Arbitrary absolutism: the values of the house philosophy

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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Kelly Jones
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Re: Arbitrary absolutism: the values of the house philosophy

Post by Kelly Jones »

Shardrol,

Do you think that wisdom (formlessness) is more accurately expressed in symbolic form using feminine rather than masculine traits? And would you conclude by this that women themselves are intrinsically wiser than men - or have more potential for wisdom?

Actually, it would be clearer, probably, if you shared your thoughts on what the symbolic form actually represents. Would you say women manifest emptiness through understanding it - by consciously aligning themselves with the void? So that their form, behaviour, and self-expression is a conscious outpouring of Sunyata?

Or do they manifest emptiness in some other way, perhaps by floating breezily through life as if attached to nothing, but doing so unconsciously and are driven by other causes - such that their "formlessness" is a coincidental similarity? Like butterflies, which are known in many languages as divine creatures....?

Feel free to explain it in your own way.


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Re: Arbitrary absolutism: the values of the house philosophy

Post by Shardrol »

Kelly Jones wrote:Shardrol,

Do you think that wisdom (formlessness) is more accurately expressed in symbolic form using feminine rather than masculine traits? And would you conclude by this that women themselves are intrinsically wiser than men - or have more potential for wisdom?

Actually, it would be clearer, probably, if you shared your thoughts on what the symbolic form actually represents. Would you say women manifest emptiness through understanding it - by consciously aligning themselves with the void? So that their form, behaviour, and self-expression is a conscious outpouring of Sunyata?

Or do they manifest emptiness in some other way, perhaps by floating breezily through life as if attached to nothing, but doing so unconsciously and are driven by other causes - such that their "formlessness" is a coincidental similarity? Like butterflies, which are known in many languages as divine creatures....?

Feel free to explain it in your own way.
Kelly

Spiritual symbols are used by those with clear vision of Reality to communicate it to the people of their time & place & culture. Since form arises out of emptiness, viewing form as male & emptiness as female is an easily-understood metaphor of pregnancy & birth. (Emptiness or space is sometimes poetically described as ‘the womb of potentiality’.)

I usually don’t go in for quotations, I like to make up my own words, but there’s a simple & perfect example of nonduality expressed in terms of form & emptiness in the Heart Sutra: ‘form is emptiness, emptiness is form; form is none other than emptiness, emptiness is none other than form’

Wisdom & compassion are ways of talking about the enlightened state in human terms. Compassion is form, wisdom is emptiness but compassion is wisdom & wisdom is compassion; they are not separate. .

Out of their wisdom, Buddhas spontaneously manifest compassionate activity. This is their communication with beings. It doesn’t mean that they know a lot & are very nice to people, it means that their every action is a manifestation of the nondual enlightened state.

If one has understanding of the nonduality of form & emptiness it can be expressed using any two things that are commonly viewed as opposites: earth & sky, hot & cold, dark & light, red & green. And either pole could represent either form or emptiness. This is because they are nondual.

What this has to do with intellectual, cultural, psychological or biological characteristics of human men & women is: nothing.
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Re: Arbitrary absolutism: the values of the house philosophy

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Would like to add that emptiness, when dealing with the human intellect, is also a symbol which represents one has not went into themselves where the fullness of life will reveal emptiness to be a vacuum where Spirit is and matter is not. No human thought can enter into this vacuum.

This means all one has to do is rend the veil of their materiality of thoughts or matter which will then open ones eyes to the infinite form of Spirit's creation in the depth of the invisibility of ones self. When one enters into the emptiness of the thought matter of impermanent thought, they discover the full reality of the invisible reality of the words they speak to be the forms of their existence everywhere in their consciousness. And it is here, in this place which the sages only wish to envision that comprehension that Spirit does not have to wait to material a seed to be the fullness of the tree, and the tree to be the fullness of the seed of any thought.

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa
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Re: Arbitrary absolutism: the values of the house philosophy

Post by Kelly Jones »

Thanks for replying, Shardrol.
Shardrol wrote:Since form arises out of emptiness, viewing form as male & emptiness as female is an easily-understood metaphor of pregnancy & birth. (Emptiness or space is sometimes poetically described as ‘the womb of potentiality’.)
Theoretically, 50% of children are female. Why do you think form is described as the male component? Why not simply use the metaphor of mother and child?

