What is the consciousness of a woman really like?

[Anders Schlander]

i just want to add..it is more tolerable(for me anyways) to have a woman (Kelly)...expose the downside of femininity than having a man do it. Why is that ? I think because i respect women more as they have experienced being a woman and KNOW from EXPERIENCE what they are talking about. A man just wants to overpower and dominate woman...and i loathe men that love repressing women thinking they are superior. It is especially repulsive to see some people here that think they are intelligently superior to others....based only on what is posted here, not knowing the real truth and dynamics in peoples lives. There is more to intelligence than being rational and logical...the feminine and masculine traits need to work in harmony in a persons life. If all women & men had their femininity knocked out of them something would get unbalanced i would think.

Knowing myself ...when i am judged as being overly feminine...my eyes roll in unbeliefe as you have no idea what i do in my daily life...my writing here is only a fraction of what i do . My anger when the feminine is downplayed as inferior stems also from it sounding like a fucking lie and to me is not truth.

Is a flower feminine ?
Is the moon feminine ?
a butterfly feminine?

If this Universe was all masculine it would be ugly as shit.

Long Live Femininity !!!!!

Without it...THERE IS NO MASCULINITY !!!!


_/\_

You are wrong, here, Kunga. The belief that women understand women better than men, and are therefore more qualified to speak of the feminine mind, is undermined by the fact that the feminine mind cannot analyse or understand anything owing to its lack of consciousness. It is impossible for unconsciousness to identify unconsciousness.

It's very similar to psychiatric patients, who cannot accept they're ill, because they have no consciousness of what it means to be healthy - for the reason that they're not conscious enough to judge. Literally, not conscious enough. For instance, I know a fellow who thought he didn't have a psychiatric illness, because it literally turned him into a vegetable. He wasn't aware of anything, let alone being ill. When his brain was electro-shocked to jump out of its unawareness, he suddenly announced he had no illness because he had no memory of an illness.

It's just like this. The patients (most women) are demonstrably feminine-minded and unconscious. They don't know what feminine-mindedness is. They're not qualified to speak of it. This is not about men trying to enforce a system of oppression and mind-control over women; it really has little to do with women. For the most part, the examination of feminine consciousness is about helping those who are struggling to become fully conscious (most men and the extremely rare masculine woman) to deal with their own blockages and attachments to unconsciousness.

For women to get angry about this truth-telling, only serves to point out the flaws of feminine-consciousness. It's not men's fault. But women don't realise how much they're helping men to abandon any love of the feminine, when they behave so selfishly and foolishly.

I said to some people, how might technology and the likes have aided in people being essentially soul-less and spineless

. To which they replied: what do you mean? what is a soul?

Since soul-less people cannot speak about souls, they cannot speak their heart either. To them there is no distinction.

[David Quinn]

Man makes advances upon woman. (Hi, I'm a great guy and I want to have sex with you.)

Woman says no. (Hmm, did you say something? For some reason, I am too blind to see what a great opportunity you are presenting to me. My mind is probably elsewhere.)

Man presses his claims further. ( Hey, look at me. I'm fantastic. I'm an alpha-male. I'm handsome. I'm a stud. I have money and a cheeky personality. Give me a chance and I will rock your socks off, baby.)

Woman says no more firmly. (Get away from me. You're a creep. You disgust me. You smell. Even if you were the last man alive, I still wouldn't have sex with you. Go away and do not speak to me ever again.)

Humiliated, man crosses the line and violently tries to take her. (No subtext needed)

I still don't see how that is revenge.

The last line could also be:

Man starts kissing the woman on the spot, and the woman responds positively. (I've got genes that will enable my son to do the same with other women, thus expanding both our genetic empires.)

In this case, no rape occurs. The woman accepts the man, the man isn't humiliated and there is no need for revenge.

The same as above, except the woman doesn't respond positively.(I'm a woman of character. I prefer a man with more provider-type genes, who will hold the fort instead of going to war all the time.)

Man produces something that is worth a lot of money.(A lot of money secures both our genes considerably.)

