Love

[IJesusChrist]

As far as love is concerned, I don't know if I believe in love. I mean the love in forever after, true love. I can see trust, I can see lust, I can see wanting someone, but loveing forever? How do you know when you are truly in love? At what point does your enjoyment with someone else become love? Just when you let it? Just when it happens? Is it just some random thing that occurs?

I've never met a girl that I could say, Gosh I hope I'm with you for the rest of my life, and sadly I don't think I ever will. I don't know if this is because I am emotionally drained in that area, the reasons stated above, or (yes this will sound like an ego trip) but that I'm too intelligent. I know a man who is in college with me who is argueably the smartest person I've ever met, and I once talked to him about girlfriends & such and his response was "I can never trick myself into loving someone"

I am aware he has had a troubled childhood, but was this true for him? Was he never going to see love, ever?


I find love a very... hushy subject when someone goes to talk against it, I find it sometimes and with some people taboo to say that love isn't real - that only lust and trust exist within us.

I suppose I love my parents, but isn't that just the connection from years and years of trust, laughter, enlightenment and learning? Is love just a combination of other emotions?

Do you believe in love?

[Blair]

Ever heard the saying 'flogging a dead horse'?

Yes you have a problem but it won't be solved on this forum.

[IJesusChrist]

Ever heard the saying 'flogging a dead horse'?

Yes you have a problem but it won't be solved on this forum.

I had a feeling this was going to be stated -

I'll readress this post.

[Cory Duchesne]

To love someone a lot, in a romantic context, just means that you really enjoy being around a person who you also happen to find sexual attractive. Generally, the more we love (enjoy) a person, the more impoverished we feel when we are alone. It's kind of like people who have problems with binge eating. Part of the reason they love eating so much is because of how empty they feel when they are not eating. Couples who feel euphoria with each other and announce they have found "true love" are people who are deeply insecure and inwardly impoverished. Their tendency toward "forever together" type sentiments suggests a strong fear of being alone combined with an acute sense that they are somehow seriously flawed and not very lovable. They don't have the sense that there are a wide variety of relationships available to them, they suspect that the love they have managed to establish happened through a lot of luck, and that if they were to lose their current mate, they might not get another chance with a new one. So they tend to "hold on for dear life".

[Kunga]

To love someone a lot, in a romantic context, just means that you really enjoy being around a person who you also happen to find sexual attractive. Generally, the more we love (enjoy) a person, the more impoverished we feel when we are alone. It's kind of like people who have problems with binge eating. Part of the reason they love eating so much is because of how empty they feel when they are not eating. Couples who feel euphoria with each other and announce they have found "true love" are people who are deeply insecure and inwardly impoverished. Their tendency toward "forever together" type sentiments suggests a strong fear of being alone combined with an acute sense that they are somehow seriously flawed and not very lovable. They don't have the sense that there are a wide variety of relationships available to them, they suspect that the love they have managed to establish happened through a lot of luck, and that if they were to lose their current mate, they might not get another chance with a new one. So they tend to "hold on for dear life".

This might be your experience with love Cory...but not mine...i'm sure we all have had our own experiences and conclusions about love.

The first time i fell in love i was not expecting it nor looking for it or anyone.
it happened spontaneously.
i was not into sex or sexually attracted to the person...he touched my hand...and it happened instantly...like a chemical reaction to his touch/skin.
yes we felt we'd always love each other...forever...and always be together...i was not insecure and inwardly impovershed...i was extremely well adjusted and happy and loved life...had tons of friends, and many male admirers' .
i never tried to "hold on" to him. i always wanted this relationship to be natural & not contrived...knowing how some women out of lack of security try to "trap" men...i wanted his love to be free and real....

i had premonitions of loosing him early in the relationship tho....in my dreams...all of it came true.....years before it happened.
i had many dreams of the past with this person after the relationship was over....these dreams were from another lifetime.....

all in all i think the people that come into your life are from other lifetimes...we keep bumping into the same people for various reasons/karma...
"love" might be a very strong karmic connection....

