Murder and Philosophy

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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Trevor Salyzyn
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Murder and Philosophy

Post by Trevor Salyzyn »

When I was younger, I wanted to be a criminal profiler. Even though life took me in a different direction, I still love people watching. But I've never seen a serial killer. How does the mind of a serial killer work? It's the one thing, as a philosopher, I've never been able to figure out.
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Nick
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Re: Murder and Philosophy

Post by Nick »

Because they believe human life has inherent qualities to it, much like the average person does. Ironically it's almost as if a serial killer values human life more than the average person that causes them to feel so alive when they take one.
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Trevor Salyzyn
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Re: Murder and Philosophy

Post by Trevor Salyzyn »

What about trophies? The only thing I've ever collected is coins. I'm completely indifferent to money, though. I'd bet if I cared about the value of my collection, I wouldn't have such a large one.

Philosophy, on the other hand, I care about. The motive is somewhat humanistic, like right now I'm trying to figure out how to make sure the world is ready for artificial intelligence (so we don't have a problem with computers being so much better than us at systematic thought). It's not really a collection, so much as an activity where I'm constantly giving away everything to other people.

I think non-systematic laws (instead of a legal system) would prevent a "kill all humans" scenario. As far as I can tell, machines can't transcend logic and believe contradictions. That's a slight advantage for humans, just enough that skilled humans can beat powerful machines at Chess. Strategy instead of system.

Bah, I got off topic. Are serial killers incapable of strategic thought? That's my best guess, simply from their urge to collect.
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Nick
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Re: Murder and Philosophy

Post by Nick »

I don't mean value in a monetary or moral sense, I simply mean believing it is something extraordinarily significant when compared to something else. A serial killer values their collection of human lives they've taken just like you value your collection of coins. The difference is superficial, because where the serial killer seeks out human life to take for his collection, you seek out coins to take for your collection.
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Carl G
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Re: Murder and Philosophy

Post by Carl G »

How do we know that serial killers value their collection of lives taken? All serial killers? Maybe some are too psychotic to value much of anything except their own pain.
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Nick
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Re: Murder and Philosophy

Post by Nick »

No matter what, it's always going to be a result of seeing a human life as something extraordinary, and by taking it away, they themselves become extraordinary. It all boils down to being trapped in duality and believing in inherent existence.
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Carl G
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Re: Murder and Philosophy

Post by Carl G »

Right, it always comes down to delusion caused by identification with the self, the world, or what have you. So true.

I've got to say it again, I swear, why do we tolerate the Worldly Matters Forum. It is nothing but a breeding ground for the same sort of delusion. We should be ashamed. I say we close it permanently.
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Cory Duchesne
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Re: Murder and Philosophy

Post by Cory Duchesne »

Nick is on to something, but on the other hand there are lots of people out there who are very intense when it comes to loving particular persons, but the thought of mass killing doesn't cross their mind (if extremely distressed, they will likely think of killing themselves, and maybe one particular person, but serial killing is just crazy to them)

There are checks in place for most people (such as revulsion to wounds and blood, and mirror neurons cause us to feel squeamish when another person is hurt, their is the natural fear of retribution, and most people identify murder as base, animal-like, and thus shameful).

I think there is something physiologically different about the brains of killers. It brings to mind a case study in one of my psyche books from university:

A newly wed husband complained of headaches for months and noticed he was having intensely violent thoughts and urges. He went to a psychologist, who for the most part brushed him off. A few months later, he wrote a suicide note explaining his dilemma, and then proceeded to kill his wife, his parents, and went to a university and took a dozen or so lives, before taking his own life.

Via autopsy, they found a large tumor in his brain.
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Trevor Salyzyn
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Re: Murder and Philosophy

Post by Trevor Salyzyn »

*shrug*

That certainly sounds intense. It's probably a lot less intense for the serial killer. It must be like being half-asleep all the time. Kind of sad.
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DHodges
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Re: Murder and Philosophy

Post by DHodges »

From what I recall, many serial killers were victims of some severe form of abuse. Some had bizarre relationships with their mothers. (Ed Gein in particular comes to mind.)
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Cory Duchesne
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Re: Murder and Philosophy

Post by Cory Duchesne »

Notably, lots of children are abused quite brutally, but they don't end up as serial killers.

Also, evidence strongly suggests that the Columbine killers never had bad childhoods at all. Nor were they really bullied (the bully theory appears to be a myth whipped up by hysteria)
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Re: Murder and Philosophy

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Cory Duchesne wrote:Notably, lots of children are abused quite brutally, but they don't end up as serial killers.
Serial killing and the delusions around it could be one attempt to solve or more probably: replay it like a bad TV show with endless reruns. Other children might be able to find another way to do this, serial relationship troubles or some other soap on repeat.. Yet others might be able to let it go and not look back. There's a lot of chance involved naturally, like having genetic make-up that can cause cancer in later life.
Also, evidence strongly suggests that the Columbine killers never had bad childhoods at all. Nor were they really bullied (the bully theory appears to be a myth whipped up by hysteria)
But this is not regarded as serial killing but more something of a murder spree with a clear ending in mind. The Beltway sniper is a more gray area. Childhood issues seem hardly relevant to that case but then again, looking at the sniper's serial marriages, his obsession with 'fathering' , actually all authority figures, or the abuse the boy got in his childhood, it could still be a factor. Abuse comes in many forms, it's rarely just physical violence.
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Re: Murder and Philosophy

