There is no logic for existence

[jufa]

THERE IS NO LOGIC FOR ANYTHING IN THIS UNIVERSE TO EXIST. To be more percise, there is no logic to existence. From my vision, this concludes all that exist should not. So when analyzing and dealing with effects I have observed by my outer objective vision, and acknowledged as reality by my inner subjective feeling, I find such mental exercise leads me to deduce on that which has no meaning except what I clothes it with.

What is? In asking myself this question, I found the answer to be there is no logic to creation. Found not this logic in books, religion, philosophy, procreation, and even within the life I live as life, there then is no logic for my existence, and therefore the universe, nor the laws which govern the activities of the universe.

In swaying from my reasoning for a moment, I find the words of the Apostle Paul:

"I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitutious. For as I passed by, and behild your devotion, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD, Whom, therefore, ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you,"

to be a truth in one way, and a lie in another, for Paul does not declared God, only God's activities. God to Paul was, as God is today, a mystery incomprehensible to the human mind.

So in returning to the subject matter, I declare: There is no logical reason for mankind to exist. There is no logical reason for this universe to exist. There is no logical reason for you and I to exist

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

[bruhaha2]

There is no logical reason for mankind to exist. There is no logical reason for this universe to exist.

But there are logical reasons to believe you do exist, and from this we can come to find logical reasons to believe the universe does exist.

If you mean purpose, well once you've justified your own existence, you can decide your purpose, and that purpose is inherently subjective. Descartes justifies existence so simply, "I think, therefore I am".

What purpose can be applied to the universe? How can we justify a purpose for what we still fail to grasp, just like consciousness? All I can say is I will decide the path I walk and layout my purpose for the universe.

[jufa]

But there are logical reasons to believe you do exist, and from this we can come to find logical reasons to believe the universe does exist.

If you mean purpose, well once you've justified your own existence, you can decide your purpose, and that purpose is inherently subjective. Descartes justifies existence so simply, "I think, therefore I am".

What purpose can be applied to the universe? How can we justify a purpose for what we still fail to grasp, just like consciousness? All I can say is I will decide the path I walk and layout my purpose for the universe.

Your opening statement has merit within the framework of activity of finding "logical reasons to believe the universe does exist." But your statement does not deal with you presenting logic for existence.

Purpose of existence deals with another subject matter entirely. Purpose of application dealing with the universe can be answered, but that also deals with another subject matter not found in this thread.

Never give power to anything a person believe is their source of strength - jufa

[Pincho Paxton]

Perhaps there is no reason to require a reason? There is no reason to look at a painting. There is no reason to listen to music. Pleasure has no reason, because without existence we need no pleasure. It goes on until you name all forms of activity. So existence just happened, and once we existed we now needed to find things to do, otherwise we stagnate. My cat finds pleasure in eating its dinner every day, it waits for that moment. So pleasure is to do with intelligence. We try to make a reason to exist, but a cat just wants its dinner.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

So in returning to the subject matter, I declare: There is no logical reason for mankind to exist. There is no logical reason for this universe to exist. There is no logical reason for you and I to exist

The problem here is that you want to apply logic which belongs in one realm to something like existence which cannot be a subject of logic. Perhaps one takes just a specific part of existence, like 'mankind' and find reasons for this part and what actually happens is that one would try to relate this part to the current context. So why humanity here, why now, from which causes? Many reasons can form during such inquiry, neither will be absolute since its context will never be.

However, when addressing existence itself one has to admit it's beyond logic. If anything it's logic itself: existence asserts itself as logical conclusion: existence is the prime mover to the question of its existence.

One could say: there can not be any logical reason for existence itself since to find reasons we already have to turn existence into something it isn't: a thought, a part or a section: a non-existing element.

For the existence of mankind there are many reasons available, always have been, always be and one is always free to create more. Just ask the question in the right context without mixing it up with absolutes.

[jufa]

The problem here is that you want to apply logic which belongs in one realm to something like existence which cannot be a subject of logic.

What you have presented above cannot be deemed to a problem. Why? because to get to a realm of existence as you have indicated above, there must be causation. To get there, you must present logic for existence of the realm.

To say "existence cannot be a subject of logic" is contrary to the very truth that we are speaking logically of existence herein, even though we have not found logic for existence of anything, and if logic has not been found, purpose has not been found. So to avoid overlooking the theme I have presented, this direct question: what is the logic for existence and creation is the appropriate starting point of dialogue. All else jumps over the cause and deals with the effect, which has nothing to do with what I have presented.