[IJesusChrist]

Aha! Kunga, I'm assuming you're a girl so I'll just go with that, but no offense if you're not.

It seems that the first two actual posts are almost completely opposite, and are of the different sex! Interesting.

My own personal theory of "Love" and 'forever after' is when two people meet at a time in their life where they just simply don't care if they are hurt, i.e. they just "give in" to emotion, and feeling, rather than second guessing everything. I think love is just when two people are both on this level, and quite honestly I'm sure that we as people can read each other when we are on that level.

I've felt close to that a few times, but really I believe it has to happen within the first few meetings (first impressions). That is why "love" is so common when drunk - you just give up, you don't care - but when you're sober, if those cares come back, eh... You put your pants on quietly and get the heck outta there.

Just my opinion.

[Carmel]

Erich Fromm had some interesting insights on the delusional nature of romantic love or "erotic love" as he termed it.

E Fromm
"The Art of loving"

"One can often find two people "in love" with each other who feel no love for anybody else; Their love is, in fact, an egoism a deux; they are two people who identify themselves with each other, and who solve the problem of separateness by enlarging the single individual into two. They have the experience of overcoming aloneness, yet, since they are separated from the rest of mankind, they remain separated from each other and alienated from themselves; their experience of union is an illusion..."

His whole chapter on "erotic love" is very insightful; I may post some more of his quotes later.

[IJesusChrist]

So I wonder if E Fromm had experienced this himself, or were these his assumptions upon others' relationships? I am curious what experiences make him draw these conclusions, but I know two people that would perfectly fit his description.

[Kunga]

Yes IJesusChrist...i haven't shaved for a while...but underneath that handsome mustache is a woMAN : )

when two people meet at a time in their life where they just simply don't care if they are hurt, i.e. they just "give in" to emotion, and feeling, rather than second guessing everything. I think love is just when two people are both on this level, and quite honestly I'm sure that we as people can read each other when we are on that level.

Like when you are very young & inexperienced with life..and your behavior is more natural ? As opposed to when you get hurt so many times you can't trust anyone or yourself anymore ? (and you're more conditioned)

When i was "in love" the first time i was 20 years old. Not sexually mature or even interested in a sexual relationship. i didn't even think about love .

my whole body vibrated for hours after being with him....very strange...never happened with anyone like that.
wherever we went people would comment how they pick up on our "love"...it affected others !!!!!

i think when you drink your emotions are raw and to the surface...hard to hide our true feelings then.
Your rational conditioning comes back as you sober up....hangover and all...

i can't imagine falling "in love" anymore like when i was young. Love to me now is rational/stable/realistic/logical/safe.


It isn't necessary for men to "be in love" i don't think.

[IJesusChrist]

I was in love in 6th grade.

Yup, I don't think I will ever feel that again -

but of course if I changed that sentence to "I could feel love again" I'm sure it would happen.

Blah psychology.

Interesting though that you felt that @ 20, that kind of... disregards my thoughts. Perhaps lust without you knowing it?

But I'll take your word for it that it was love.

happy fase.

[Animus]

Erich Fromm had some interesting insights on the delusional nature of romantic love or "erotic love" as he termed it.

E Fromm
"The Art of loving"

"One can often find two people "in love" with each other who feel no love for anybody else; Their love is, in fact, an egoism a deux; they are two people who identify themselves with each other, and who solve the problem of separateness by enlarging the single individual into two. They have the experience of overcoming aloneness, yet, since they are separated from the rest of mankind, they remain separated from each other and alienated from themselves; their experience of union is an illusion..."

His whole chapter on "erotic love" is very insightful; I may post some more of his quotes later.