It may be relevant to include the idea of the bodhisattva here. Why do you think the Dharma-protector, or the deity of compassion, is described and imaged as masculine?

If one has understanding of the nonduality of form & emptiness it can be expressed using any two things that are commonly viewed as opposites: earth & sky, hot & cold, dark & light, red & green. And either pole could represent either form or emptiness. This is because they are nondual.
Okay, you are saying that nonduality is indicated through the interdependent origination of things, such that things don't ultimately exist. This is including the ideas of dual and nondual, revealing both to be illusory separations.

What this has to do with intellectual, cultural, psychological or biological characteristics of human men & women is: nothing.
Well, do you think biological males and females are equally capable of wisdom? Both having identical capability, in theory and practice, for Buddhahood?


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Re: Arbitrary absolutism: the values of the house philosophy

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Kelly Jones wrote:Thanks for replying, Shardrol.
You’re welcome.
Shardrol: Since form arises out of emptiness, viewing form as male & emptiness as female is an easily-understood metaphor of pregnancy & birth. (Emptiness or space is sometimes poetically described as ‘the womb of potentiality’.)

Kelly Jones: Theoretically, 50% of children are female. Why do you think form is described as the male component? Why not simply use the metaphor of mother and child?
I don't understand the significance of 50% of children being female. Male/female is a more basic polarity than mother/child.
Kelly Jones wrote:It may be relevant to include the idea of the bodhisattva here. Why do you think the Dharma-protector, or the deity of compassion, is described and imaged as masculine?
Because compassion is symbolized as male & the female symbol is wisdom.

In Tibetan Buddhism the bodhisattva is described as a ‘warrior of compassion’. He often is depicted with many arms, symbolizing his ability to manifest endless compassion toward beings by leading them to enlightenment. I imagine that the fact that, in all cultures with which I am familiar, the concept of ‘warrior’ is most often associated with men is part of what makes this symbol ‘work’.
Shardrol: If one has understanding of the nonduality of form & emptiness it can be expressed using any two things that are commonly viewed as opposites: earth & sky, hot & cold, dark & light, red & green. And either pole could represent either form or emptiness. This is because they are nondual.

Kelly Jones: Okay, you are saying that nonduality is indicated through the interdependent origination of things, such that things don't ultimately exist.
I don’t think I was saying that exactly. The concept of interdependent origination is a way of showing that things (forms) are inherently empty. I wouldn’t describe this as not existing, though. They exist as appearances. Then they change, disappear or dissolve. That is the nature of form.

You could also say that emptiness isn’t really empty but is always full of form, not yet born. That is the nature of emptiness.
Kelly Jones wrote:This is including the ideas of dual and nondual, revealing both to be illusory separations.
Yeah! Isn’t that great? However, I didn’t mention it because I was trying to be as simple as possible.
Kelly Jones wrote:Well, do you think biological males and females are equally capable of wisdom? Both having identical capability, in theory and practice, for Buddhahood?
I do.
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Re: Arbitrary absolutism: the values of the house philosophy

Post by Kelly Jones »

Shardrol wrote:KJ: Why not simply use the metaphor of mother and child?

Shardrol: I don't understand the significance of 50% of children being female.
The baby in the womb is symbolised as male, not female. Why do you think that is?

Male/female is a more basic polarity than mother/child.
For human psychology?

Shardrol: In Tibetan Buddhism the bodhisattva is described as a ‘warrior of compassion’. He often is depicted with many arms, symbolizing his ability to manifest endless compassion toward beings by leading them to enlightenment. I imagine that the fact that, in all cultures with which I am familiar, the concept of ‘warrior’ is most often associated with men is part of what makes this symbol ‘work’.
Would you relate the masculine association with war and protection to that with form? Why do you think that form is regarded as masculine?

They exist as appearances. Then they change, disappear or dissolve. That is the nature of form. You could also say that emptiness isn’t really empty but is always full of form, not yet born. That is the nature of emptiness.
I don't know if appearances really change, disappear or dissolve. To me, they don't exist in the first place. There's only formlessness.

