Defining and describing non-duality

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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guest_of_logic
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Re: Defining and describing non-duality

Post by guest_of_logic »

Anders Schlander wrote:You realize If that was true clearly David seems insane then
Oh, no, it's perfectly sane. See, it's a tactic: rather than admit that reasonable people can reasonably disagree that what he claims to be Ultimate (or Absolute) Truth indeed qualifies as such, which I'm sure you can understand would be very damaging to that claim, his tactic is to simply declare that those people don't understand. In other words: "You don't disagree [which would have the implication that his claims are questionable], you misunderstand [which avoids that implication]!"

A sane tactic, but not exactly an enlightened, nor an honest, one. But those are the sort of tactics that guys like David resort to in order to maintain their prestige under criticism in the cult-like environments that they foster.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Defining and describing non-duality

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Laird,
Oh, no, it's perfectly sane. See, it's a tactic: rather than admit that reasonable people can reasonably disagree that what he claims to be Ultimate (or Absolute) Truth indeed qualifies as such, which I'm sure you can understand would be very damaging to that claim, his tactic is to simply declare that those people don't understand. In other words: "You don't disagree [which would have the implication that his claims are questionable], you misunderstand [which avoids that implication]!"

A sane tactic, but not exactly an enlightened, nor an honest, one. But those are the sort of tactics that guys like David resort to in order to maintain their prestige under criticism in the cult-like environments that they foster.
What's here that's always here that's not the words?
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guest_of_logic
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Re: Defining and describing non-duality

Post by guest_of_logic »

Dennis Mahar wrote:What's here that's always here that's not the words?
I'm not sure what you're getting at - you'll have to be more specific. Possible answers are thought, perspective and opinion.
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Dan Rowden
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Re: Defining and describing non-duality

Post by Dan Rowden »

Or Reality.
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guest_of_logic
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Re: Defining and describing non-duality

Post by guest_of_logic »

Words are Reality too. Everything is.
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Anders Schlander
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Re: Defining and describing non-duality

Post by Anders Schlander »

guest_of_logic wrote:
Anders Schlander wrote:You realize If that was true clearly David seems insane then
Oh, no, it's perfectly sane. See, it's a tactic: rather than admit that reasonable people can reasonably disagree that what he claims to be Ultimate (or Absolute) Truth indeed qualifies as such, which I'm sure you can understand would be very damaging to that claim, his tactic is to simply declare that those people don't understand. In other words: "You don't disagree [which would have the implication that his claims are questionable], you misunderstand [which avoids that implication]!"

A sane tactic, but not exactly an enlightened, nor an honest, one. But those are the sort of tactics that guys like David resort to in order to maintain their prestige under criticism in the cult-like environments that they foster.

What you're saying relies on the fact that you can supposedly do (1)

1: That you can reasonably disagree that 'Ultimate(or Absolute) Truth indeed qualifies as such.


That is basically saying: reason says it is false, and it is reasonable to disagree with it.


Are you disagreeing because you reasonably know that it's false? Either you know or you don't know. Do you know that is it reasonable to to say that Truth/Reality is not Ultimate? Do you not know if Truth/Reality is Ultimate or not? or do you know that it is? Simply wondering if it is or not does nothing to prove or disprove David's claim, so if somebody 'reasonably' disagrees, there should be a reason to dismiss the notion.
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jupiviv
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Re: Defining and describing non-duality

Post by jupiviv »

In reality, both dualism and non-dualism(as philosophical positions) are delusions. Dualism considers a part as more real than the whole; non-dualism considers the whole as more real than the parts. Both become delusions when people try to apply them where they do not belong.

Reality is not a whole made of parts, and neither is it a special particular, and neither is it not those things. However, we can speak of it as being either a whole, or a part, or as being neither a whole nor a part - provided we know what we are doing, i.e, speaking about a whole, or a part, or neither a whole nor a part.
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skipair
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Re: Defining and describing non-duality

Post by skipair »

guest_of_logic wrote:A sane tactic, but not exactly an enlightened, nor an honest, one. But those are the sort of tactics that guys like David resort to in order to maintain their prestige under criticism in the cult-like environments that they foster.
It would look like that if you choose to view this only through the lens of power, as you seem to be doing.

