Stopping at Atheism

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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Nick
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Stopping at Atheism

Post by Nick »

Here's a quote from the article Why Atheists Don't Turn to Religion When Faced with Death or Disaster:
The "no atheists in foxholes" trope is a classic example of this. It's not just a lie. It's not even just an ignorant, absurd, colossally stupid lie. It's a bigoted lie. It's a lie that denies our most basic humanity: the fact that atheists love life, that we're deeply attached to the people we love, and that we experience fear and grief in the face of death. It's a lie that tries to depict us, as not just callow and naive, but as something less than human.
It's disappointing to see such weakness on display as people arrive at atheism only to cease thinking and discontinue their philosophical journey, exacerbating their parasitic nature as the cling even harder to their lives and the people around them.
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Anders Schlander
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Re: Stopping at Atheism

Post by Anders Schlander »

to most people humanity = heart, love hate pride shame, all the emotions. Even though all the things people regard as inhuman are caused by the heart. Love and Hate fuel eachother.

He is arguing for atheists humanity by pouring more fuel on the fire. If instead people stopped having so much faith in the emotions, we would advance humanity.
almost all atheists belief in the heart and love, whereas they bring hate through the back-door totally unaware. Atheism is generally so shallow and pathetic that when popular people like Bill Maher ( from a dvd in class called religulous) present atheism i'm fairly sure that people don't become less deluded, they just give up on certainty all together, and stay in samsara, which is the problem.
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Robert
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Re: Stopping at Atheism

Post by Robert »

That's why I'm sympathetic to someone like Sam Harris who openly stated a couple of years ago that atheists should stop using the term altogether. The common definitional value of the word is so steeped in what it's not, it's like perpetually pissing into the wind trying to justify a term that can have hidden layers of meaning yet also be wholly inadequate depending on context and/or who it's directed toward.
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Ryan Rudolph
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Re: Stopping at Atheism

Post by Ryan Rudolph »

atheists are just as misguided as many confident "believers" out there, substituting one ideology for another, while ignoring the subtleties of human nature.

Sometimes atheists are thinkers who approach the gates of sagehood, and consciously choose to keep the gates closed, when they get a slight glimpse of what lingers inside.

Overall, atheists are usually more interesting and engaging in conversation than 'believers', but you can still make them uncomfortable with the right topic, usually on the topic of emotional attachment and how the ego operates.
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Pincho Paxton
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Re: Stopping at Atheism

Post by Pincho Paxton »

The tale starts with a misconception, that an Atheist thinks that death is forever. An atheist doesn't believe in God, but that doesn't mean that Heaven doesn't exist. Heaven is a place, and God is a paranormal being. Atheists believe in places, they ignore the paradox that intelligence created intelligence... and a lot of the nonsense in the Bible. Some atheists believe in reincarnation.. well whatever rids them of the paranormal, and nonsensical. I'm an Atheist, but I think that death is a very interesting experience that I look forward to. I am curious to the point of not being afraid.
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Ryan Rudolph
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Re: Stopping at Atheism

Post by Ryan Rudolph »

I find religious people believe in god to alleviate their fear of death, and use their religious community to feel social and form networks of survival allies.

Whereas atheists tend to derive an egotistical pride from believing in a total ending of self at death. They tend to sport their atheism as a trophy on their mantle, used as a tool of self-esteem and self-worth.

On the other hand, A true philosopher is interested in the truth merely because it is desirable by its very nature because it is the truth. And his quest may have started with the desire for egotistical rewards, but ended with the realization that feeding the ego with emotional rewards is dishonest in its very nature, which causes a sort of ego-extinction process.
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Pincho Paxton
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Re: Stopping at Atheism

Post by Pincho Paxton »

Ryan Rudolph wrote:I find religious people believe in god to alleviate their fear of death, and use their religious community to feel social and form networks of survival allies.

Whereas atheists tend to derive an egotistical pride from believing in a total ending of self at death. They tend to sport their atheism as a trophy on their mantle, used as a tool of self-esteem and self-worth.

