Because you are personally offended. (and misinterpreting the usage of the words feminine and woman)Carmel wrote:I simply think it is wrong. wrong. wrong.
Arbitrary absolutism: the values of the house philosophy
Re: Arbitrary absolutism: the values of the house philosophy
- Kelly Jones
- Posts: 2665
- Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2006 3:51 pm
- Location: Australia
- Contact:
Re: Arbitrary absolutism: the values of the house philosophy
You have. You claimed to know what the heights are, in this statement:Carmel wrote:David: Will anyone ever ask you, Carmel, whether you are really hitting the heights or not?
Carmel: I've never claimed to be...
As well as this one:You aren't walking the walk...If you think I'm the only one who sees it, guess again...
You could only say they're misguided by contrast with what you know to be true.The difference is, young, easily influenced young boys/men buy into the misguided ideas you are selling them.
And in this one:
You could only say that rejection of feminine psychology is wrong if you know what is right - if you know what tools are used in going all the way to the heights.I think some of the ideas here, can and do cause damage to young minds. I sincerely believe that it is perverse on many levels. This is not nor has it ever been about me being personally offended. I simply think it is wrong. wrong. wrong.
.
Re: Arbitrary absolutism: the values of the house philosophy
Carmel:
[quote]I think some of the ideas here, can and do cause damage to young minds. I sincerely believe that it is perverse on many levels. This is not nor has it ever been about me being personally offended. I simply think it is wrong. wrong. wrong.
Kelly:
You could only say that rejection of feminine psychology is wrong if you know what is right - if you know what tools are used in going all the way to the heights.
Carmel:
Actually, Kelly, I was talking to David, not you. As far as I'm concerned anyone who spews the constant bile that you do, has no authority to decide anything regarding matters related to enlightenment, or "going all the way to the heights". One doesn't need to be enlightened to recognize the blatant hypocrisy which you constantly employ. Mere observation is sufficient to see it.
[quote]I think some of the ideas here, can and do cause damage to young minds. I sincerely believe that it is perverse on many levels. This is not nor has it ever been about me being personally offended. I simply think it is wrong. wrong. wrong.
Kelly:
You could only say that rejection of feminine psychology is wrong if you know what is right - if you know what tools are used in going all the way to the heights.
Carmel:
Actually, Kelly, I was talking to David, not you. As far as I'm concerned anyone who spews the constant bile that you do, has no authority to decide anything regarding matters related to enlightenment, or "going all the way to the heights". One doesn't need to be enlightened to recognize the blatant hypocrisy which you constantly employ. Mere observation is sufficient to see it.
- Kelly Jones
- Posts: 2665
- Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2006 3:51 pm
- Location: Australia
- Contact:
Re: Arbitrary absolutism: the values of the house philosophy
If women aren't the fragile, overly sensitive, frothy creatures that men love them to be, then why aren't women everywhere enlightened, or steadfastly committed to being enlightened?
If they're not what I'm saying they are, then where's the evidence of wisdom?
If you look carefully, you'll realise that my answer to these questions is about men, not women. It's men who - like the animals they are - want to stay away from the Infinite, and whose egotism loves women as soft, reaffirming companions - not as Buddhas.
Why is it bilious and prejudiced to point this out? I value wisdom, and we're not going to get anywhere by pretending.
.
If they're not what I'm saying they are, then where's the evidence of wisdom?
If you look carefully, you'll realise that my answer to these questions is about men, not women. It's men who - like the animals they are - want to stay away from the Infinite, and whose egotism loves women as soft, reaffirming companions - not as Buddhas.
Why is it bilious and prejudiced to point this out? I value wisdom, and we're not going to get anywhere by pretending.
.
- Kelly Jones
- Posts: 2665
- Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2006 3:51 pm
- Location: Australia
- Contact:
Re: Arbitrary absolutism: the values of the house philosophy
And we're not going to get anywhere with whopping big ad hominems, either.
.
.
- David Quinn
- Posts: 5708
- Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2001 6:56 am
- Location: Australia
- Contact:
Re: Arbitrary absolutism: the values of the house philosophy
Carmel wrote:David:
I may or may not be a fraud, but at least the issue is raised with me. Will anyone ever ask you, Carmel, whether you are really hitting the heights or not?
