nature and risk life and limb in order to build the secure havens necessary for civilized existence. I mean, what else are they good for? Surely, men only exist for the sake of creating the structures in which women can safely nestle down and enjoy life to the full.

Julie: Yes, the darlings are truly our slaves, but they mistakenly believe they're our masters!

Mary: That's what makes them so cute!

Katherine: This is terrific stuff, because it all smacks of a double standard. You want women to be different to men, yet at the same time you want women to be given the same respect as men!

Mary: Absolutely. Equal but different, that's our philosophy.

Katherine: And an excellent philosophy it is, too!

Julie: This is why we propagate the idea that men and women have their own truths. Each sex has its own unique body, you see, with its own particular set of genitals, and therefore each sex must have its own truths, its own morality, its own set of values, and its own ultimate purpose in life.

Katherine: And men swallow this rubbish?

Julie: Well, yes. Especially when we say it prettily.

Katherine: Let me get this straight. You're saying that you want each sex to be judged differently, in accordance with different criteria, and this is because each sex has different genitalia?

Mary: We also have wombs. Men can never experience the miracle of childbirth and therefore can never be expected to adopt the same values as us.

Katherine: I'm interested in the origin of this double standard. As we all know, men are usually the ones accused of creating the double standard. But now you're saying that women want it as well?

Mary: Of course. In fact, men only perpetuate the double standard because we want them to. It is in our interests, you see, not men's, to have the duplicity maintained.

Katherine: How so?

Mary: Well, I would have thought it was obvious. The double standard gives women all the freedom and happiness they could possibly desire, while burdening men with all the dreaded accountability. At bottom, we want men to be responsible for everything we do, because then we can frolic through life like a child.

Julie: As well as giving us plenty of injustices to complain about!

Mary: That's right. And to have both sexes judged according to a single standard would destroy this utterly. So you can see why we constantly accuse men of oppressing us with a double standard: it so beautifully preserves the double standard which we find so liberating.

Katherine: It is often said there are only two types of women: virgins and victims. Whoever made that one up was a genius.

Julie: Yes, it is only when women are oppressed that they feel truly free.

Mary: And this is why I think women like to preach that everyone is intrinsically valuable and of equal worth. It implies that consciousness and unconsciousness are of equal value and so gives permission to women to act as unconsciously as they please.

Katherine: This is good stuff! In other words, you're saying that there is no good and bad, no right or wrong, no superior and inferior, etc.

Mary: That's right. Everything everybody does is valuable.

Katherine: So, in effect, what you're saying is that there aren't two standards after all. There are in fact billions of standards, one for each and every person on the planet.

Mary: Yes. Or more accurately, what we really want is to do away with standards altogether.

Julie: Except when we want to judge men, of course!

Mary: Of course.

Katherine: But doesn't advocating billions of standards undermine the beloved double standard of women's?

Mary: No, because you're forgetting that everything we women say and do is in accordance with the double standard.

Julie: Or not, as the case may be!

Mary: Yes, or not. The double standard admits of no consistency whatsoever - which is precisely why we adore it so much.

Katherine: Explain yourself, please. I confess I'm getting a bit confused at the moment.

Mary: Well, while it is perfectly true that everything everybody does is valuable, most of what men do is sexist and therefore very, very wrong.

Katherine: Oh, I see. So really, women should qualify their preaching by saying, "everything everyone does is valuable, except most of what men do."

Mary: No, no, no. Listen closely. We say to men, "Everything everybody does is valuable. There is no right or wrong. Good and bad are relative, blah, blah, blah." Okay? Then we turn around and accuse them of all sorts of evil behaviour. Okay? So while men are pummelled into submission trying to fathom that one out, we can get on with our lives in peace.

Julie: And while they're busy cowering and sniveling and gushing about our awesome powers, they won't get it into their heads to try and imprison us in this one standard of theirs.

Mary: Which they inevitably devise.

Julie: Exactly.

Katherine: Now, I'm with you. Your goal is to completely destroy all reason and so break man's spirit completely. And in so doing, you turn him into an automaton which hovers at your beck and call.

Mary: Absolutely. What other use could a man possibly have?

Katherine: Ah, all this is music to my ears. With feminism around, how can truth and integrity have a hope? Not only does feminism encourage people to accept and value contradictions and inconsistencies in their lives, but it persuades the world that the whole notion of standards is a joke. Or to express it more accurately, feminism is all about wrestling the power of judgment from men and giving it to women. The masculine desire to relate everything to a single principle is slowly being obliterated and in its place an ever shifting landscape of feminine whim is taking shape. One minute, there may be one standard; the next moment, there may be two; the next, five billion - who cares? Whatever suits the whim of a woman is all that matters.

Mary: This goes to the root of all feminism, actually. What women really complain about is not that they're being oppressed by men - for let's face it, we enjoy being dominated by men - but the masculine insistence that everything should be related to a single standard which is constant over time. I mean, honestly, what a bore!