On the other hand, A true philosopher is interested in the truth merely because it is desirable by its very nature because it is the truth. And his quest may have started with the desire for egotistical rewards, but ended with the realization that feeding the ego with emotional rewards is dishonest in its very nature, which causes a sort of ego-extinction process.
A true philosopher is either an atheist, or believes in a God.. there is no alternative. You can't have I believe in God on a Tuesday! :)
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Ryan Rudolph
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Re: Stopping at Atheism

Post by Ryan Rudolph »

PP,
A true philosopher is either an atheist, or believes in a God.. there is no alternative. You can't have I believe in God on a Tuesday! :)
you don't get it. I am criticizing the atheist's motivation here. The emotion to which a thought is born is just as significant as the thought itself.

An atheist's belief in no god is many times rooted in egotism, their belief is fueled by emotional rewards that are delusional, while a religious believer's belief is rooted in a similar type of egotism as well.

There isn't that much difference. The atheist appears to be more sane, but if you probe him further, you realize that he is just as irrationally motivated.
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Nick
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Re: Stopping at Atheism

Post by Nick »

Anders Schlander wrote:Atheism is generally so shallow and pathetic that when popular people like Bill Maher ( from a dvd in class called religulous) present atheism i'm fairly sure that people don't become less deluded, they just give up on certainty all together, and stay in samsara, which is the problem.
Yes I've often thought this as well. Belief in god is more a symptom of egotism. It's just one of the many heads of the hydra, albeit a particularly pervasive one.
Robert wrote:That's why I'm sympathetic to someone like Sam Harris who openly stated a couple of years ago that atheists should stop using the term altogether. The common definitional value of the word is so steeped in what it's not, it's like perpetually pissing into the wind trying to justify a term that can have hidden layers of meaning yet also be wholly inadequate depending on context and/or who it's directed toward.
Negatively defining who they are in relation to others is another way of firmly cementing their egos. They aren't ready or willing to become truly independent. It's too bad because most atheists appear to have a lot of skill when it comes to using logic, but are handicapped by their deep attachment to life, love, women, and children. It makes me wonder whether the main thing stopping people form becoming enlightened is an inability to use logic, or how strongly they are attached to something. I think it's the latter because I've talked with many theists who are able to use logic just fine in certain areas, but when it comes to their faith they completely fall apart. The paradox is that they need to use logic to overcome their attachments, but at the same time it's their attachments that hold them back from using logic more effectively.
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Robert
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Re: Stopping at Atheism

Post by Robert »

dejavu wrote:But are we really trying to justify the term to anyone after all? I think you, Sam Harris, and countless other atheists read too much into the basic position we share, which is, however you look at it, a lack of belief in God.
Sure, but what Nick and others are talking about are the logical conclusions of atheism, that practically all atheists never fully explore. It goes beyond the 'superficial lack of belief in God' to examine all beliefs thoroughly, with the aim of shedding those that only bond the ego further. Atheism for almost everyone I've ever come across who claims to be one (and this includes myself not so long ago) really is not all that different from theism, when seen from a clearer perspective.
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Pincho Paxton
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Re: Stopping at Atheism

Post by Pincho Paxton »

Ryan Rudolph wrote:PP,
A true philosopher is either an atheist, or believes in a God.. there is no alternative. You can't have I believe in God on a Tuesday! :)
you don't get it. I am criticizing the atheist's motivation here. The emotion to which a thought is born is just as significant as the thought itself.

An atheist's belief in no god is many times rooted in egotism, their belief is fueled by emotional rewards that are delusional, while a religious believer's belief is rooted in a similar type of egotism as well.