Again, if the woman accepts this, there is no rape.

And so on. The difference between rape and "consensual" sex is the difference between uncontrolled and controlled violence.

I'm not sure that it can be viewed in that way. A man can rape a woman with controlled violence, and consensual sex can occur in an atmosphere of uncontrolled violence. Instead, the issue, rather unsurprisingly, turns on the matter of "consent".

It can be a very trickery area since women, as a rule, love being forcibly seized by their lovers. Studies have shown that the dominant sexual fantasy entertained by women is by far the "rape fantasy". Women want men to take the initiative and overwhelm them with powerful lust. If the woman likes the situation, then it becomes a rousing bout of love-making. If she doesn't, it becomes rape.

The tricky bit for men is that women are always giving out mixed signals, so they can never be completely sure about what a woman wants in any given moment. His advances towards her are always a stab in the dark and a gamble, even when he thinks he knows the woman well. He could end up marrying her, or he could end up in jail.

-

[Kelly Jones]

The dialectical counterpoint of rape is philosophy, for a rapist flips out from being sexually rejected so often by women, and in humiliation imagines that he dominates all women and all their rejection, by violently attacking one to force her to sexually accept him. But women flip out on on being intellectually rejected by the philosopher, and in humiliation imagine that they dominate all philosophers and their rejection, by violently attacking them verbally, emotionally, and psychologically, to force him to submit intellectually and take woman back as a whipped dog must take back its master.

I mean, women who are angry at the idea that it is important to reject feminine psychology, and who present no arguments that are free of their anger, are obviously engaging in this kind of rape, aren't they?

[Kunga]

women who are angry at the idea that it is important to reject feminine psychology, and who present no arguments that are free of their anger, are obviously engaging in this kind of rape, aren't they?

But why does a woman have to be raped psychologically of her feminine mind in order for her to qualify as a good candidate for liberation ?

Would you go as far as Ryonen to be accepted ?

I thought Bodhicitta was the necessary requirement on the path to liberation.
Is it impossible for a feminine mind to possess Bodhicitta ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhicitta

[Kelly Jones]

Kunga, feminine psychology is stuff like passivity, dearth of initiative, lack of curiosity, lack of self-awareness, a mindless content with the way things are, holding beliefs that are never deeply questioned or at all, and the like. So do you see that outgrowing feminine psychology is absolutely essential for any thinking, and understanding, to occur?

[Kunga]

Yes...except i don't understand why they call it feminine...ignorance would be a better word/concept.

feminine psychology is stuff like passivity, dearth of initiative, lack of curiosity, lack of self-awareness, a mindless content with the way things are, holding beliefs that are never deeply questioned or at all, and the like. So do you see that outgrowing feminine psychology is absolutely essential for any thinking, and understanding, to occur?

[Kelly Jones]

Well, there's a clue in that, Kunga. Feminine consciousness is ignorance of ignorance, demonstrated by how women have utterly no idea that they are ignorant. They don't realise how mediocre and mindless they are. They are deeply naive as to the true state of affairs. They have to be told, and even then, they will refuse to consider the possibility. Women have a blockage to thinking, full stop.

By contrast, men have some awareness, generally, of gaps in their knowledge or understanding. That they have some awareness that they are mediocre and ignorant means they are not truly ignorant. Conscious that there is room for improvement, a man is not ignorant, but has already found the path to understanding. So for masculine consciousness we can truly speak of consciousness (relative to women). And if men fight against being told of their poor thinking, it is not because they disagree, but because they believe that anyone who challenges mediocrity must live by their word. For women, it's resentment and envy, but for men it's a matter of conscience. It's a whole different kettle of fish.

This is why most men are more qualified to speak of feminine consciousness than women.

[Jeannie]

Ah Kelly....what you don't know about me is the fact I consider many many things that humans do as being absurd.

Bull fighting came up recently. People worship the matador...why? Fucked if I know...it is nothing more than men behaving like animals.