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

[jufa]

Perhaps there is no reason to require a reason? There is no reason to look at a painting. There is no reason to listen to music. Pleasure has no reason, because without existence we need no pleasure. It goes on until you name all forms of activity. So existence just happened, and once we existed we now needed to find things to do, otherwise we stagnate. My cat finds pleasure in eating its dinner every day, it waits for that moment. So pleasure is to do with intelligence. We try to make a reason to exist, but a cat just wants its dinner.

Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps. If, if, if. Maybe, maybe, maybe. Suppose, suppose, suppose. It could be, it could be, it could be. None of the above is applicable in making ones self clear as to whether there is, or is not logic for existence.

If one knows of logic for existence, then one should say yes there is logic, and proceed to present said logic.

If one knows not logic for existence, then the simple statement should be given stating I do not know.

It all boils down to this - yes there is and this is why, or there is no logic.

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

[Diebert van Rhijn]

The problem here is that you want to apply logic which belongs in one realm to something like existence which cannot be a subject of logic.

What you have presented above cannot be deemed to a problem. Why? because to get to a realm of existence as you have indicated above, there must be causation. To get there, you must present logic for existence of the realm.

Well, any axiom will be by definition the self-evident truth that supplies the logic of a system or realm. It's not logic I need to present, I only need to assert self-evident truth and all springs into place.

One could imagine some higher order form of logic that underlies this truth but the same situation arises: you cannot address a higher order "truth" with a logic stemming from a system based on that truth as axiom.

what is the logic for existence and creation is the appropriate starting point of dialogue.

The appropriate starting point could be called absolute truth. The moment it's asserted one has contrast and logic. One cannot reach for some logic "beyond" this without leaving the dialog altogether, or the system, the realm or context one finds oneself part of, as in: "there is existence".

[jufa]

Well, any axiom will be by definition the self-evident truth that supplies the logic of a system or realm. It's not logic I need to present, I only need to assert self-evident truth and all springs into place.

One could imagine some higher order form of logic that underlies this truth but the same situation arises: you cannot address a higher order "truth" with a logic stemming from a system based on that truth as axiom.

The appropriate starting point could be called absolute truth. The moment it's asserted one has contrast and logic. One cannot reach for some logic "beyond" this without leaving the dialog altogether, or the system, the realm or context one finds oneself part of, as in: "there is existence".

Well lets see if that axiom can be defined by your ability to comprehend and give self-evidence as to why existence exist. Don't want to hear what one could imagine, want you to testify that existence exist because of?

Should you keep hee-hawing about, it is the starting point for me to end such frivolous dialogue with you once again. If you will not state definitively existence exist because of? Or if you will not state the reason for existence to exist I cannot express because I don't know, then again I am dismissing myself from our intercourse.

p.s Hope my repetitiveness will wake you up to what is being asked of you. I have not asked you to present logic, and I have not asked if, in quoting you: "One could imagine." And I have not asked you what anything "could be called.
I have asked you to present self-evidence that there is, or isn't logic for existence.

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

[Trevor Salyzyn]

THERE IS NO LOGIC FOR ANYTHING IN THIS UNIVERSE TO EXIST.

What about logic? You seem to take it for granted that it exists.

From my vision, this concludes all that exist should not.

Simply because you judge that something exists accidentally, you don't need to make the further evaluation that it should not exist. I can just as easily say that all things that exist accidentally should exist, and I'd be standing on just as firm ground as you are.

[Carl G]

Today: then again I am dismissing myself from our intercourse.

Yesterday: I dismiss myself from this frivolous conversation with you also.

Yesterday: Nothing else needs to be said here then. I'm dismissing myself. Peace out!

You seem rather dismissive of people. Is that a good thing, do you think?

[Ryan Rudolph]

yes, I believe that logic is great for describing appearances, and coming to certain conclusions about the nature of existence, but it does a lousy job in actually explaining why consciousness exists at all.


"while staring into the grand infinite abyss, the abyss didn't stare back at me, but rather a reflection of a face, a reflection of a mind, a mind torn between feelings of strangeness, bewilderment and amazement. A reflection that drew a blank when coming face to face with the "why" question. Those feelings eventually faded into nothing, and one was left to create owns own relative meaning for existing"

Ryan Rudolph.

[Nick]

I doesn't mean anything to say "there is no logic for existence". It's like saying "the room isn't big enough for blue". Existence simply operates based on logical principles. We can either understand this and take control of our lives in order to make conscious decisions, or we can fumble around in ignorance being dictated by things we don't fully understand.

[bruhaha2]

Purpose of existence deals with another subject matter entirely. Purpose of application dealing with the universe can be answered, but that also deals with another subject matter not found in this thread.

What would you expect logic for existence to look like, or be defined as? Explain what you mean by "logic for existence". If you don't know what the logic would look like, how do you know you haven't already found it?