A very elegant man that Mr. Fromm

[Ryan Rudolph]

Kunga,

i had premonitions of loosing him early in the relationship tho....in my dreams...all of it came true.....years before it happened.
i had many dreams of the past with this person after the relationship was over....these dreams were from another lifetime.....

all in all i think the people that come into your life are from other lifetimes...we keep bumping into the same people for various reasons/karma...
"love" might be a very strong karmic connection....

that's a whole lot of bullshit in a few paragraphs. Generally speaking, romantic love is a chemical imbalance in the brain, and believing to love someone forever is just plain foolish because we live for such a short finite period of time. The thoughts of romantic love are delusional, and that is why they are so powerful. They make the ego feel so charged with irrational emotions.

when couples say things like that, like "I will love you, and only you forever, it appeals to the ego's desire for lasting security, which you can only find in the absolute truth, romanticism can and will never give anyone that. It is a tragic dishonest joke in that regard.

obsessive romantic love is the the rejection of god basically. similar to taking drugs or eating big macs every day, no difference.

[HUNTEDvsINVIS]

yeah, i guess love is real. above all, love is care. love also means respect. I can often see false loves, and it is rather sad to see, but really it is none of my business. People will tell me "bah! love is sex, you dont know that?" And really i feel sorry for them. Because i watch them become more impoverished as the years go by, ultimately asking questions about their loved ones that i dare not answer. I just watch all of this happen, and it bores me. Indeed, i felt raw desire once, but i realized very quickly that it seemed to feel suffocating somehow. It is not for me. It takes too much from me. It makes me feel like im lost in a storm at sea. of course people never seem to realize this about me. takes them a while.

[Cahoot]

False love. Interesting. It’s tempting to dive into semantics with such a term to straighten out the incongruity, but I understand what you’re saying.

Love is inside each of us. Some people, some experiences, take us to that place of love inside.

When we find someone who consistently takes us to that place, and takes us there more often than they do not, then we say we are in love with that person.

When we find a place, or a song, or art, or elegant mathematical proof, or memory, or any stimulus that takes us to that place of love inside, then we say we are in love with that.

When our presence, or the memory of our presence, takes another to that place in themself that is love, then they say they are in love with us.

Two people being in love together is a simultaneous act of each person going to that place of love that is inside, and when the presence of each other takes each to that place inside, then two say that they are in love with each other.

Is it possible to stay at that place of love inside, in perpetuity?

I say yes.

When in that place of love inside, all manner of things can be associated as the cause that has taken us to that place. Grasping, trying to hold onto that which we have interpreted as having taken us there, is a necessary part of learning about illusion, for when the grasping doesn’t work out because change does its thing, we are disillusioned.

However, with awareness and intelligence, the experience of disillusionment reveals the nature of illusion, and when fearless awareness turns towards the nature of illusion then illusion is naturally dispelled. With no more illusion there is no more disillusion, which leaves that place of love inside unobscured.

And, it’s possible to then know that where we are, when at that place of love inside, is actually abiding in the awareness of being, right now, and the phenomena that was once perceived as the cause, or the vehicle that took us to that place of love inside, is in fact the compliment of love.

Is it possible for two people to simultaneously remain in that place of love that is inside, and remain together?

Yes, if they can each weather the storms churned up by illusion’s death throes.

[IJesusChrist]

obsessive romantic love is the the rejection of god basically. similar to taking drugs or eating big macs every day, no difference.

What the f_ck?

[Kunga]

obsessive romantic love is the the rejection of god basically. similar to taking drugs or eating big macs every day, no difference.

What the f_ck?[/quote


well, i remember distinctly saying to myself i love him MORE THAN GOD (i belived in God back then)

Don't worry Ryan...i'm not the romantic i used to be...it is draining...and i hate rollercoasters !
i love food now...lol

[IJesusChrist]

Kunga I think that would qualify as psychotic, not romantic.

[David Quinn]

Erich Fromm had some interesting insights on the delusional nature of romantic love or "erotic love" as he termed it.

E Fromm
"The Art of loving"

"One can often find two people "in love" with each other who feel no love for anybody else; Their love is, in fact, an egoism a deux; they are two people who identify themselves with each other, and who solve the problem of separateness by enlarging the single individual into two. They have the experience of overcoming aloneness, yet, since they are separated from the rest of mankind, they remain separated from each other and alienated from themselves; their experience of union is an illusion..."

