There is no logic for existence

[Diebert van Rhijn]

dejavu: Existence (and there is nothing but) has no ultimate consequence

Diebert: But itself. Voilà.

Not even. For how could it then be infinite?

Why do you think existence could ever be called infinite? Can it manifest in any other way but impermanence?

[jufa]

jufa:

jufa:
My peroffered proof is no one can define consciousness?

Carmel:
That's not proof. It's an opinion.

jufa:
Now if this proof is incorrect, would like for you to prove me wrong and define consciousness definitively with proffered proof,

Carmel:
I'm not claiming that your proof is incorrect. I'm simply saying that it isn't proof, at all, it's merely an unsubstantiated opinion.

It is not an opinion, for no one, including any organization, secular, religions, scientific, or philosophical you would like to define, or present data from can define consciousness. You asked for proffered proof,

Carmel:
That's a misquote, I believe it was dejavu who said that...but while I'm here, what do you mean by "proven truth", what proof do you have to proffer?

I gave it to you, and asked you to give me proffered proof I was incorrect, and you could not. Now, as you can claim my proof is not incorrect with noticing what I have present as proof, why do you refuse to acknowledge my other questions I repeat below?

So the following question are presented:

What is the logic for the existence of consciousness?
What is the logic for the existence of the mind?
What is the logic for the universe?
How can logic, for consciousness, for the mind, or the universe be the visiting points for logical discussiong when the logic for the existence of the above has not been established?

I repeat the title to this thread: "There is no logic for existence." If there is logic for the existence of the universe, someone GIVE IT UP.

What is the logic for existence? Not consciousness, not the human mind, not the universe, but existence itself. This is what this thread is seeking an answer of.

Why are you and everyone else ignoring these questions?

Is there logic for existence? If you have the answer to this question, please GIVE IT UP!!! If one can not give logic for existence, then what all this other stuff about?

"THERE IS NO LOGIC FOR EXISTENCE" Simple statement

Yes, it is and that logic is this. Simple defining statement of unified truth to be presented

I do not know. Simple statement of truth.

Cannot be any more clear than that.

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Why are you and everyone else ignoring these questions?

Why are you not listening to the answers? You're of course not really asking questions, you're trying to make us see it your way. That's why it seems to you like everyone is ignoring it.

[Gurrb]

Carmel:
As for "proof", you can't just arbitrarily redefine words to suit your purpose.

proof: evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true or factual.

I now know what jufa was trying to convey, she/he simply didn't state it accurately. I was simply pointing that out to demonstrate that it's important to choose your words carefully, so that others can understand your message.[/quote]

I'm not arbitrarily redefining words. What I'm saying as that we have defined 'proof' as humans, and i should adhere to this definition, despite the fact that I think we approach all proofs with a bias.

[mensa-maniac]

I believe the logic for existence is not to merely exist, but to live life to the fullest of one's ability. To help each other to accept humanity is here on earth alone and that we only have each other to rely on for comfort. To help others as they too may be merely existing and not living life to happiness.

The logic is we're all here on this earth and don't know why, we have the choice to believe in the Bible's content or not. The logic is we have no proof to believe in the Bible, but we have each other to believe in.

The logic is we expect answers from one another, but no one has them. The logic is is to maintain sanity or get lost in a world of insanity.

The logic is is to comfort questioning minds with truth. The Bible presents itself as truth for one to decide by choice of it's authenticity or not.

Logic tells me to believe in the Bible as truth rather than believe in it as non-truths, because there is no other source to believe in. And it is comforting to believe in something than not to believe in anything.

[Carmel]

Gurrb:
I'm not arbitrarily redefining words. What I'm saying as that we have defined 'proof' as humans, and i should adhere to this definition, despite the fact that I think we approach all proofs with a bias.

Carmel:
Ok, gotcha now, thanks for clarifying that. I would agree that we can never escape bias for a multitude of reasons, but primarily because it's an inherent limitation of our neurological and physiological processes.

Animus explains this quite well in several of his posts if ever feel inclined to learn more about it.

[Beingof1]

Right method of inquiry - what does the universe ask?
More is what it already is.

What do I want?

I know this because this question is the property of the universe. This is self evident because of this thread.

If it is you or I asking the question that must be, according to the rules of logical, cause and effect. The question of the universe itself.

We arrive at the same question - what do I want?

The universe does not ask for more, the universe just says - I AM. I AM all and all. So what is the question to be asked again. More of what? I AM THAT I AM.!!! Now what AM I?

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

If it is enough to know that one is, there would be no reason or desire to express this state of being, true?

[jufa]

Dejavu, you sure bring a smile to my big face.