Like I said, women complaining that their feet hurt after wearing high heels all day is non-sensical. Shops that can sell handbags for ludicrous sums of money is also beyond my comprehension. Men involve themselves in such frivolous activities too.

The rot of humans to me, is not all these things. The rot is people acting out their emotions in violent ways. David says rape is revenge. Revenge is an emotion. Plenty of men out there who are lead by their emotions too. I wonder if a woman attacked a guy for sex, or whatever, she would also be subject to a case worthwhile of "study" or would she be bagged out as another pathetic eg of "woman".

The different roles I spoke of, was meaning that women are of course, not capable of doing heavy physical labour, for instance. This is common sense. Does this make them less than men? Men cannot have babies. Some think giving birth is a miracle, others think it is no biggy.

Dan.............I am not totally ignorant of your philosophy...I also get your "woman" vs "women" concepts. Just because I don't agree with a lot of it, does not mean I don't get where you are at. I cannot see why Oprah deserves to die anymore than Tom Cruise.

The constant obsession to bag "woman" is pretty hilarious, since QRS have no interest in doing things for which they praise men. dejavu...don't worry, I am well aware that some on here do not speak for QRS.

[Jeannie]

pmsl Kelly

In Indonesia, as one example, the men cut boys' chests and backs 100's of times to make them look like the totem alligator.

Other tribes commit horrendous acts to get a "good" crop.

Pure genius that :D

[Jeannie]

David

A suit and tie are symbols of slavery? Slavery is not a "choice" from where I sit. It is about the strong overpowering the weak.

Men must be weaker than you think if this is your take on it. LOL

But of course, make up etc is not a symbol of slavery for women. It is a sneaky conspiracy to control men. Many women at my work do not even wear makeup.

[Carmel]

David:
It can be a very trickery area since women, as a rule, love being forcibly seized by their lovers. Studies have shown that the dominant sexual fantasy entertained by women is by far the "rape fantasy".

Carmel:
To which studies are you referring? I'm not saying you're wrong, but it was difficult to find any conclusive information on this subject.

In 1973, Nancy Friday wrote a book about women's fantasies entitled "The Secret Garden". The environment for women then was far more sexually repressive than it is currently. Most women were socially indoctrinated to feel guilty about their sexual desires, hence the "rape" or more likely, seduction fantasy was prevalent. This fantasy was a way to alleviate their guilt for desiring sex.

In 1991, she wrote another book entitled "Women on Top; How Real Life Has Changed Women's Sexual Fantasies" which relected an alternate paradigm for women's sexuality. The title is self explanatory.

Preferences among women, and men, of course, are highly individual.
--
Today's cultural model for sexuality seems increasingly reminiscent of the sexual promiscuity in Huxley's "Brave New World" where sex is less personal, it's more like a transaction. Any partner will do. It's not quite that extreme, but something along those lines...

David:
Women want men to take the initiative and overwhelm them with powerful lust. If the woman likes the situation, then it becomes a rousing bout of love-making.

Carmel:
Yeah, sure women like a man who can 'throw down' a little, you know, grrrrr! lol!, but if she likes it, it's definitely not rape nor is it degrading.

David:
The tricky bit for men is that women are always giving out mixed signals, so they can never be completely sure about what a woman wants in any given moment. His advances towards her are always a stab in the dark and a gamble, even when he thinks he knows the woman well.

Carmel:
There's some truth in that, but if a man wants to know what a woman wants he should just ask her, no?

[Kelly Jones]

Jeannie, you say you're more interested in important matters like politics, and the like.

But then, what use is political interest if it has no influence beyond oneself? Therefore, you must have thought about the cause and effect of the ideas / memes that are spread around society. You must be interested in what sorts of values are the cause of certain kinds of behaviours.

For instance, what sorts of values have been running about so wildly - like global viruses - to make shopping centres house multiple stores selling the same thing: "multiple supplies of makeup", fashions worn for a few weeks or months then discarded, or fashionable homeware or sentimental giftware?

Why is it that our economies don't run on environmentally sustainable or intelligence-promoting values?