The same applies to nationalists, who like to enlargen themselves into a group, thereby separating themselves from other groups.

Love: a smaller form of nationalism.

It's always interesting to watch how much a bloke changes when he "falls in love". It's as though an alien virus suddenly infects him. One minute he is free-spirited, explorative, humorous and relatively rational, and then, suddenly, quite out of the blue, he morphs into a tedious, domesticated, conventional creature doing his level best pretending to be an "adult". That's if you ever see him again, of course.

Love: a virus that turns men into zombies.

(Interestingly, women don't seem to change much, apart from acquiring an extra glow.)

Love, although real, is essentially narcissistic in nature, as evidenced by many of the comments in this thread - e.g. seeing the other as one's self; wanting to remain with the person who makes you happy inside, etc. And thus it is no surprise when we see that most of the violence in the world occurs in the home. A case of narcissistic people spitting the dummy when they're not getting what they want from their "partner".

Love: the fullness of hate not yet manifest.

And let's face it, the primary function of love is simply to get us to breed. Our only purpose in life, as far as evolution is concerned, is to survive until adulthood, enter into a pair-bond situation and spit brats out, thereby keeping the species going. We are mere robots to that end, and "falling in love" is one of the many programs inserted into us to push us in that direction.

Love: an algorithm designed to undermine intelligence for the greater good of the species.

I was in love in 6th grade.

Yup, I don't think I will ever feel that again -

but of course if I changed that sentence to "I could feel love again" I'm sure it would happen.

I don't think this will make much of a difference. The virus of love is far too powerful for a mere belief to withstand.

Everyone is vulnerable to the onset of love, unless they take steps to thoroughly clear away everything within their psychology that could catch hold of it. It's a case of eliminating all possible footholds within the mind, such that the virus no longer has any place to take root and spread.

But of course, most people don't care enough about their lives to even bother giving this sort of thing their attention.

Love: the product of indifference.

-

[jupiviv]

Actually, most people(and especially women) don't even understand what love is, and exhibit the quality of loving very rarely in their lives. What they call love is mostly an animal phenomena. A great amount of love is necessary for enlightenment, but enlightenment itself is without any love.

[mensa-maniac]

Erich Fromm had some interesting insights on the delusional nature of romantic love or "erotic love" as he termed it.

E Fromm
"The Art of loving"

"One can often find two people "in love" with each other who feel no love for anybody else; Their love is, in fact, an egoism a deux; they are two people who identify themselves with each other, and who solve the problem of separateness by enlarging the single individual into two. They have the experience of overcoming aloneness, yet, since they are separated from the rest of mankind, they remain separated from each other and alienated from themselves; their experience of union is an illusion..."

The same applies to nationalists, who like to enlargen themselves into a group, thereby separating themselves from other groups.

Love: a smaller form of nationalism.

It's always interesting to watch how much a bloke changes when he "falls in love". It's as though an alien virus suddenly infects him. One minute he is free-spirited, explorative, humorous and relatively rational, and then, suddenly, quite out of the blue, he morphs into a tedious, domesticated, conventional creature doing his level best pretending to be an "adult". That's if you ever see him again, of course.

Love: a virus that turns men into zombies.

(Interestingly, women don't seem to change much, apart from acquiring an extra glow.)

Love, although real, is essentially narcissistic in nature, as evidenced by many of the comments in this thread - e.g. seeing the other as one's self; wanting to remain with the person who makes you happy inside, etc. And thus it is no surprise when we see that most of the violence in the world occurs in the home. A case of narcissistic people spitting the dummy when they're not getting what they want from their "partner".

Love: the fullness of hate not yet manifest.

And let's face it, the primary function of love is simply to get us to breed. Our only purpose in life, as far as evolution is concerned, is to survive until adulthood, enter into a pair-bond situation and spit brats out, thereby keeping the species going. We are mere robots to that end, and "falling in love" is one of the many programs inserted into us to push us in that direction.