[Blair]

So in returning to the subject matter, I declare: There is no logical reason for mankind to exist. There is no logical reason for this universe to exist. There is no logical reason for you and I to exist

Since you are using a logically (endowed) mind to deduce this, and can't see ultimately the logic of it all, it means you are missing something at a higher level than that which is currently apparent.

[jufa]

Since you are using a logically (endowed) mind to deduce this, and can't see ultimately the logic of it all, it means you are missing something at a higher level than that which is currently apparent.

What I am missing is for you to agree or disagree definitively with my statement: "There is no logical reason for mankind to exist. There is no logical reason for this universe to exist. There is no logical reason for you and I to exist."

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

[Blair]

Well I obviously disagree, and I gave you the reason.(and the answer)

I'd expand, but if I start referring to "G", Dan is gonna come along and call me a 'dolt'.

[jufa]

Well I obviously disagree, and I gave you the reason.(and the answer)

I'd expand, but if I start referring to "G", Dan is gonna come along and call me a 'dolt'.

What is obvious is this truth, you have not gave a logical reason for the existence of the universe to exist.

And if you start referring to God, you must define what God you are referring to, why He/She/It are made known to you, and has remain a metaphorical mystery down through the ages to everyone else but reveal Him/Her/It Self to you. Then tell how others may see, hear, touch, taste, and smell Him/Her/It.

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

[Blair]

Well no, I'm not obliged to explain anything to you, or your attitude at all.

[Pam Seeback]

I do not know what logic is. I do not know what existence is. I do not know what any human thought is.

[jufa]

Depavu

Jupa:
Quote:
There is no logical reason for mankind to exist.

Actually, there are quite a few!


Quote:
There is no logical reason for this universe to exist.

What about the logic that it can do none other?


Quote:
There is no logical reason for you and I to exist


You're just looking for a logic that doesn't change! Good luck. Nature can afford to be unscrupulous (:D)

Humanity is still too immature to seek a natural order within itself.

You as everyone else here have dodged giving reason or logic of agreement or disagreement to the statement: "There is no logic for existence." When you stop putting the cart before the horse, then you will be able to ride. If you don't, you continue to push and struggle with the immaturity of lack of knowledge of what is called for in the moment.

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

[Pam Seeback]

In part, you must, a little at least. An investment to ward off insanity. Do you know what humour is?

You may believe you know what investment is or what insanity is or what humour is; I do not share this belief. That is the difference between us. I am aware that every human word is a lie, and I am being obedient to this awareness.

By relatedness, I am aware of the fear of living without attachment to idea. The attachment that hinders the free flow of the thinker thinking [only] of the thinker. This is my dedicated purpose; to transcend the belief that man needs human words to be [thought].

[Tomas]

.

Tomas note: Just a couple comments before reply (in part) as prolly won't
finish response in one sitting. And take your time in a response.


-jufa-
THERE IS NO LOGIC FOR ANYTHING IN THIS UNIVERSE TO EXIST. To be more precise, there is no logic to existence. From my vision, this concludes all that exist should not. So when analyzing and dealing with effects I have observed by my outer objective vision, and acknowledged as reality by my inner subjective feeling, I find such mental exercise leads me to deduce on that which has no meaning except what I clothes it with.

-tomas-
True, we only see the "created side of the universe" in our birth parents, the yet-to-be-created universe hasn't come to pass for those who haven't created an offshoot of their essence (sperm/egg union). If one has created children (offspring), then one has a glimpse of the future's present tense, but the time frame is but a short peek as our eternal life is from dust-to-dust in this created realm.


-jufa-
What is? In asking myself this question, I found the answer to be there is no logic to creation. Found not this logic in books, religion, philosophy, procreation, and even within the life I live as life, there then is no logic for my existence, and therefore the universe, nor the laws which govern the activities of the universe.

-tomas-
It's soil, water and some unknown essence not in my capture (as I haven't figgered that out yet). The tree of (the knowledge of) good and evil is in all of us but the pure mind just ain't been revealed to me as yet. My thoughts are only as good as what I put into it, the study of human culture, animal culture, in some areas plant culture. Being a "carnivorous creature" by natural law, suppose I have a somewhat jaded view of "the Totality."


-jufa-
In swaying from my reasoning for a moment, I find the words of the Apostle Paul:
"I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitutious. For as I passed by, and behild your devotion, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD, Whom, therefore, ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you,"

-tomas-
No comment at this time - I'm no king james fan :-(


-jufa-
to be a truth in one way, and a lie in another, for Paul does not declared God, only God's activities. God to Paul was, as God is today, a mystery incomprehensible to the human mind.

-tomas-
Withhold comment, again.


-jufa-
So in returning to the subject matter, I declare: There is no logical reason for mankind to exist. There is no logical reason for this universe to exist. There is no logical reason for you and I to exist.