Another option could be that he doesn't want to objectify something that is not objective, particularly when you are constantly asking for a clear, objective answer.

This is not about finding the right words and making a system of thought. Your "Laird Totality" spiel shows that anyone can say words that describe understanding and awareness. That's totally true.

I run into so many people who are unwilling to expose themselves to themselves or to others. If they did the facade might fall away. And so they are comfortable saying, "Oh, but there is SO MUCH that we don't know!" And how strange it is that THEY are the ones coming up with answers! But they won't tell you specifically what those are.

It's like in selling. Even when the customer wants the product, he will also have excuses and objections to it. And he KNOWS that if the salesman figures out what those objections are and shows him things that reveal that there is no good reason to have them in the first place, that he will be too weak to resist the product!

The product here is consciousness and awareness. It is the best product you could possibly buy. Some people have made up their minds, though. They've decided that, "This is my reality and I will not allow ANYTHING to change it!"

Consciousness is the taking away of need. People think they need their toys and will fight you if you try to take them away. They have forgotten that they don't really need anything at all.
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Kunga
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Re: Defining and describing non-duality

Post by Kunga »

Dan Rowden wrote:Which is what? What do you mean by the words "ultimate truth"?

Ultimate Truth is what i've been wanting to know since i was a teenager ...maybe younger....i feel like i'm closer to comprehending it...but still feel a little fuzzy.....to me the Ultimate Truth is what this Universe/Reality is..what am i ? why am i ? what is this life ? what is it all about ????

Knowing the Ultimate Truth you realize EVERYTHING...you KNOW EVERYTHING.

I have read that it is MIND. I can comprehend that it is MIND being that EVERYTHING we experience is because of our brain. I have also read that western thought relates the MIND with the BRAIN/CONSCIOUSNESS ...whereas EASTERN philosophy relates MIND to EVERYTHING....all that we see, hear, taste, smell,experience is MIND. There supossedly is ONE MIND...which is THE ULTIMATE TRUTH....WE are that ONE MIND. I can comprehend that and to me it sounds LOGICAL. But that's it. I still have a long ways to go before i can TOTALLY comprehend this

i also understand this as : A=A
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Dan Rowden
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Re: Defining and describing non-duality

Post by Dan Rowden »

guest_of_logic wrote:Words are Reality too. Everything is.
Words are not Reality. Words are words, oddly enough. If words were Reality, then Reality would be words, and that's kinda silly.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Defining and describing non-duality

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Consider the possibility that who you are, who human beings are, who ALL human beings are, is the Space IN which life happens.
The ever changing life of humans, BEING, is an arising-occurring. Very like the movie on the blank screen.
What we don't notice, for the most part, is the screen, the white space in which the movie called life appears, filled with sound and fury etc.
In this analogy the screen represents your being, your humanness. Being, just that, clear and vacant, space, like the screen is just the white empty screen. No screen, no movie! The screen is the absolutely necessary condition for any movie.
Turn on a movie projector into a night sky. No movie! Cannot have the movie with no screen. Cannot have life happening without the backdrop of your true nature of clear empty being.
So it is proposed that who you and I are is akin to the movie screen, who you are, who I am, who humans, being, are, is the SPACE in which the roller-coaster of life happening happens.
Being enraptured, "caught up", in the "picture show" seems to obscure or hide the screen. But seeing that the screen is self-evident and the necessary condition or context for the show might startle us into seeing that there is only the screen in essence. No screen no movie. No being no life.
Life occurs for us like a mesmerization when we ignore the screen and focus on the character appearing on the screen ("me").
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jupiviv
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Re: Defining and describing non-duality