Love: an algorithm designed to undermine intelligence for the greater good of the species.

I was in love in 6th grade.

Yup, I don't think I will ever feel that again -

but of course if I changed that sentence to "I could feel love again" I'm sure it would happen.

I don't think this will make much of a difference. The virus of love is far too powerful for a mere belief to withstand.

Everyone is vulnerable to the onset of love, unless they take steps to thoroughly clear away everything within their psychology that could catch hold of it. It's a case of eliminating all possible footholds within the mind, such that the virus no longer has any place to take root and spread.

But of course, most people don't care enough about their lives to even bother giving this sort of thing their attention.

Love: the product of indifference.

-

Mensa says: Love is a journey into discovering yourself through your partner. It is freedom from one's lower self to an upgrade of one's higher self.

[Cahoot]

Understanding of love comes from observing love while in love. Given the emotional aspects of love, passion, and associated mental states, this can certainly be a challenge for equanimity and detachment while in the moment. And later, subsequent analysis of what was requires a ruthless honesty to cut through the rationalizations of self-deception.

Observing logically:

- Love can be a condition that contributes to the manifestation of a zombie.

- Drugs, alcohol, food, anger, aversion, fear, nationalism, etc., are other conditions that can contribute to that manifestation.

- However, since any one of these conditions can contribute to manifestations other than zombie-ism, then none of these conditions can be named as a definitive cause of that manifestation.

- One must look deeper for that.

[David Quinn]

Observing logically:

- Love can be a condition that contributes to the manifestation of a zombie.

- Drugs, alcohol, food, anger, aversion, fear, nationalism, etc., are other conditions that can contribute to that manifestation.

- However, since any one of these conditions can contribute to manifestations other than zombie-ism, then none of these conditions can be named as a definitive cause of that manifestation.

- One must look deeper for that.

One of my favourite passages from Soren Kierkegaard's piece called The Banquet concerns this subject:

As I have said, it is through woman that ideality is born into the world and -- what were man without her! There is many a man who has become a genius through a woman, many a one a hero, many a one a poet, many a one even a saint; but he did not become a genius through the woman he married, for through her he only became a privy councillor; he did not become a hero through the woman he married, for through her he only became a general; he did not become a poet through the woman he married, for through her he only became a father; he did not become a saint through the woman he married, for he did not marry, and would have married but one -- the one whom he did not marry; just as the others became a genius, became a hero, became a poet through the help of the woman they did not marry. If woman's ideality were in itself inspiring, why, then the inspiring woman would be the one to whom a man is united for life. But life tells a different story. It is only by a negative relation to her that man is rendered productive in his ideal endeavors.

So yes, it is possible to escape the trap of zombiness and even be inspired to greater things through the experience of love, but only if you don't let it go too far and allow it to become a domestic prison. But it has to be said, this is a very rare occurrance and contains enormous risks.

I'd recommend The Banquet to anyone who has an interest in understanding the nature of love. It is most amusing, and very profound as well.

-

[Kunga]

Kunga I think that would qualify as psychotic, not romantic.

Maybe...i became extremely depressed as time went on by the thought of losing him..we were both in the military and separated most of the time...when i realized he could not make a commitment to me (as he put his education first after he got out of the military)...i turned to drugs and being promiscuous...to drowned out all my feelings for him...but it didn't work....i read his love letters and cried for 30 years after....what a waste of energy !

anyways....here's some more wisdom from a Buddhist standpoint on "Love" :


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... e.html#ch2

[Cahoot]

David:

I will read The Banquet sometime.

That’s a very entertaining passage!

It does not mention love. It talks about ideality. To apply the concept of ideality to love makes love into an ideal, that is, something born of the imaginary mind.

Illusions are imagined.

Realizing that illusions are imagined, and that ideal love is imagined, is a step in pulling back the curtain that shrouds the true nature of love.

[IJesusChrist]

I'm really hungry.