-tomas-
"I" exist to nurture my youngest (and last) human offspring to maturity, perhaps she will enlighten me .. further onto this universal truth.

PS - Remember this, jufu: Life is hard. You can't buy happiness no matter what you do. You can't get to Heaven (a safe haven) on roller skates AND you can't take a taxi-cab to Timbuktu.

Life is hard.

[jufa]

Tomas note: Just a couple comments before reply (in part) as prolly won't
finish response in one sitting. And take your time in a response.


-jufa-
THERE IS NO LOGIC FOR ANYTHING IN THIS UNIVERSE TO EXIST. To be more precise, there is no logic to existence. From my vision, this concludes all that exist should not. So when analyzing and dealing with effects I have observed by my outer objective vision, and acknowledged as reality by my inner subjective feeling, I find such mental exercise leads me to deduce on that which has no meaning except what I clothes it with.

-tomas-
True, we only see the "created side of the universe" in our birth parents, the yet-to-be-created universe hasn't come to pass for those who haven't created an offshoot of their essence (sperm/egg union). If one has created children (offspring), then one has a glimpse of the future's present tense, but the time frame is but a short peek as our eternal life is from dust-to-dust in this created realm.


-jufa-
What is? In asking myself this question, I found the answer to be there is no logic to creation. Found not this logic in books, religion, philosophy, procreation, and even within the life I live as life, there then is no logic for my existence, and therefore the universe, nor the laws which govern the activities of the universe.

-tomas-
It's soil, water and some unknown essence not in my capture (as I haven't figgered that out yet). The tree of (the knowledge of) good and evil is in all of us but the pure mind just ain't been revealed to me as yet. My thoughts are only as good as what I put into it, the study of human culture, animal culture, in some areas plant culture. Being a "carnivorous creature" by natural law, suppose I have a somewhat jaded view of "the Totality."


-jufa-
In swaying from my reasoning for a moment, I find the words of the Apostle Paul:
"I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitutious. For as I passed by, and behild your devotion, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD, Whom, therefore, ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you,"

-tomas-
No comment at this time - I'm no king james fan :-(


-jufa-
to be a truth in one way, and a lie in another, for Paul does not declared God, only God's activities. God to Paul was, as God is today, a mystery incomprehensible to the human mind.

-tomas-
Withhold comment, again.


-jufa-
So in returning to the subject matter, I declare: There is no logical reason for mankind to exist. There is no logical reason for this universe to exist. There is no logical reason for you and I to exist.

-tomas-
"I" exist to nurture my youngest (and last) human offspring to maturity, perhaps she will enlighten me .. further onto this universal truth.

PS - Remember this, jufu: Life is hard. You can't buy happiness no matter what you do. You can't get to Heaven (a safe haven) on roller skates AND you can't take a taxi-cab to Timbuktu.

Life is hard.

Finally someone has dealt with the subject matter.

Thank you Thomas for leaving out all the ism's.

You say life is hard, I say life is easy or hard according to ones thoughts. But irrespective life is. What life is is to infinite for my finite mind to comprehend, but I can comprehend my living within life.

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

[Tomas]

.


-Ryan Rudolph-
yes, I believe that logic is great for describing appearances, and coming to certain conclusions about the
nature of existence, but it does a lousy job in actually explaining why consciousness exists at all.

-tomas-
Not bad, Ryan. For me, I'd add that the VietNam experience changed forever how consciousness came about.

Creating a child practically out of thin air (via the "minutely small" sperm/egg thingy) was a sight to behold nine months later. The consciousness-side of it is the realization that humans have been doing this for uncounted-eon.. True, one can only assimilate a conscious act one at a time, but there is no(?) other way of observation.



-Ryan-
"while staring into the grand infinite abyss, the abyss didn't stare back at me, but rather a reflection of a face, a reflection of a mind, a mind torn between feelings of strangeness, bewilderment and amazement.

-tomas-
Thank you for this. It's so much like the first LSD experience :-)

A near-close second was the first sexual orgasm (commonly referred to as a wet dream). My mom about went nuts when I attempted to explain what was/had been happening in the briefs-underwear .. remember waking up about 2 AM with this mushy "substance" about me .. she referred me to my dad who told me the male-side of the facts of life.


-Ryan-
A reflection that drew a blank when coming face to face with the "why" question. Those feelings eventually faded into nothing, and one was left to create owns own relative meaning for existing" - Ryan Rudolph.

-tomas-
How true. That's how I somewhat felt (that inner yin/yang) upon meeting my girlfriend (life-mate, companion, partner) for the first time. To learn what the meaning for existence is is an unknown known.

Be well, Ryan.