Post by jupiviv »

@Dan Rowden, why is it kinda silly that Reality is words? It's perfectly logical to think of Reality as being words. If you disagree then please explain what this 'Reality' that you're talking about is, and how it relates to words.
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Dan Rowden
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Re: Defining and describing non-duality

Post by Dan Rowden »

How can Reality be words? Where do words come from?
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jupiviv
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Re: Defining and describing non-duality

Post by jupiviv »

Reality can be words if words are considered to be real. For example, I think these words are real.
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Dan Rowden
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Re: Defining and describing non-duality

Post by Dan Rowden »

I didn't say words aren't real, I said words aren't Reality.
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jupiviv
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Re: Defining and describing non-duality

Post by jupiviv »

And I asked you what this 'Reality' is that words are not, and how it is related(if it is related at all) to words.
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Dan Rowden
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Re: Defining and describing non-duality

Post by Dan Rowden »

Words are particular, finite entities. They are, of necessity, not Reality, which is no particular entity. This is something Laird has yet to get his mind around.
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jupiviv
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Re: Defining and describing non-duality

Post by jupiviv »

Why doesn't this monk know what's going outside the temple?

If Reality is not any particular entity then how can any particular entity not be Reality, since what that particular entity is not, also must be a particular entity...?

You are thinking of a Reality as a whole, including all particular entities. But even this whole, like all wholes, must actually be a particular entity - only you don't know it, which is what makes it a delusion.
Pam Seeback
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Re: Defining and describing non-duality

Post by Pam Seeback »

Dan Rowden wrote:
guest_of_logic wrote:Words are Reality too. Everything is.
Words are not Reality. Words are words, oddly enough. If words were Reality, then Reality would be words, and that's kinda silly.
Reality is not words, this is true.

Therefore, when one lives by words, they are not living the reality of themselves.

Therefore, when one is not living the reality of themselves, they are living illusion or delusion of themselves.
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Blair
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Re: Defining and describing non-duality

Post by Blair »

What an indiotically anthropomorphic thing to say.
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Kunga
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Re: Defining and describing non-duality

Post by Kunga »

Complete realization of the essential and undifferentiated oneness of the Sangsara and Nirvana, which, according to the Mahayana, are the Ultimate Duality, leads to that Deliverance of the Mind taught by the Enlightened One as being the aim and end of the Dharma, as it is in all systems of yoga and all schools of Buddhism and Hinduism.

Nirvana, the State Transcedent Over Sorrow, and, thus, over the Sangsara, is a state of vacuity, of the Voidness of the Mahayana, for it is empty of all conceiveable things, or qualities, which are of the Sangsara, the opposite of nirvana. Nirvana, as the Buddha teaches, neither is or is not; is neither existence, nor non-existence, being nor non-being, all of whichare, as Nagarjuna shows, illusory dualities. Nirvana, being thus beyond all sangsara concepts, transends all human predication.

NIRVANA CANNOT BE INTELLECTUALLY REALIZED, BECAUSE IT IS BEYOND INTELLECT. nOT BEING RELATIVE TO ANYTHING, IT TRANSENDS RELATIVITY; AND BEING BEYOND CONCEPTION, IS OF THE VOIDNESS.


In it's Totality, The Universal Essence is the One Mind, manifested through the multitudinous myriads of minds throughout all states of sangsaric existence. It is called ' The Essence of the Buddhas' , 'The All Foundation' , 'The Great Symbol' .......it is the Source of all bliss of Nirvana and all sorrow of Sangsara. Mind in it's microscopic aspect is variously described by the unenlightened, some calling it the ego or soul.

( quoted from the book :The Tibetan Book of the Great Liberation p. 4-5 )
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Re: Defining and describing non-duality

Post by cousinbasil »

prince wrote:What an indiotically anthropomorphic thing to say.
Interesting. You missed on "idiotically" yet you managed to get "anthropomorphic" right.