KJ: This is including the ideas of dual and nondual, revealing both to be illusory separations.

S: Yeah! Isn’t that great? However, I didn’t mention it because I was trying to be as simple as possible.
Best to go to the truth directly.

KJ: Well, do you think biological males and females are equally capable of wisdom? Both having identical capability, in theory and practice, for Buddhahood?

S: I do.
Do you know any female Buddhas, or sages? Females who've produced wise words that I can check out? I'd love to know of any. Particularly interested in those individuals who're not stuck in rituals and traditions.


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Re: Arbitrary absolutism: the values of the house philosophy

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Kelly Jones wrote:The baby in the womb is symbolised as male, not female. Why do you think that is?
I think you're taking the pregnancy metaphor too literally. I see 'pregnant' as a poetic way of getting at the idea that emptiness isn't actually empty but full of potential form.
S: Male/female is a more basic polarity than mother/child.

KJ: For human psychology?
For human biology, I'd say.
Would you relate the masculine association with war and protection to that with form?
I'd relate the male association of war/protection with compassionate activity.
Why do you think that form is regarded as masculine?
Emptiness as female, 'the womb of potentiality', seems more obvious as a symbol. Form, with its qualities of impermanence, change & lack of independent existence, could be symbolized as either male or female.
KJ: Well, do you think biological males and females are equally capable of wisdom? Both having identical capability, in theory and practice, for Buddhahood?

S: I do.

KJ: Do you know any female Buddhas, or sages? Females who've produced wise words that I can check out? I'd love to know of any. Particularly interested in those individuals who're not stuck in rituals and traditions.
Yeshe Tsogyel is renowned as the first woman to become enlightened when Padmasambhava brought Buddhism to Tibet. Nothing written by her survives, if she did ever write anything. There may be accounts of her teachings written by others, I don't know.

I have met several women whom I see as Buddhas. Although I wouldn't describe them as 'stuck', all of them are involved in the tradition of Tibetan Buddhism, so they're probably not what you're looking for.
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Re: Arbitrary absolutism: the values of the house philosophy

Post by Kelly Jones »

S: I see 'pregnant' as a poetic way of getting at the idea that emptiness isn't actually empty but full of potential form.

[snip]

KJ: Why do you think that form is regarded as masculine?

S: Emptiness as female, 'the womb of potentiality', seems more obvious as a symbol. Form, with its qualities of impermanence, change & lack of independent existence, could be symbolized as either male or female.
Could you share what were the thoughts leading you to say that form is masculine?


Yeshe Tsogyel is renowned as the first woman to become enlightened when Padmasambhava brought Buddhism to Tibet. Nothing written by her survives, if she did ever write anything. There may be accounts of her teachings written by others, I don't know.
Could you give me the evidence that led you to judge her to be a Buddha or sage?


I have met several women whom I see as Buddhas. Although I wouldn't describe them as 'stuck', all of them are involved in the tradition of Tibetan Buddhism, so they're probably not what you're looking for.
A Buddha is a perfectly enlightened being, the wisest of the wise. It's the one who is fully immersed in emptiness in every moment, and helps others to break out of the deluded attachment to form. I don't think a Buddha would ever be involved in traditional practices. That would indicate weakness, and therefore also delusion, so such a person couldn't be a Buddha.


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Re: Arbitrary absolutism: the values of the house philosophy

Post by Shardrol »

Kelly
Shardrol: I have met several women whom I see as Buddhas. Although I wouldn't describe them as 'stuck', all of them are involved in the tradition of Tibetan Buddhism, so they're probably not what you're looking for.

Kelly Jones: A Buddha is a perfectly enlightened being, the wisest of the wise. It's the one who is fully immersed in emptiness in every moment, and helps others to break out of the deluded attachment to form. I don't think a Buddha would ever be involved in traditional practices. That would indicate weakness, and therefore also delusion, so such a person couldn't be a Buddha.
I know you believe that involvement in a tradition indicates weakness & delusion. That's why I said they probably weren't what you're looking for.
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Re: Arbitrary absolutism: the values of the house philosophy

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Shardrol wrote:In Tibetan Buddhism, wisdom is viewed as female & compassion is viewed as male ... Emptiness as female, 'the womb of potentiality', seems more obvious as a symbol. Form, with its qualities of impermanence, change & lack of independent existence, could be symbolized as either male or female.
It's interesting to read how Victor & Victoria Trimondi summarized the feminine principle in Buddhism:
  • 1. The “sacrifice of the feminine principle” is from the outset a fundamental event in the teachings of Buddha . It corresponds to the Buddhist rejection of life, nature and the soul. In this original phase, the bearer of androcentric power is the historical Buddha himself.