Carmel:
I've never claimed to be...
And there's the rub.
-
Re: Arbitrary absolutism: the values of the house philosophy
no, you're really not. Thank you for stating the obvious.Kelly Jones wrote:And we're not going to get anywhere with whopping big ad hominems, either.
.
Re: Arbitrary absolutism: the values of the house philosophy
David Quinn wrote:Carmel wrote:David:
I may or may not be a fraud, but at least the issue is raised with me. Will anyone ever ask you, Carmel, whether you are really hitting the heights or not?
Carmel:
I've never claimed to be...
D: And there's the rub.
Yep, I know, it chaps your ass, doesn't it?
- Kelly Jones
- Posts: 2665
- Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2006 3:51 pm
- Location: Australia
- Contact:
Re: Arbitrary absolutism: the values of the house philosophy
Well, Carmel, since you're not claiming to be wise, or - at the very least - understand the basics of how to become wise, then you have no grounds to reject the rejection of feminine psychology. You can't be certain that an exclusive promotion of masculine psychology - exclusive meaning that it includes the rejection of feminine psychology - as defined in this forum and elsewhere, is not an unhelpful tool in the path to enlightenment. So, there's a very real possibility that you are unable to recognise the value or purpose of some idea, because of your lack of wisdom. In fact, you may be blurring matters, and confusing mere hatred of women, with something much purer.
Simply casting aside this possibility as unlikely isn't going to cut it, especially if you don't understand what is meant by feminine psychology. And that's a common problem - since even most men haven't really thought about what it is. Take Loki, for instance, who is an otherwise bright young bloke. This should set some alarms beeping, as it could well point to something that people prefer not to think about. Something that people prefer to block out consciousness of.
.
Simply casting aside this possibility as unlikely isn't going to cut it, especially if you don't understand what is meant by feminine psychology. And that's a common problem - since even most men haven't really thought about what it is. Take Loki, for instance, who is an otherwise bright young bloke. This should set some alarms beeping, as it could well point to something that people prefer not to think about. Something that people prefer to block out consciousness of.
.
Re: Arbitrary absolutism: the values of the house philosophy
Loki is right. You are wrong...you've been duped, brainwashed, indoctrinated.
keep dancing for MAN kelly, keep dancing...like a puppet on a string...
keep dancing for MAN kelly, keep dancing...like a puppet on a string...
Re: Arbitrary absolutism: the values of the house philosophy
Ahahahaha, who's dancing on a string?
- David Quinn
- Posts: 5708
- Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2001 6:56 am
- Location: Australia
- Contact:
Re: Arbitrary absolutism: the values of the house philosophy
One thing I always like about the woman issue is how effectively it reveals people's characters....
-
-
Re: Arbitrary absolutism: the values of the house philosophy
indeed, or lack thereof...or it may reveal the ego of a "sage"...or...a hypnotic ass crack... :)
I said nearly exactly those words, in this very thread, some time ago. funny that.
I said nearly exactly those words, in this very thread, some time ago. funny that.
- Kelly Jones
- Posts: 2665
- Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2006 3:51 pm
- Location: Australia
- Contact:
Re: Arbitrary absolutism: the values of the house philosophy
Carmel, why don't you explore the concept of masculine and feminine psychology, instead of responding with ad hominem arguments of the basest kind?
There are general psychologies that are different on sex-based lines. You can't ignore or deny that with any intellectual integrity. And, since humans have evolved with animal drives, the sex-based psychologies must inevitably influence one's world-view --- and therefore affect the pursuit of philosophy. You can't ignore or deny this line of reasoning for the same reason.
If you want silence, even to compartmentalise your mind to push away thinking about it, that's fine. Have a break. It will be there for you to think about later, when you're ready. But don't keep taking the line of defensive name-calling. That's ignoble, and I think it eats away at one's conscience to rely on that option.
.