There isn't that much difference. The atheist appears to be more sane, but if you probe him further, you realize that he is just as irrationally motivated.
There's no motivation to be an atheist. We are just not moving towards religion, so we are stationary in respect to motivation. Science is a separate subject, you can be motivated towards science, but that is not away from religion. I want to go to London, doesn't mean I want to get away from Birmingham.
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Ryan Rudolph
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Re: Stopping at Atheism

Post by Ryan Rudolph »

PP,
There's no motivation to be an atheist. We are just not moving towards religion, so we are stationary in respect to motivation. Science is a separate subject, you can be motivated towards science, but that is not away from religion. I want to go to London, doesn't mean I want to get away from Birmingham.
First of all, you have made a few fatal errors in your reasoning. For instance: you assume all atheists share the same motivation or lack of motivations as yourself and other atheists. You brand everyone under the same umbrella when you start saying things like "we" atheists, but there are many different psychological motivations and reasons why individuals choose an atheist ideology over a theist one. Next, you assume that you are not motivated by any sort of underpinning emotional drives to be an atheist. However, perhaps you have never looked or examined your innermost desires closely, and how that has molded your belief system.

For instance: Many atheists adopt the view because they want to be taken seriously by the scientific community, as they want to known as great scientists in the eyes of the world, so they accept the position as a consequence of wanting to be recognized in the scientific community. Still an egotistical drive. It is not the result of unbiased and transparent logic.

For many atheists, the deepest thought process happening within them is something like, "I want this, so I must believe that," Or more specifically "Everyone thinks these guys are idiots for believing in god, but they tend to get respect for not believing, and since I need respect to be successful in my field, I'll believe what they do"

Still fairly shallow thinking....

Most atheists have the outward appearance of wisdom, but when you poke and jab at them sharply with a few arguments, hot air explodes from every orifice and they fly away uncontrollably into the night like a leaking helium balloon....
Last edited by Ryan Rudolph on Sat Feb 06, 2010 2:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Pincho Paxton
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Re: Stopping at Atheism

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Ryan Rudolph wrote:PP,
There's no motivation to be an atheist. We are just not moving towards religion, so we are stationary in respect to motivation. Science is a separate subject, you can be motivated towards science, but that is not away from religion. I want to go to London, doesn't mean I want to get away from Birmingham.
First of all, you have made a few fatal errors in your reasoning. For instance: you assume all atheists share the same motivation or lack of motivations as yourself and other atheists. You brand everyone under the same umbrella when you start saying things like "we" atheists, but there are many different psychological motivations and reasons why individuals choose an atheist ideology over a theist one. Next, you assume that you are not motivated by any sort of underpinning emotional drives to be an atheist. However, perhaps you have never looked or examined your innermost desires closely, and how that has molded your belief system.

For instance: Many atheists adopt the view because they want to be taken seriously by the scientific community, as they want to known as great scientists in the eyes of the world, so they accept the position as a consequence of wanting to be recognized in the scientific community. Still an egotistical drive. It is not the result of unbiased and transparent logic.
Actually, it's the other way around.. that's what you have been doing. I was just correcting you with an example of general behaviour. I didn't say "We atheists." but you actually did label atheism as a single category.
Many atheists adopt the view because they want to be taken seriously by the scientific community, as they want to known as great scientists in the eyes of the world, so they accept the position as a consequence of wanting to be recognized in the scientific community. Still an egotistical drive. It is not the result of unbiased and transparent logic.
And here you have done it again, atheists adopted by the scientific community, instead of people adopted by the scientific community. I said science is a separate category, and you ignored it, then somehow turned it against my own quote which included....
Science is a separate subject, you can be motivated towards science, but that is not away from religion.
In other words you can be a religious scientist. ego is yet another thing which you cannot categorize. You can have both ego, and none-egotistical of both.
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Ryan Rudolph
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Re: Stopping at Atheism

Post by Ryan Rudolph »

PP,
And here you have done it again, atheists adopted by the scientific community, instead of people adopted by the scientific community. I said science is a separate category, and you ignored it.
Science as a separate category from what? atheism? Because the two are intimately linked together. The modern atheist movement has primarily been fueled out of two other related movements: The increasingly obvious public stupidity and folly of organized religion, and the religious surge of scientific worship of everything empirical. Science encourages a sort of atheist mindset if you study biology, psychology and so on. It stares you in the face.