Of course you are correct by your definition. Let me explain. If there is no final logic for existence, then there must be a logic for existence, this logic however is beyond the human mind to grasp because man cannot look into the infinity of himself

Now what person who would register on a forum with the title Genius do you know who would have a small head? Are there any small heads here that you know of, including yourself?

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

[jufa]

Beingof1 states
If it is enough to know that one is, there would be no reason or desire to express this state of being, true?

When one knows who they are, they would have no reason or desire to state, or express what they are in human terms. When they do express questions of abstract nature, such as the one you have presented to me, they are living states of beings enslaved by the first two temptations. Did not Buddha and Jesus make this plain?

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

[Gurrb]

Existence cannot have logic, for this would assume that logic existed before existence. Logic is arbitrary, simply a means of 'understanding' what we don't understand. Logic co-exists with existence, thus existence cannot be worthy of logical means; logic 'exists' only because we exist and for no other reason, but this does not mean their in logic in our existence.

[Gurrb]

tautological reasoning seems to be very prevalent here. "why do we exist? because we're meant to exist. why are we meant to exist? because we exist, so there must be a reason..."

[Tomas]

tautological reasoning seems to be very prevalent here. "why do we exist? because we're meant to exist. why are we meant to exist? because we exist, so there must be a reason..."

YO, Guurb. Check out some of Kevin and Dan's videos

[Beingof1]

Beingof1 states
If it is enough to know that one is, there would be no reason or desire to express this state of being, true?

When one knows who they are, they would have no reason or desire to state, or express what they are in human terms. When they do express questions of abstract nature, such as the one you have presented to me, they are living states of beings enslaved by the first two temptations. Did not Buddha and Jesus make this plain?

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

Humanity is where the need is to express, why do you desire to do this?

[Gurrb]

the question at hand is that of the 'ultimate', all else are mere arbitrary definitions created by human.

[jufa]

Beingof1 states:

Humanity is where the need is to express, why do you desire to do this?

Being humanity seek immortality, why then is death expressed?

In a previous post to Beingof1 jufa stated and asked:

When they do express questions of abstract nature, such as the one you have presented to me, they are living states of beings enslaved by the first two temptations. Did not Buddha and Jesus make this plain?

This is not a one-way street. If a response is sought, then question mus be answered first.

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

[Beingof1]

Beingof1 states:

Humanity is where the need is to express, why do you desire to do this?

Being humanity seek immortality, why then is death expressed?

In a previous post to Beingof1 jufa stated and asked:

When they do express questions of abstract nature, such as the one you have presented to me, they are living states of beings enslaved by the first two temptations. Did not Buddha and Jesus make this plain?

This is not a one-way street. If a response is sought, then question mus be answered first.

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

1) Death is an expression of a threat of epic proportion. The worldview that belief in the material is absolute.

2)Oh I don't know Jufa, perhaps you should not be sharing anything with me at all and just express your I amness. The only question you stated was that I AM leads to the question what am I?

This is the discussion:

Jufa:
The universe does not ask for more, the universe just says - I AM. I AM all and all. So what is the question to be asked again. More of what? I AM THAT I AM.!!! Now what AM I?

Beingof1:
If it is enough to know that one is, there would be no reason or desire to express this state of being, true?

I did respond.

In the next exchange, I will do it again.

Jufa:
When one knows who they are, they would have no reason or desire to state, or express what they are in human terms. When they do express questions of abstract nature, such as the one you have presented to me, they are living states of beings enslaved by the first two temptations. Did not Buddha and Jesus make this plain?

Beingof1:
Humanity is where the need is to express, why do you desire to do this?

Because I ask a question does not mean I am not stating a position, It means, we are exploring.

Desire is a product of reality - this is an absolute truth as both Jesus and the Buddha actually lived, taught, ate, taught some more, then slept.

[jufa]

Let me put this thread back into its proper place. This discussion, and it is not a discussion as you have stated:

This is the discussion:

Quote:
Jufa:
The universe does not ask for more, the universe just says - I AM. I AM all and all. So what is the question to be asked again. More of what? I AM THAT I AM.!!! Now what AM I?

Beingof1:
If it is enough to know that one is, there would be no reason or desire to express this state of being, true?

The discussion began between you and I when I made the following statement:

What I am missing is for you to agree or disagree definitive with my statement: There is no logic for mankind to exist. There is no logical reason for this universe to exist. there is no logical reason for you to exist.

The following is what you came back with:

Logic is about identifying what is real and what is imagined. Illumination is the same thing, enlightenment is all about sanity.

Why do I exist?

Because I want to, its why I eat.

I replied to you saying I put to you:

The same question given Jamesh to answer is given to you:

"So pray tell what is that logic?"

which you never answered.

So before we go any further here, I am voiding your last post to me until you answer the following question I presented to you earlier.