There are general psychologies that are different on sex-based lines. You can't ignore or deny that with any intellectual integrity. And, since humans have evolved with animal drives, the sex-based psychologies must inevitably influence one's world-view --- and therefore affect the pursuit of philosophy. You can't ignore or deny this line of reasoning for the same reason.
If you want silence, even to compartmentalise your mind to push away thinking about it, that's fine. Have a break. It will be there for you to think about later, when you're ready. But don't keep taking the line of defensive name-calling. That's ignoble, and I think it eats away at one's conscience to rely on that option.
.
Re: Arbitrary absolutism: the values of the house philosophy
a foot in the mouth is a foot in the bush
Re: Arbitrary absolutism: the values of the house philosophy
Don't be such a hypocrite.
You are constantly calling people rude names, most recently:
"mentally retarded", "dogs", "idiots", then try to pass yourself off as some sort of wise person?
...thereby revealing your character. Give it a rest Kelly, I've no interest in you or your opinions. Worry about your own problems, of which there are many.
You are constantly calling people rude names, most recently:
"mentally retarded", "dogs", "idiots", then try to pass yourself off as some sort of wise person?
...thereby revealing your character. Give it a rest Kelly, I've no interest in you or your opinions. Worry about your own problems, of which there are many.
Re: Arbitrary absolutism: the values of the house philosophy
Diebert:
There are various competing theories about the nature of the feminine too. But it doesn't matter for my comparison now does it? I didn't claim the masculine was the past and the feminine the future, even when it might seem that way at times. My point was that seeming opposites can have a completely different nature and blending or balancing acts become a category error: there's nothing to balance or mix.
Carmel:
The Hermetics explain it thusly:
"The part of the Masculine principle seems to be that of directing a certain inherent energy toward the Feminine principle, and thus starting into activity the creative process. But the Feminine principle is always the one doing the active creative work-and this is so on all planes. And yet, each principle is incapable of operative energy without the assistance of the other. In some forms of life, the two principles are combined in one organism. For that matter, everything in the organic world manifests both genders."
This paragraph articulates more thoroughly what I said previously: There is always a constant interplay between the "two" principles.
As for time, past, present and future may be, as Einstein theorized, merely perceptible due to our consciousness. From what I understand, he thought that all three states, past, present and future, in the absence of perception, existed simultaneously. Unfortunately, I'm not equipped to explain it in any more detail than that, perhaps someone else here knows something more about this?
Diebert:
I don't think you can pull that trick: "compassion is considered". No way you can back that up apart from having a personal opinion on it. The only thing that's considered is a generally stronger emotional action-response with females, which basically adds up to empathy. And even empathy might not be gender specific, some researchers have suggested it to be a "longstanding cultural stereotype". Something women have a fine knack in responding to, as well. Which by the way opens up the possibility empathic behavior might not always be what it looks like, as one cannot easily measure if one actually senses or cares for another. Only outward responses to obvious clues in a monitored environment are measured.
Carmel:
A few weeks ago, I was perusing the art musuem in my city. In the section of Indian art, there was a Hindu statue from the 14th century which depicted two figures, the figures were dancing together. The God of wisdom was represented by a male figure, the goddess of compassion, by a female figure. ...Compassion is universally represented by the feminine ideal. This is not simply my "opinion".
As for empathy, it's not something that can be measured, to the best of my knowledge. I'm not claiming that it is gender specific, but neither is wisdom, or any human trait for that matter. I don't find the tendency of "claiming" the best traits of humanity, then arbitrarily assigning them to only one gender to be productive. It's not a competition.
C:
No, not within a human being. All people are ignorant, to varying degrees. To say otherwise would imply omniscience.[/quote]
Diebert: Well, I did specify "avidya" which means ignorance of the "real nature of things". And wisdom in the context of this forum means essentially knowledge of the way, the nature of existence, which might provide some needed clarity to or freedom from whatever else that would come to mind.
So do you think one should strive to know something about existence but mixed in with some grave misidentification for good measure?[/quote]
Carmel:
It was you who told me that there are no absolutes when discussing "the absolute". Perfect wisdom is an ideal and therefore unattainable. One can only strive toward the ideal...or ideals. Perfect wisdom, includes both the masculine and feminine ideals...