Katherine: Indeed! We'll finish up now. But before we do, let me just say that feminism is among the greatest inventions ever to come out of the West. It rivals Christianity and academia with its power to obliterate consciousness; together, the three of them form the great super-highway to thought oblivion. But let us also not forget the role women themselves have played throughout the whole of history in safeguarding the human mind from the horrors of Truth. Indeed, without women the world would have been filled with Buddhas long ago. So let us all thank God or evolution, whichever you believe, for the foresight He/it had in creating women. Hurray!

Julie: Hurray!

Mary: Hurray!

Julie: You know, it's funny. All men have to do is simply ignore our feminine beauty for one moment and concentrate their attention upon our actions - if they did this, they would see through us immediately. But the fools are so befuddled by our feminine charms that they either never wake up to our pretensions or else they just don't care about their lives at all.

-

Next month, our fearsome threesome turn their attention upon the evils of stereotyping. They will examine how the stereotype is absolutely essential for a woman's existence and how accusing men of perpetuating stereotypes is yet another cunning ruse to foster feminine happiness.
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Carmel

Re: For Carmel

Post by Carmel »

and alas...

David takes the low road, thereby exposing not just his ass crack, but his entirely ass. ("Ass" is American for "arse", lest there be any confusion).

I suppose I could follow suit and post an old episode of "Beavis and Butthead", a show which satirically depicts the lesser qualities in boys, but nah... :)

and hey David, is that a "no" on the borrowing of the phrase "gravitational attractor"?
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Blair
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Re: For Carmel

Post by Blair »

Carmel wrote:("Ass" is American for "arse", lest there be any confusion)
Actually Ass, was first English for a type of domesticated horse.
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David Quinn
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Re: For Carmel

Post by David Quinn »

Carmel wrote:and alas...

David takes the low road, thereby exposing not just his ass crack, but his entirely ass. ("Ass" is American for "arse", lest there be any confusion).

I suppose I could follow suit and post an old episode of "Beavis and Butthead", a show which satirically depicts the lesser qualities in boys, but nah... :)

If you could post something that possessed similar levels of intelligence, dialetical inversion and irony as the above, then be my guest. I'd love to see it.

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Carmel

Re: For Carmel

Post by Carmel »

Due to your ego induced haze, I see you missed the point. :(

but hey, we could settle this with a quote off...a little Weininger vs. Solanas, perhaps?

My money is on Solanas...

Oh, and do know of a synonym for "gravitational attractor"?
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Kelly Jones
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Re: For Carmel

Post by Kelly Jones »

I'm not surprised that Carmel is so offended. Exposing the feminine - actually thinking about the psychologies of the sexes, the real motives, the stuff we all try to suppress - can be quite frightening stuff. No one talks about the actual dynamics between the sexes. It's socially taboo because it breaks down the very foundation of social harmony - the manipulative structures of emotional bonding that stops people killing each other.

Examining woman is opening Pandora's Box: demons of all kinds fly out. Most people know this, and know they are not strong enough to cope with the results. So they leave it shut, and warn everyone else off.

That is why it is such a surprise to read SEAT articles. This one has to be one of the best, by giving women the voices and understanding to articulate why they behave as they do. Katherine is a superb character, a total impossibility. It's a brilliant piece because there are so many layers: the dialectic voice (one can imagine Kevin was behind much of Katherine's part), the sarcastic double meaning, the naive - for starters. So humorous, biting and witty. It's makes the terrifying more approachable, because finally one can see the truth and find it comical.


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Carmel

Re: For Carmel

Post by Carmel »

All you two are proving here, is how large your egos are and how obsessed you are with "WOMAN". You don't really believe any of this is helping your boost your bullshit facade o' sage, do you?

go ahead, keep dancin' kids...
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Kelly Jones
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Re: For Carmel

Post by Kelly Jones »

You are obviously upset by criticism of feminine psychology. You have been swearing in almost every post, and hiding your fear behind bravado, scorn, and nonchalance.

This shows you are attached to woman, and afraid of exploring that attachment. So, you know that at least some part of what we are saying is true, because it is touching your conscience.


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Carmel

Re: For Carmel

Post by Carmel »

more lies Kelly? seems par for the course. I used the word "bullshit" once, just once, not "in every post"...you're unravelling Ms. Jones...
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Kelly Jones
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Re: For Carmel

Post by Kelly Jones »

Well, I think you're suppressing consciousness of your anger. To me it looks like you're swearing in almost every post.

If I said your pants are falling down, and you are showing your bare bottom to everyone, that would seem quite nasty. It helps lift the tone of the forum, doesn't it.


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Carmel

Re: For Carmel

Post by Carmel »

[quote="Kelly Jones"]Well, I think you're suppressing consciousness of your anger. To me it looks like you're swearing in almost every post.

Carmel:
Then you should have no problem proving this claim, otherwise you've just made a liar of yourself, quite unsagely, indeed.

Kelly:
If I said your pants are falling down, and you are showing your bare bottom to everyone, that would seem quite nasty. It helps lift the tone of the forum, doesn't it.

Carmel:
Prove your claim. I know you can't, hence it is most definitely your ass, or arse, if you prefer, that is showing...

waiting on that non existent evidence, Kelly...
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David Quinn
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Re: For Carmel

Post by David Quinn »

I think Carmel has decided to adopt the tongue-poking technique:
LETTERS TO THE EDITOR

Quick and to the point!