However, my point is that the modern atheist movement rarely produces enlightened thinkers who have taken their spiritual quest all the way. Way the way meaning uncovering all the truths and darkness within humanities consciousness because they block out recognizing their own mental shortcomings and emotional attachments.
In other words you can be a religious scientist.
But scientists who are believers are not being taken as seriously in the scientific community. They still exist, but they are decreasing in number. And it is the atheist community within the scientific community that are causing this transition. However, many times scientists are going atheist for all the wrong reasons, such as the desire to be accepted by the larger group. Same reason as church goers.
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Pincho Paxton
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Re: Stopping at Atheism

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Ryan Rudolph wrote:PP,
And here you have done it again, atheists adopted by the scientific community, instead of people adopted by the scientific community. I said science is a separate category, and you ignored it.
Science as a separate category from what? atheism? Because the two are intimately linked together. The modern atheist movement has primarily been fueled out of two other related movements: The increasingly obvious public stupidity and folly of organized religion, and the religious surge of scientific worship of everything empirical. Science encourages a sort of atheist mindset if you study biology, psychology and so on. It stares you in the face.

However, my point is that the modern atheist movement rarely produces enlightened thinkers who have taken their spiritual quest all the way. Way the way meaning uncovering all the truths and darkness within humanities consciousness because they block out recognizing their own mental shortcomings and emotional attachments.
In other words you can be a religious scientist.
But scientists who are believers are not being taken as seriously in the scientific community. They still exist, but they are decreasing in number. And it is the atheist community within the scientific community that are causing this transition. However, many times scientists are going atheist for all the wrong reasons, such as the desire to be accepted by the larger group. Same reason as church goers.
Well an atheist isn't going to take their spiritual quest all the way to become enlightened, because a spiritual quest is partly a religious quest. You don't know if a spirit exists, therefore cannot be enlightened. The two things don't add up. We are created by nature, and so enlightenment is nature, and nature does not include a real spirit. The closest you can get to a spirit is the electron, the Aether, or the photon... take your pick, and use nature to find your enlightenment. Otherwise explain how a spirit can exist, and avoid adding paranormal entities to nature. Enlightenment should explain this for you, so that you can explain it to me.
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Carl G
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Re: Stopping at Atheism

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Ryan Rudolph wrote:
There's no motivation to be an atheist. We are just not moving towards religion, so we are stationary in respect to motivation. Science is a separate subject, you can be motivated towards science, but that is not away from religion. I want to go to London, doesn't mean I want to get away from Birmingham.
First of all, you have made a few fatal errors in your reasoning. For instance: you assume all atheists share the same motivation or lack of motivations as yourself and other atheists. You brand everyone under the same umbrella when you start saying things like "we" atheists,
Whoa, good catch, yeah, he just pulled a Ryan.
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Ryan Rudolph
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Re: Stopping at Atheism

Post by Ryan Rudolph »

PP,
Well an atheist isn't going to take their spiritual quest all the way to become enlightened, because a spiritual quest is partly a religious quest. You don't know if a spirit exists, therefore cannot be enlightened. The two things don't add up. We are created by nature, and so enlightenment is nature, and nature does not include a real spirit. The closest you can get to a spirit is the electron, the Aether, or the photon... take your pick, and use nature to find your enlightenment. Otherwise explain how a spirit can exist, and avoid adding paranormal entities to nature. Enlightenment should explain this for you, so that you can explain it to me.
When I use the word spirit, I am using in the context of a clear thinking consciousness. I'm not using it in some divine supernatural sense. The word spirit could be abandoned altogether.

And i don't follow what you mean by getting close to spirit through an electron, an aether or photon, these are all just finite appearances to the mind. Appearances that are empty, and lack substance, like the whole of all appearances. However, that awareness gives rise to substance within the mind. That substance is spirit, meaning a connection that gives rise to a rational, clear thinking consciousness.

Carl,
Whoa, good catch, yeah, he just pulled a Ryan.
Hey Carl, do me a favor. Take that anal plug that is almost always up your ass, and stick it in your mouth for awhile, as least until your gay lover comes over.
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Carl G
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Re: Stopping at Atheism

Post by Carl G »

Ryan, you have such a high opinion of yourself, no wonder you are always writing about ego.