It may seem that an investigation of the stuff most sold to the average consumer, is "superficial crap" which one can certainly ignore. But it's far from superficial if one has a deep interest in underlying themes, and values, like the importance of truthfulness, self-awareness, honesty, and the like. I don't think there's anything superficial about such values. Why you'd regard it as complaining seems more like superficiality on your part, quite honestly.

Ah Kelly....what you don't know about me is the fact I consider many many things that humans do as being absurd.

Bull fighting came up recently. People worship the matador...why? Fucked if I know...it is nothing more than men behaving like animals.

Like I said, women complaining that their feet hurt after wearing high heels all day is non-sensical. Shops that can sell handbags for ludicrous sums of money is also beyond my comprehension. Men involve themselves in such frivolous activities too.

The rot of humans to me, is not all these things. The rot is people acting out their emotions in violent ways. David says rape is revenge. Revenge is an emotion. Plenty of men out there who are lead by their emotions too. I wonder if a woman attacked a guy for sex, or whatever, she would also be subject to a case worthwhile of "study" or would she be bagged out as another pathetic eg of "woman".

The different roles I spoke of, was meaning that women are of course, not capable of doing heavy physical labour, for instance. This is common sense. Does this make them less than men? Men cannot have babies. Some think giving birth is a miracle, others think it is no biggy.

By "absurd", it appears you mean "irrational", "senseless", "mindless", and "nonsensical". Okay with that? So you see absurdity in the behaviour of men and women. Now, would you mind if I just concentrate on the synonym, "irrational"? It brings out the precise argument you are making somewhat more clearly.

So, you appear to be saying that it is not rational to regard women as more absurd (read: irrational) than men. But then you seem to be going a bit further, and saying that extreme absurdity/irrationality is: human rottenness. Then you indicate that this extremity is "acting out their emotions in violent ways", and argue that men are again indistinguishable from women in this regard.

I accept that you see irrationality in both sexes, and extreme irrationality as well. But I'd like to know what your standard is, in practical terms. That is, can you provide examples of behaviour that is rational, and extremely rational? Also, if you form a total of all those individuals who are responsible for the rational or extremely rational behaviour, then what is the gender split by percentage, in terms of the sex of the individuals who perform those examples most frequently and easily (e.g. generally rational: ---% female, ---% male; most frequently and effortlessly rational: ---% female, ---% male) ? This is just your general estimate, of course, based on your own observations.

I'd be interested in hearing your answers to both questions, but you may want to use the examples within your analysis. Thanks.

.

[Kelly Jones]

pmsl Kelly

In Indonesia, as one example, the men cut boys' chests and backs 100's of times to make them look like the totem alligator.

Other tribes commit horrendous acts to get a "good" crop.

Pure genius that :D

No one on this forum is saying that biological males are inherently geniuses, just that they have higher potential for genius than biological females.

What do initiation rites have to do with your idea of absurdity? Are you arguing that it is absolutely without any reason whatsoever, or that it is acting out emotions violently?

If you think about it, hunting is almost always gory, rough, dangerous, dirty, and can be extremely strenuous for tribal people. Getting psychologically prepared for that sort of experience makes sense, even to the point of becoming the creature you are hunting. It's probably about learning to think like that creature, getting to know its habitats, and its drives. But imagine what would happen if the learning of all that information was not contained. You'd have it spilling over into the vulnerable sphere of domesticity, upsetting women and children. So secret men's rituals, like initiation tests, like the macabre cuttings you mention, or tattoes, or having to carry a roasting kangaroo on your back, are deliberately privileged to make a man proud of containing it all within a part of his brain. It's a way of compartmentalising the stress of the hunt, and containing the wild altered states of consciousness, thus keeping it away from the vulnerable sphere of domesticity. It's not wholly rational, but it's not hard to see commonsense there.


.

[Kelly Jones]

You didn't really answer Kungas question Kelly. Why bring to bear the misleading artifice of a sexualized divide in mind, when one can always address the differing degrees of consciousness?