I have a suggestion which might interest your readers on how to deal with the philosophic type. I have found that simply poking the tongue at them works absolute wonders. Yes, that simple! Whenever these creeps try to engage you in rational discussion, just poke your tongue at them and watch them flee! It might sound a little childish but I guarantee you it is remarkably effective.

Good luck with your Society. Keep up the good work!

Mandy Walters, Launceston.
:)
Carmel

Re: For Carmel

Post by Carmel »

Thanks for the pithy post...Are you trying to be ironic?

Nevertheless, tongue-in-cheek is preferable to the bold faced lying that Kelly has resorted to...it's quite unseemly. :-|
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David Quinn
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Re: For Carmel

Post by David Quinn »

Carmel wrote:Due to your ego induced haze, I see you missed the point. :(

but hey, we could settle this with a quote off...a little Weininger vs. Solanas, perhaps?

My money is on Solanas...
From my point of view, you are missing the point by insisting on turning this into a battle of the sexes, or a rage against misogyny. It is the most boring viewpoint imaginable.

The above "feminist" dialogue, for example, contains all sorts of interesting philosophic twists and societal observations. And yet all you seem to see is a series of cro-magnon grunts.

Solanas was interesting. I find her amusing and she definitely had a bit of spark, although she was primarily driven by anger. But she certainly wasn't a patch on Weininger when it came to intelligence, dialectical inversion and irony. But I suppose he was just another cro-magnon man .....

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Blair
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Re: For Carmel

Post by Blair »

This thread is gold.
Carmel

Re: For Carmel

Post by Carmel »

It's you who is making it into a "battle" by constantly harping on woman's faults and never on men's, hence the complaints of "one-sidedness". As I've side on numerous occasions, I think it's warped, and unbecoming of a "sage"...

But go ahead, carry on if you'd like, I won't bother you about it again...
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David Quinn
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Re: For Carmel

Post by David Quinn »

And yet it is men who have far more reason to be afraid of the "one-sided" woman stuff than women do .....

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Carmel

Re: For Carmel

Post by Carmel »

If you want to make an enemy out of woman, have at it. I genuinely don't see the wisdom in making an enemy out of half the population. I've met bitter women who have done the very same thing with men, much to their own detriment. I think you're only harming yourself by doing so...

but if this is the way you see it, then, realistically, I think it would be pointless, on both our accounts, to discuss this any further.
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Re: For Carmel

Post by Kelly Jones »

Women aren't an enemy, Carmel. It's not actual women that is a problem, but their unconscious and seemingly effortless drive to be exciting, ethereal, warm, emotional creatures. Or, more accurately, it's not that drive that is a problem, but how it completely prevents the mindset of enlightenment from arising. Women can't be blamed for turning on their flashing sparkling charm, much like a Las Vegas show billboard can't be blamed for flashing bright lights and distracting one from following a line of subtle intellectual thought. It's the consumer who demands such distractions - but in this philosophical domain, we can't really blame the "consumer" (men). Nature has designed it all.

The real enemy is unconsciousness and irrationality. Women are a good specimen. But domesticated pets can also be revealing. These specimens aren't to blame. They're not "enemies". The enemy is the drive to unconsciousness.


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David Quinn
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Re: For Carmel

Post by David Quinn »

Carmel wrote:If you want to make an enemy out of woman, have at it. I genuinely don't see the wisdom in making an enemy out of half the population.
You still don't understand. I am an enemy of the entire human race.

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Blair
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Re: For Carmel

Post by Blair »

Carmel wrote:If you want to make an enemy out of woman, have at it.
You do realize, (well actually you don't) that your arguing affirms the truth with every breath?

Just like Laird arguing 'against' A=A.

The human is a hysterically amusing creature really, by virtue of evolution and relativity, it is rendered incapable of comprehending absolute truths.

See the humour!
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Re: For Carmel

Post by Kelly Jones »

Carmel wrote:Well, I think you're suppressing consciousness of your anger. To me it looks like you're swearing in almost every post.

Carmel: Then you should have no problem proving this claim, otherwise you've just made a liar of yourself, quite unsagely, indeed.
Well, you have to open your eyes to yourself. No one can prove you're angry and how this demonstrates you're defending something you cherish, if you enjoy your anger and you don't want to let go of the thing you're protecting from demolition.


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Carmel

Re: For Carmel

Post by Carmel »

David:
You still don't understand. I am an enemy of the entire human race.

Carmel:
So you are...that rather explains why you keep Kelly around for a pet. I never really fully understood that until just now.

Carry on then...:)
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Kelly Jones
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Re: For Carmel

Post by Kelly Jones »

I note that you haven't presented any actual arguments. Getting boring, Carmel.


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Re: For Carmel

Post by Nick »

Carmel wrote:It's you who is making it into a "battle" by constantly harping on woman's faults and never on men's
Strange you see it that way, because I would think that men, not women, would see it as the author spitting in their faces. It directly calls into question man's masculinity itself.
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