Someday perhaps you will see. For now, I'm just trying to help you wipe behind your ears.
Good Citizen Carl
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Pincho Paxton
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Re: Stopping at Atheism

Post by Pincho Paxton »

Ryan Rudolph wrote: And i don't follow what you mean by getting close to spirit through an electron, an aether or photon, these are all just finite appearances to the mind. Appearances that are empty, and lack substance, like the whole of all appearances. However, that awareness gives rise to substance within the mind. That substance is spirit, meaning a connection that gives rise to a rational, clear thinking consciousness.
The Aether isn't an appearance, it's totally invisible, and almost none detectable (I think I'm the only person who knows how to detect it), and it is the substance in the mind. So you mean the Aether. Maybe your clear thinking will help you to realise.
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Pincho Paxton
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Re: Stopping at Atheism

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Carl G wrote: Whoa, good catch, yeah, he just pulled a Ryan.
I didn't pull anything. My wording was changed in Ryan's quote. I said "Scientists" not "We Atheists"
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Carl G
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Re: Stopping at Atheism

Post by Carl G »

Hi, Pincho. I was commenting on Ryan's writing, not yours. My point was to Ryan.
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Nick
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Re: Stopping at Atheism

Post by Nick »

dejavu wrote:you omit to mention what your position is in relation to the question of "God",
And? There are many things I don't do and don't believe in. Do I really need to give you my position on every single one of them? What is the added significance of the "god question" that makes you feel like I need to mention it more so than anything else?
dejavu wrote:
Negatively defining who they are in relation to others is another way of firmly cementing their egos.
I always hear this argument from agnostics. It is only a definition in relation to the question of 'God'. Nothing more.
My aim was not to knock the definition atheism itself, I was talking about how people define their selves in a negative sense, e.g. as atheists.
dejavu wrote:
They aren't ready or willing to become truly independent. It's too bad because most atheists appear to have a lot of skill when it comes to using logic, but are handicapped by their deep attachment to life, love, women, and children.
The logic of atheism in no way regards attachment as a handicap.
Not sure what you mean by "logic of atheism" so I'll just take it to simply mean atheism, but yeah that's what I'm pointing out. Namely that atheists only apply logic to certain things that they feel threatened by and not the things that make them feel happy and secure, i.e. the things they are attached to. So if one values being an independent thinker, (which most atheists don't) attachment must be regarded as a handicap.
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Re: Stopping at Atheism

Post by Gurrb »

going by descartes, god is dead and has never existed.
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Pincho Paxton
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Re: Stopping at Atheism

Post by Pincho Paxton »

Gurrb wrote:going by descartes, god is dead and has never existed.
Well, which one is it?
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Nick
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Re: Stopping at Atheism

Post by Nick »

dejavu wrote:You begin a thread called "Stopping at Atheism" and then ask why the god question needs mentioning more than anything else, as though atheism wasn't defined by it.
No, not "as though atheism wasn't defined by it". More like because I wanted to show you why your question was misguided.
dejavu wrote:You are reacting more than you are thinking.
Oh it's all so clear now.
dejavu wrote:Are you an atheist Nick?
I am an individual who understands the absolute nature of God. You tell me if that makes me an atheist or not.
dejavu wrote:Again, you're trying to imply the position is taken in something other than definition in relation to the question of God.
No I'm not, you're missing the point completely. Which is that it's a sign of dependency when people identify their selves in a negative manner like atheists do. If you asked Einstein who he was he wouldn't have said "not a priest".

I can make you a list of things I don't do or don't believe in, but you still wouldn't know much about me.
dejavu wrote:How are the things you mention, attachment to life for instance, more a handicap to atheists than to anyone else?
It's not.
dejavu wrote:What are you trying to say? Do you have a point?
I don't know man. If you can't figure it out by now then I'm afraid I can't answer these questions for you. Feel free to ignore me though if you find what I say pointless.
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