    2. In Hinayana Buddhism, the “Low Vehicle”, the “sacrifice of the feminine” is carried out with the help of meditation. The Hinayana monk fears and dreads women, and attempts to escape them. He also makes use of meditative exercises to destroy and transcend life, nature and the soul. In this phase the bearer of androcentric power is the is the ascetic holy man or Arhat.

    3. In Mahayana, the “Great Vehicle”, flight from women is succeeded by compassion for them. The woman is to be freed from her physical body, and the Mahayana monk selflessly helps her to prepare for the necessary transformation, so that she can become a man in her next reincarnation. The feminine is thus still considered inferior and despicable, as that which must be sacrificed in order to be transformed into something purely masculine. In both founding philosophical schools of Mahayana Buddhism (Madhyamika and Yogachara), life, nature, the body and the soul are accordingly sacrificed to the absolute spirit (citta). The bearer of androcentric power in this phase is the “Savior” or Bodhisattva.
With Vajrayana, the story becomes rather more convoluted. Since nirvana is samsara in the ultimate sense, with samsara being the wheel (a feminine symbol of eternal recurrence, of creation and death, of things and matter, ignorance and suffering), one could only in this sense say things like "women are heaven; women are Dharma; women are Buddha; the "mother of Buddha", women are the sangha; women are the perfection of wisdom”. Beware though of all the implications, or why the same things aren't said about men....

In Tibetan Buddhism any mercurial, alchemical practices have a traditional function and meaning, symbolizing union of nirvana and samsara, or any other dualism. Because of the usual obsession with anything magical and exciting to our senses, these elements have been twisted and corrupted immensely over time. And anyway, one talks about a relatively tiny subset of Buddhism, just for trying to elevate the female gender or feminine "principle" in the face of a generally hostile traditional Buddhist teaching?
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Re: Arbitrary absolutism: the values of the house philosophy

Post by Pam Seeback »

Diebart wrote: The “sacrifice of the feminine principle” is from the outset a fundamental event in the teachings of Buddha . It corresponds to the Buddhist rejection of life, nature and the soul. In this original phase, the bearer of androcentric power is the historical Buddha himself.
This teaching relates to biblical wisdom as well, the gathering of Eve unto Adam, and then of Adam-Eve, unto the Christ. God, in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself. This sacrifice must be made of every man who desires to be of his Singular-Plural I Am. Subject [Adam] consumes projected object [Eve of attachment to form - the earth mentality]. Without Eve, how can Adam survive? He cannot. When Eve is gathered up, Adam is also gathered up.

Whether of Buddhist teaching or biblical teaching, bottom line is that it is every man's responsibility to go within himself and observe, within himself, for himself, the arising of the female principle of attachment to form. When he does this, he then comes to understand that it is upon him to exercise his will of discipline to stop Her from arising within himself. At some point, we stop talking about what woman or female means from our intellect that points, and we become the activity of the direction of our pointing.
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Re: Arbitrary absolutism: the values of the house philosophy

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Diebert van Rhijn wrote:It's interesting to read how Victor & Victoria Trimondi summarized the feminine principle in Buddhism:
  • 1. The “sacrifice of the feminine principle” is from the outset a fundamental event in the teachings of Buddha . It corresponds to the Buddhist rejection of life, nature and the soul. In this original phase, the bearer of androcentric power is the historical Buddha himself.

    2. In Hinayana Buddhism, the “Low Vehicle”, the “sacrifice of the feminine” is carried out with the help of meditation. The Hinayana monk fears and dreads women, and attempts to escape them. He also makes use of meditative exercises to destroy and transcend life, nature and the soul. In this phase the bearer of androcentric power is the is the ascetic holy man or Arhat.