I did answer her question, but you didn't understand it. The differing degrees of consciousness are best identified by recognising a sex differentiation. That differentiation is very real, so it is neither artificial nor misleading to "bring it to bear".

[jupiviv]

A man can rape a woman with controlled violence, and consensual sex can occur in an atmosphere of uncontrolled violence.

By violence, I mean the degree to which the man "destroys" the woman. In normal sex, this "destruction" is controlled. In rape, it's not, as he doesn't even pay attention her consent(although there is no consent either way).

Instead, the issue, rather unsurprisingly, turns on the matter of "consent".

As I said, there is nothing called consent in human sex. It's logically impossible. Of course, I've never had sex, so I'm talking from a purely observational standpoint. I may be wrong, and it's possible that people become enlightened while having sex, but all evidence points to the contrary.

[Dan Rowden]

Dan.............I am not totally ignorant of your philosophy...I also get your "woman" vs "women" concepts. Just because I don't agree with a lot of it, does not mean I don't get where you are at. I cannot see why Oprah deserves to die anymore than Tom Cruise.

You are almost totally ignorant, actually.

The constant obsession to bag "woman" is pretty hilarious, since QRS have no interest in doing things for which they praise men.

See. This is essensially nonsensical.

[Dan Rowden]

David

A suit and tie are symbols of slavery? Slavery is not a "choice" from where I sit. It is about the strong overpowering the weak.

It's about people making a choice from where I sit. Maybe an existential choice in some cases, but still a choice. As you know, I've spent many an hour in working class pubs - not too many of those guys look like slaves without a choice to me.

Men must be weaker than you think if this is your take on it. LOL

Everytime you type "lol" you look foolish. Just so you know.

But of course, make up etc is not a symbol of slavery for women. It is a sneaky conspiracy to control men. Many women at my work do not even wear makeup.

I'm sure they don't, which only goes to show that there are things to be said for working in the public service. And makeup is a form of voluntary slavery.

[Kelly Jones]

Kelly to Kunga: feminine psychology is stuff like passivity, dearth of initiative, lack of curiosity, lack of self-awareness, a mindless content with the way things are, holding beliefs that are never deeply questioned or at all, and the like. So do you see that outgrowing feminine psychology is absolutely essential for any thinking, and understanding, to occur?

Kunga: Yes...except i don't understand why they call it feminine...ignorance would be a better word/concept.

Kelly: Well, there's a clue in that, Kunga. Feminine consciousness is ignorance of ignorance, demonstrated by how women have utterly no idea that they are ignorant. They don't realise how mediocre and mindless they are. They are deeply naive as to the true state of affairs. They have to be told, and even then, they will refuse to consider the possibility. Women have a blockage to thinking, full stop.

By contrast, men have some awareness, generally, of gaps in their knowledge or understanding. That they have some awareness that they are mediocre and ignorant means they are not truly ignorant. Conscious that there is room for improvement, a man is not ignorant, but has already found the path to understanding. So for masculine consciousness we can truly speak of consciousness (relative to women). And if men fight against being told of their poor thinking, it is not because they disagree, but because they believe that anyone who challenges mediocrity must live by their word. For women, it's resentment and envy, but for men it's a matter of conscience. It's a whole different kettle of fish.

This is why most men are more qualified to speak of feminine consciousness than women.

dejavu: Why bring to bear the misleading artifice of a sexualized divide in mind, when one can always address the differing degrees of consciousness?

Kelly: The differing degrees of consciousness are best identified by recognising a sex differentiation.

dejavu: How have the 'degrees' of consciousness been identified by categorizing them as either masculine or feminine? What, are there only two?

No, there aren't only two. There are as many degrees as one would like, because like everything else, consciousness is a part of the Infinite, and therefore there are no inherent divisions. The differentiation between masculine and feminine psychology is real, because there is an obvious difference, but that doesn't mean that there are infinite degrees along that scale and beyond.