Quote:
So the following question are presented:

What is the logic for the existence of consciousness?
What is the logic for the existence of the mind?
What is the logic for the universe?
How can logic, for consciousness, for the mind, or the universe be the visiting points for logical discussiong when the logic for the existence of the above has not been established?

I repeat the title to this thread: "There is no logic for existence." If there is logic for the existence of the universe, someone GIVE IT UP.

What is the logic for existence? Not consciousness, not the human mind, not the universe, but existence itself. This is what this thread is seeking an answer of.

Before I go, I do want to say this about your answer to my question:

Being humanity seek immortality, why then is death expressed?

Which you replied:

Death is an expression of a threat of epic proportion. The worldview that belief in the material is absolute.

Bullshit. And again you did not answer the question put to you. Did not asked you what death is an expression of, I asked you:

why then is death expressed?

The second half of this presentation made me fall off my seat with laughter because you have forgotten you are on the Genius Forum, and all who have been following this thread know when I made the following statement:

The universe does not ask for more, the universe just says - I AM. I AM all and all. So what is the question to be asked again. More of what? I AM THAT I AM.!!! Now what AM I?

I was talking to Dejavu about the universe, not myself.

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

[Beingof1]

Jufa,

Carry on as we seem not to be able to communicate.

Good journey to ya.

[Gurrb]

if a saint were to commit suicide, would he go to hell? if a man were to kill a future serial killer, would he go to hell? if a thinking man were to claim there's no heaven, would he go to hell?

[Tomas]

.


-Gurrb-
if a saint were to commit suicide, would he go to hell?

-tomas-
However (and whomever) one dies by whatever means, natural or otherwise. It is to dust, the ground, hell .. literally "dust".


-Gurrb-
if a man were to kill a future serial killer, would he go to hell?

-tomas-
First, if you were caught by legal authorities of this world, and found guilty, perhaps you'd go to a psychiatric ward and spend some time on the couch talking about your future fantasies. You may eventually go to prison .. if convicted. Arnold Schwarzeneggar would pummel you for a while in The Terminator, where we'd watch you suffer. Eventually you'd go to hell (the ground) as we all do. Nobody gets out of this world alive.


-Gurrb-
if a thinking man were to claim there's no heaven, would he go to hell?

-tomas-
The only safe haven (heaven) is to be.

PS - See ya on the flip side.

[Gurrb]

what i'm saying is we view sin as sin, but all things are based on circumstances. something based on a set of rules doesn't consider circumstances. i'm questioning the religious view of acting pure and righteous. i started a thread earlier which was trying to say this: a man of sin ends up the same way as a man of purity... dead. disappointed by the answers, as they lacked any sort of philosophical reasoning, and were answers that oozed with societies norms. why be pure when sin produces the same result?

i don't think one can even come close to 'enlightenment' if they value their intelligence.

[Tomas]

.


-Gurrb-
What i'm saying is we view sin as sin, but all things are based on circumstances.
Something based on a set of rules doesn't consider circumstances.

-tomas-
The 10 commandments are universal. All creatures everywhere understand sin.


-Gurrb-
I'm questioning the religious view of acting pure and righteous.

-tomas-
Any special sort of sect in mind?


-Gurrb-
I started a thread earlier which was trying to say this: a man of sin ends up the same
way as a man of purity... dead. Disappointed by the answers, as they lacked any sort
of philosophical reasoning, and were answers that oozed with societies norms.

-tomas-
Kindly clean up the second sentence ;-)

-Gurrb-
Why be pure when sin produces the same result?

-tomas-
So, Dan Rowden, (also the administrator) should allow spammers (the deviants) to post their carnage without any repercussions for the so-called "pure" members?


-Gurrb-
I don't think one can even come close to 'enlightenment' if they value their intelligence.

-tomas-
Intelligence is a numbers game. I'll comment further when that earlier sentence is reworked.

[Gurrb]

the ten commandments were created by creatures of sin. Dan Rowden is an admin to a website, do not confuse this with anything remotely relevant to human actions.

[Gurrb]

except for the desire to control.

[RWI]

No logic for the universe to exist?

Perhaps it is a question of knowledge, not logic.

We don't know how the universe began, some people say that it never began, some say that it was created, but we don't really know.

Logic is (in one description) the human explanation for the occurrences of the known universe, new discoveries throughout history have often flown in the face of logic, because these discoveries were completely beyond (Or at least unfamiliar to) the contemporary knowledge of the time, ie. The Earth is round.

We don't have any knowledge of any kind of occurrence that could create existence (Or at least we haven't identified it) and the idea that the universe never had a beginning is nearly incomprehensible, therefore our very existence is deemed 'illogical'.

But we do exist, the universe exists, therefore there must be some hidden logic, hidden knowledge that we haven't discovered yet that explains there creation of the universe (Or lack of a creation)