There are various competing theories about the nature of the feminine too. But it doesn't matter for my comparison now does it? I didn't claim the masculine was the past and the feminine the future, even when it might seem that way at times. My point was that seeming opposites can have a completely different nature and blending or balancing acts become a category error: there's nothing to balance or mix.
Carmel:
The Hermetics explain it thusly:
"The part of the Masculine principle seems to be that of directing a certain inherent energy toward the Feminine principle, and thus starting into activity the creative process. But the Feminine principle is always the one doing the active creative work-and this is so on all planes. And yet, each principle is incapable of operative energy without the assistance of the other. In some forms of life, the two principles are combined in one organism. For that matter, everything in the organic world manifests both genders."
This paragraph articulates more thoroughly what I said previously: There is always a constant interplay between the "two" principles.
As for time, past, present and future may be, as Einstein theorized, merely perceptible due to our consciousness. From what I understand, he thought that all three states, past, present and future, in the absence of perception, existed simultaneously. Unfortunately, I'm not equipped to explain it in any more detail than that, perhaps someone else here knows something more about this?
Diebert:
I don't think you can pull that trick: "compassion is considered". No way you can back that up apart from having a personal opinion on it. The only thing that's considered is a generally stronger emotional action-response with females, which basically adds up to empathy. And even empathy might not be gender specific, some researchers have suggested it to be a "longstanding cultural stereotype". Something women have a fine knack in responding to, as well. Which by the way opens up the possibility empathic behavior might not always be what it looks like, as one cannot easily measure if one actually senses or cares for another. Only outward responses to obvious clues in a monitored environment are measured.
Carmel:
A few weeks ago, I was perusing the art musuem in my city. In the section of Indian art, there was a Hindu statue from the 14th century which depicted two figures, the figures were dancing together. The God of wisdom was represented by a male figure, the goddess of compassion, by a female figure. ...Compassion is universally represented by the feminine ideal. This is not simply my "opinion".
As for empathy, it's not something that can be measured, to the best of my knowledge. I'm not claiming that it is gender specific, but neither is wisdom, or any human trait for that matter. I don't find the tendency of "claiming" the best traits of humanity, then arbitrarily assigning them to only one gender to be productive. It's not a competition.
C:
No, not within a human being. All people are ignorant, to varying degrees. To say otherwise would imply omniscience.[/quote]
Diebert: Well, I did specify "avidya" which means ignorance of the "real nature of things". And wisdom in the context of this forum means essentially knowledge of the way, the nature of existence, which might provide some needed clarity to or freedom from whatever else that would come to mind.
So do you think one should strive to know something about existence but mixed in with some grave misidentification for good measure?[/quote]
Carmel:
It was you who told me that there are no absolutes when discussing "the absolute". Perfect wisdom is an ideal and therefore unattainable. One can only strive toward the ideal...or ideals. Perfect wisdom, includes both the masculine and feminine ideals...
- Kelly Jones
- Posts: 2665
- Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2006 3:51 pm
- Location: Australia
- Contact:
Re: Arbitrary absolutism: the values of the house philosophy
Calling a person "hypocrite", when they are not, is rude. But calling them a hypocrite, when they are, is not rude. So, you yourself know that labelling things as inferior according to a particular standard is not rude, even though it may cause offense.Carmel wrote:Don't be such a hypocrite.
You are constantly calling people rude names, most recently:
"mentally retarded",
For instance, worms are more mentally retarded than humans relative to the highest reaches of consciousness. It's not rude to say this. It's an obvious fact. If a human's mental state is poor, then it is accurate to say so. I know an obese person who goes walking for hours and hours every day to lose weight, but then comes back home and consumes more calories than he used while exercising. He's basically chasing his tail and getting nowhere. That is mentally retarded. It's inefficient. It's thoughtless.
So, you don't find it offensive if women treat their husbands like big pet dogs, but that I point it out....."dogs",
Unnecessary suffering is idiotic. It's idiotic to squash consciousness and reasoning when they are the very things that help one become wise."idiots",
There you go again. How do you know what wisdom is?then try to pass yourself off as some sort of wise person?