    3. In Mahayana, the “Great Vehicle”, flight from women is succeeded by compassion for them. The woman is to be freed from her physical body, and the Mahayana monk selflessly helps her to prepare for the necessary transformation, so that she can become a man in her next reincarnation. The feminine is thus still considered inferior and despicable, as that which must be sacrificed in order to be transformed into something purely masculine. In both founding philosophical schools of Mahayana Buddhism (Madhyamika and Yogachara), life, nature, the body and the soul are accordingly sacrificed to the absolute spirit (citta). The bearer of androcentric power in this phase is the “Savior” or Bodhisattva.
With Vajrayana, the story becomes rather more convoluted. Since nirvana is samsara in the ultimate sense, with samsara being the wheel (a feminine symbol of eternal recurrence, of creation and death, of things and matter, ignorance and suffering), one could only in this sense say things like "women are heaven; women are Dharma; women are Buddha; the "mother of Buddha", women are the sangha; women are the perfection of wisdom”. Beware though of all the implications, or why the same things aren't said about men....

In Tibetan Buddhism any mercurial, alchemical practices have a traditional function and meaning, symbolizing union of nirvana and samsara, or any other dualism. Because of the usual obsession with anything magical and exciting to our senses, these elements have been twisted and corrupted immensely over time. And anyway, one talks about a relatively tiny subset of Buddhism, just for trying to elevate the female gender or feminine "principle" in the face of a generally hostile traditional Buddhist teaching?
What I wrote was from the perspective of Vajrayana.

I agree with some of what the Trimondis say about sutric practice, in which the idea is to renounce form & experience emptiness through monastic discipline & intellectual reasoning. Monks are all men, so naturally women are something they have to renounce. It's similar in many ways to what's come to be known here as the QRS philosophy. The forum member Prince has even come up with some quite traditional formulations (women as bags of shit, or similar) that are used by monks to help them detach themselves through generating revulsion.

Vajrayana is not about rejecting form, it's about the integration of apparent dualities such as form & emptiness.

The Buddhist vehicles are quite different from each other in their view & practice, which makes talking about 'Buddhism' as if it is a particular thing almost always inaccurate & confusing.
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Re: Arbitrary absolutism: the values of the house philosophy

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Shardrol wrote:I know you believe that involvement in a tradition indicates weakness & delusion.
Training wheels for the timid? Distraction for the procrastinators? Company for the lonely?

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Re: Arbitrary absolutism: the values of the house philosophy

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Diebert van Rhijn wrote:With Vajrayana, the story becomes rather more convoluted. Since nirvana is samsara in the ultimate sense, with samsara being the wheel (a feminine symbol of eternal recurrence, of creation and death, of things and matter, ignorance and suffering), one could only in this sense say things like "women are heaven; women are Dharma; women are Buddha; the "mother of Buddha", women are the sangha; women are the perfection of wisdom”. Beware though of all the implications, or why the same things aren't said about men....

In Tibetan Buddhism any mercurial, alchemical practices have a traditional function and meaning, symbolizing union of nirvana and samsara, or any other dualism. Because of the usual obsession with anything magical and exciting to our senses, these elements have been twisted and corrupted immensely over time. And anyway, one talks about a relatively tiny subset of Buddhism, just for trying to elevate the female gender or feminine "principle" in the face of a generally hostile traditional Buddhist teaching?
When I wrote my reply, I didn't realize that the last two paragraphs of your post were written by you rather than the Trimondis.

In Vajrayana, as in most religious traditions, ideas are expressed from the point of view of the practitioner being a man. When Sri Ramakhrishna spoke of the necessity of renouncing 'kamani-kanchan' (women & gold) he was addressing the attachments of men.

This is a reflection of culture. It's a mistake to take it as meaning specifically women & not men. Women would need to renounce attachment to men (in Sutra) or to view men as heaven, Dharma, Buddha, sangha, the perfection of compassion, etc (in Vajrayana).
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Re: Arbitrary absolutism: the values of the house philosophy

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Shardrol wrote:This is a reflection of culture. It's a mistake to take it as meaning specifically women & not men. Women would need to renounce attachment to men (in Sutra) or to view men as heaven, Dharma, Buddha, sangha, the perfection of compassion, etc (in Vajrayana).
Renouncing attachments sounds like "becoming a man" to me. The male is typically the separated one, as he acts or contemplates on the world, the nature of the world and the nature of nature. Everything in and about woman herself would conspire naturally against this act.