Try ieSpell, or else compose on a word processor with a spell-check.
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David Quinn
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Re: Defining and describing non-duality

Post by David Quinn »

Kunga wrote:NIRVANA CANNOT BE INTELLECTUALLY REALIZED, BECAUSE IT IS BEYOND INTELLECT. nOT BEING RELATIVE TO ANYTHING, IT TRANSENDS RELATIVITY; AND BEING BEYOND CONCEPTION, IS OF THE VOIDNESS.

( quoted from the book :The Tibetan Book of the Great Liberation p. 4-5 )

These sorts of quotes end up doing far more harm than good, for they down-play the intellectual aspect of enlightenment without at the same time down-playing the experiential element of it, when in reality the two always go together.

Put simply, enlightenment cannot occur without the full intellectual realization that nirvana has no nature. Without this intellectual realization, there is nothing. Without it, you remain firmly trapped in duality, no matter how many sublime experiences you have.

It isn't enough to simply accept the common pre-packaged view that nirvana is beyond conceptualization. One has to go much further than this and fully comprehend why it is beyond conceptualization. It is this full comprehension of "why" which leads to enlightenment.
  • Socrates used to go around Athens saying "You must know yourself". Once a student of his asked him "Do you know yourself? ". Socrates said "I don't know, but I understand this don't know.
When a person has mastered this comprehension, he not only stops trying to capture nirvana in concepts, but he also stops trying to enter into it experientially, to experience it in any shape or form. He ceases chasing phantoms right across the board, in all areas, not just in the area of the intellect. Most people these days, upon hearing the popular view that enlightenment is beyond the intellect, make the mistake of ceasing their intellectual strivings while still continuing on with their emotional and experiential strivings. They don't realize that they are engaging in irrational, contradictory behaviour that will always condemn them to failure.

Not that the gurus who peddle the populist stuff know or even care .....

-
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Ryan Rudolph
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Re: Defining and describing non-duality

Post by Ryan Rudolph »

Kunga,
can you explain to someone the taste of honey ?
no, but you can explain to them what is not the taste of honey, or where to find honey, or where not to find honey.

Suppose you thought you were tasting honey, but the truth is that you were actually tasting hardened urine pellets. Wouldn't it be my responsibility to tell you that what you were experiencing was not honey? Especially if you were giddy with happiness, and trying to share your hardened urine pellets with everyone?

Or perhaps you were searching for honey in a septic tank, rather then in a tree with a large bee hive? do you follow?

Or perhaps your description logically of what honey was didn't match what honey is so you were misguided and misdirected...

Language is a pointer. words point, but the pointer is not the pointed. People often times confuse the pointer as the pointed. Meaning, they get a warm fuzzy feeling from the pointer, and the miss the pointed.

I know someone who once told me, "what I love about enlightenment is how mysterious and dark it is" And I said, "no, it is not any of that, you are projecting emotions upon those words, and enjoying the emotions, the association, but you have no idea what the thing called enlightenment is"

That is what I hate about gurus who spew all that crap, they are selling people emotions, not the truth. The truth is actually very specific, but sometimes very difficult to understand because the ego thinks in linear dualistic terms, and the truth is mind blowing to that framework. It takes a lot of careful critical thinking to discover, critical thinking combined with an honest inward examination of ones own mindset/behavior/habits and so on.
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Cory Duchesne
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Re: Defining and describing non-duality

Post by Cory Duchesne »

It's important to be aware of the context in which Reality is ineffable, unknowable and mysterious, and the context in which it is not. Reality is ineffable and unknowable in the sense that the words, concepts and ideas are not Reality and that any descriptions, concepts and models fall short. Reality is mysterious insofar as scientific problems, including mind/body problem have no complete answer. We can never completely know things, empirically. We only know our minds and there is forever a barrier between our senses and the "other side". We cannot bridge over to it.

But by saying what we can't know about reality empirically, we are in turn affirming what it is we can know about it, logically.
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