You are misinterpreting my meaning, and assuming a character that is not there....thereby revealing your character.
.
Re: Arbitrary absolutism: the values of the house philosophy
Carmel:
There you go again. How do you know what wisdom is?
Carmel:
If you think calling constantly calling people "idiots", "mentally retarded" and "dogs" is wise, then by all means, go for it. All bigots justify their hate in the same way that you do. That doesn't excuse your, or their behaviour, nor does it accomplish anything other than causing me to lose respect for you.
Kelly:then try to pass yourself off as some sort of wise person?
There you go again. How do you know what wisdom is?
Carmel:
If you think calling constantly calling people "idiots", "mentally retarded" and "dogs" is wise, then by all means, go for it. All bigots justify their hate in the same way that you do. That doesn't excuse your, or their behaviour, nor does it accomplish anything other than causing me to lose respect for you.
- Kelly Jones
- Posts: 2665
- Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2006 3:51 pm
- Location: Australia
- Contact:
Re: Arbitrary absolutism: the values of the house philosophy
Wikipedia says that Buddhists regard Guanyin as coming from Avalokiteśvara (अवलोकितेश्वर), which is her male form, while Chinese Daoists regard Guanyin as coming from Xi Wangmu, which was "a ferocious goddess with the teeth of a tiger, who sent Pestilence down upon the world".Carmel wrote:The God of wisdom was represented by a male figure, the goddess of compassion, by a female figure.
It's a real mishmash, in other words. The Taoist component is the primal mother, representing the ultimate yin controlling immortality and the afterlife. But the Buddhist component is the bodhisattva that guards the Dharma. The two aren't really related, but have been jammed together in that special mindless way so characteristic of religious devotees.
.
- Kelly Jones
- Posts: 2665
- Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2006 3:51 pm
- Location: Australia
- Contact:
Re: Arbitrary absolutism: the values of the house philosophy
I'm not justifying anything. I'm explaining my original meanings, which you are only finding offensive because you refuse to explore them.KJ: There you go again. How do you know what wisdom is?
C: If you think calling constantly calling people "idiots", "mentally retarded" and "dogs" is wise, then by all means, go for it. All bigots justify their hate in the same way that you do.
If you actually thought about them, you wouldn't be afraid and defensive. The more one thinks things through, the less emotive one becomes.
.
Re: Arbitrary absolutism: the values of the house philosophy
no fear here, no emotion either, only judgement. It's quite deserved.
At this juncture in time, I'd like to suggest a new motto for "Genius Forums":
How about:
We don't hate women, we just looooooove men!
Has a nice ring to it, don'cha think? :)
At this juncture in time, I'd like to suggest a new motto for "Genius Forums":
How about:
We don't hate women, we just looooooove men!
Has a nice ring to it, don'cha think? :)
- Kelly Jones
- Posts: 2665
- Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2006 3:51 pm
- Location: Australia
- Contact:
Re: Arbitrary absolutism: the values of the house philosophy
But I don't love men. I have said it before, but it seems to bear repeating. Criticism of feminine psychology is a direct attack on men.
Incidentally, doesn't women's penchant for criticising men for so much demonstrate that they deeply believe that men are more responsible than women for all the important things in life?
.
Incidentally, doesn't women's penchant for criticising men for so much demonstrate that they deeply believe that men are more responsible than women for all the important things in life?
.
Re: Arbitrary absolutism: the values of the house philosophy
In Tibetan Buddhism, wisdom is viewed as female & compassion is viewed as male. Symbolically, that is. Wisdom relates to emptiness; compassion (actually compassionate activity, not sitting around feeling sorry for everybody) relates to form.
The images of female & male figures together in TB religious paintings are symbolic representations of nonduality: the inseparability of emptiness & form, wisdom & compassion.
The images of female & male figures together in TB religious paintings are symbolic representations of nonduality: the inseparability of emptiness & form, wisdom & compassion.
Re: Arbitrary absolutism: the values of the house philosophy
hmm interesting. I may have made a wrong assumption with regard to the statue I saw, it stated the god/goddess names, but I just assumed the male figure was "wisdom", the female "compassion"...thanks for the info.