It's not attachment to men a woman can renounce: that very attachment to a man, the offspring or the group is what defines deep down her feminine aspects. She never stands alone as woman. Therefore, by abandoning those attachments she abandons "womanhood" in all meaningful ways. Some might think still of themselves as woman but it would be a faint echo.
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Re: Arbitrary absolutism: the values of the house philosophy

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

movingalways wrote:Diebart wrote: The “sacrifice of the feminine principle”...
Sorry, my name is Diebert and the quote was from Victor & Victoria Trimondi which I don't want to support or reject right now. It depends on what is offered.
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Re: Arbitrary absolutism: the values of the house philosophy

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Diebert van Rhijn wrote:It's not attachment to men a woman can renounce: that very attachment to a man, the offspring or the group is what defines deep down her feminine aspects. She never stands alone as woman. Therefore, by abandoning those attachments she abandons "womanhood" in all meaningful ways. Some might think still of themselves as woman but it would be a faint echo.
I have heard this point of view extensively elaborated on this forum but I don't share it. I think we all stand alone, whatever delusions we may manufacture to try & avoid this reality. I don't define women by their attachments anymore than I define men by theirs.
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Re: Arbitrary absolutism: the values of the house philosophy

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Shardrol wrote:I think we all stand alone, whatever delusions we may manufacture to try & avoid this reality. I don't define women by their attachments anymore than I define men by theirs.
Fair enough. There are many ways to make or break definitions and it takes a stand alone creator and destroyer of delusion to do so.
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Re: Arbitrary absolutism: the values of the house philosophy

Post by Kunga »

i highly doubt truth can be prejudiced... and wisdom arrogant
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Re: Arbitrary absolutism: the values of the house philosophy

Post by cousinbasil »

Kunga wrote:i highly doubt truth can be prejudiced... and wisdom arrogant
Wisdom can sure seem arrogant, though. "I am the alpha and the omega..."
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Re: Arbitrary absolutism: the values of the house philosophy

Post by Kunga »

"I am the alpha and the omega..."

Whoever said that couldn't of been God....(unless God is born and dies)...so it must of been some arrogant reptillian-brained person ..
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Re: Arbitrary absolutism: the values of the house philosophy

Post by Tomas »

-cousin basil-
"I am the alpha and the omega..."

-Kunga-
Whoever said that couldn't of been God....(unless God is born and dies)...so it must of been some arrogant reptillian-brained person ..

-tomas-
There is sunshine, moonlight, fish munching on kelp, robins looking for worms, wolves checking out diseased buffalo, ants moving their clan's eggs, and last but not least .. pro-creating humans going to and fro.

When the heart begins - and then stops - pulsating .. you (and we) dissolve back into the earth's soil.

You (and everyone who knew your) Alpha and the Omega will be as though you never existed.
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Re: Arbitrary absolutism: the values of the house philosophy

Post by cousinbasil »

Kunga wrote:"I am the alpha and the omega..."

Whoever said that couldn't of been God....(unless God is born and dies)...so it must of been some arrogant reptillian-brained person ..
Revelation 1:8
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

Meaning precisely that the speaker is NOT subject to birth and death.

...and it's "must have been," not "must of been."


Christ, do I have to explain everything?
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Re: Arbitrary absolutism: the values of the house philosophy

Post by Dan Rowden »

It might have been better for the author to have said "eternal" rather than "alpha and omega" because the latter connotes a beginning and an end.
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Re: Arbitrary absolutism: the values of the house philosophy

Post by cousinbasil »

Dan Rowden wrote:It might have been better for the author to have said "eternal" rather than "alpha and omega" because the latter connotes a beginning and an end.
Same book, different chapter:

"Revelation 22:13
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."

The author meant to connote it, apparently. In fact, he evidently wanted to avoid any speculation whatsoever on the point, so he comes right out and says it, for the benefit of those who might think he meant something else.

If you read it correctly, there is no ambiguity to the intent.
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