One can see that difference (to have to explain it makes me wonder why I am) through being highly conscious oneself, and noticing how other people compare. For instance, in their behaviour, and how they express themselves. A highly conscious individual will not be able to stop themselves from seeing that men generally evince much greater awareness, and a psychology to suit, than women.

Kelly: That differentiation is very real, so it is neither artificial nor misleading to "bring it to bear".

dejavu: No doubt it is real in your mind, however the very fact that you "bring it to bear" leaves it in question, and as such, is ultimately misleading. You indulge it as one indulges a habit. A hobby horse which, were you to dismount it, would leave you feeling lost.

You should get off! We're all here! As real as your logical progression! Take the plunge! As final consolation you can pride yourself that such a thing can be considered manly :D

You've said absolutely nothing in your reply. No argument at all.

Try to stop giving into your sabotaging impulses, as they're putting you into major philsophical debt. You might not realise, but your philosophical self is the equivalent of a piss-odourous, louse-infested, flaky-skinned tramp, bleary-eyed and sore-cankered, addicted to booze, completely wretched and without a cent in the bank - yet giggling to himself about how much fun he's having.

[Kunga]

Well, there's a clue in that, Kunga. Feminine consciousness is ignorance of ignorance, demonstrated by how women have utterly no idea that they are ignorant. They don't realise how mediocre and mindless they are. They are deeply naive as to the true state of affairs. They have to be told, and even then, they will refuse to consider the possibility. Women have a blockage to thinking, full stop.

Only a ignorant person would be ignorant of their ignorance. It dosn't matter if they are male or female. You speak of woman as if she has not evolved. The feminine /masculine are concepts ...in Ultimate reality there are no concepts.

[Kunga]

I've never had sex.

That's what i thought.

[Anders Schlander]

Well, there's a clue in that, Kunga. Feminine consciousness is ignorance of ignorance, demonstrated by how women have utterly no idea that they are ignorant. They don't realise how mediocre and mindless they are. They are deeply naive as to the true state of affairs. They have to be told, and even then, they will refuse to consider the possibility. Women have a blockage to thinking, full stop.

Only a ignorant person would be ignorant of their ignorance. It dosn't matter if they are male or female. You speak of woman as if she has not evolved. The feminine /masculine are concepts ...in Ultimate reality there are no concepts.

ultimate reality contains concepts, don't they? aren't we using some right now!

[Kunga]

ultimate reality contains concepts, don't they? aren't we using some right now!

yes...i thought of that after i submitted my post. sometimes i think i know what i'm talking about.

But this is what i was refering to :


Wisdom in Buddhism can refer to two types of insight: conventional wisdom and ultimate wisdom:

Conventional wisdom relates to understanding the conventional world, or the world as we know it. Traditionally it refers to understanding the way in which karma functions; to understand which actions bring us happiness and which bring us suffering. Conventional wisdom covers all understanding of the world as it functions, including science, with the exception of ultimate wisdom.

Ultimate wisdom (jñana in Sanskrit) refers to a direct realisation which is non-dualistic, and contradicts the way in which we ordinarily perceive the world. The experience of ultimate truth or emptiness is beyond duality.
It is important to remember that emptiness here does not refer to nothingness or some kind of nihilistic view. Emptiness refers to the fact that ultimately, our day-to-day experience of reality is wrong, and is 'empty' of many qualities that we normally assign to it.
Describing this non-dual experience in words is not really possible, as language is based on duality and contrasts. Trying to explain this experience - which contradicts our normal perception - is a bit like explaining colors to someone who is born blind; difficult to say the least.

[Kelly Jones]

Ah, what's the point? It's like talking to a brick wall.

[Jeannie]

Thanks for that, Dan. Every time you get pissed or sing kareoke, I think you are foolish too.

Forget what I said last night. If you were not my bro, I would have NOTHING to do with you.

[Anders Schlander]

Ah, what's the point? It's like talking to a brick wall.

if you're referring to me, well, Kunga's mind seems awfully cluttered. I don't think i can help, so really, it is up to Kunga. If i reply i will only make things worse, i won't be of any help anyways.