Post by Cory Duchesne »

DHodges wrote:Ed Gein in particular comes to mind.)
I should add, I doubt Ed would have turned out much like he did if he had a normal upbringing. But it is interesting how is brother Henry rebelled against his mother and was described as almost normal, whereas Ed (the more effeminate one) turned out to be incredibly sick. Like Diebert alluded to - - there may be a seed in some people that becomes awakened, much like cancer attacks some people later in life.
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Re: Murder and Philosophy

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Another approach to this topic would be that certain psychological make-ups somehow open a portal to a lets say 'demonic', twisted area inside. The question would be if this area is something unique to several individuals or that the portal opening up is in itself the unique factor but the demon is a part, a function of the psyche, although never surfacing so naked. Unrestrained violence, pain-making, torturing and sadism. Once descended into that pool, it only becomes worse till all is wiped out. Hate in its purest form always turns on itself.

Example: this week this court case started in the UK about a burgerly/robbery of two French students in London. The difference with a 'normal' case is that instead of just taking the near worthless bank card, a playstation and a cellphone, the robbers decided to stab and torture the two students in the house. One students was stabbed 194 times, including stabs through the skull. The bodies and apartment were also torched.

Nobody familiar with the case knows of anything like it in criminal history. Now, one could argue for a combination of drugs and severe psychosis but it was done by a group of at least three people working together and the violence is so much over the top, so aimless that it's hard to apply the usual theories of the criminal or junky mind.

How would you start to explain this, profiler Trevor? If it's true people can unleash this degree of violence over such a pointless issue, what is needed to keep it under wraps? Where does the rage come from? Is it reacting to what deep down is seen as being done to ones 'soul'? And what would unlock the revenge in these cases?
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Ryan Rudolph
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Re: Murder and Philosophy

Post by Ryan Rudolph »

Trevor,

Based on the show "Criminal Minds" which I've been watching a bit lately, serial killers are usually classified into two groups: organized and disorganized killers.

Organized killers usually have extreme cases of obsessive compulsive disorder, combined with being hurt emotionally in the past, or just feeling isolated, and an outcast. which causing them to come to all sorts of conclusions about their self-worth and what people think of them. They use these conclusions to justify mass murder to prove a point. Some killers murder simply to prove that they are intelligent to themselves and the world, others have different motives. But basically, they want to prove something to the world, and so they plan, they watch, they stalk their victims with detailed precision. As you say Trevor, some collect trophies, and others take notes of the killing. They must also be incapable of compassion, as they believe the end justifies their means, or they are just a plain psychopaths who do not care, or couldn't imagine how other people suffer. Others are sadists who actually enjoy torture, some are classified more as sexual serial killers, as they enjoy the dominance of controlling, and ultimately taking anther's life during sex. There has been quite a bit of literature written about the relationship between death and the sexual orgasm, and many serial killers relate them to each other. So many times, they strangle their victims as they are ejaculating. Organized killers can be difficult to catch because they plan, watch and execute their plans so carefully. And they are more aware of how they might get caught. Many times, the FBI profilers are left with only few clues by which they can attempt to figure out who the person is based on their behavior. Profiling killers is a science in its own right.

Disorganized killers are easier to catch because they are usually psychotic, so they're not careful what they are doing, nothing is planned, and they usually kill multiple people based on delusions, voices, and lapses of insane visions. Many disorganized killers tend to be mentally ill to the point where they have a difficult time forming coherent sentences, or making much sense at all. Many turn out to be patients who escape from mental institutions, and not having their medications cause them to totally lose it. Although some disorganized killers are more stable, as they could be someone who just snapped due to some traumatic life event, or series of events. However, their behavior is more impulsive, and easy to investigate because they leave more clues carelessly to give themselves away such as they might kill in broad day light with witnesses everywhere. Basically, they haven't planned anything out, whereas organized killers are more skilled, and more difficult to catch.

One interesting fact I learned from criminal minds - Many times, a serial killer will inject himself into the police investigation to make himself feel smarter than police, he may even come forward as a witness. He also enjoys the power and control of following the investigation in secret, and the pleasure of believing that he is fooling everyone. FBI profilers will often use this information to catch these types of serial killers because their behavior is so predicable. An example in real life that you can watch is the documentary Paradise lost: Child murders. It follows the trial of three boys who were falsely accused and sent to prison for the murder of three younger boys. However, the real killer becomes apparent, and the audience is powerless to watch the boys go to jail. The real killer in the documentary follows this behavior exactly. he follows the camera around, constantly snooping around, talking with police, speaking as a witness in front of camera, even though it is obvious that he killed them, he even becomes overly melodramatic about the death of the boys. It is the most accurate depiction of these tendency I know of.
Last edited by Ryan Rudolph on Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:16 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Murder and Philosophy

Post by Ryan Rudolph »

Diebert,
Example: this week this court case started in the UK about a burgerly/robbery of two French students in London. The difference with a 'normal' case is that instead of just taking the near worthless bank card, a playstation and a cellphone, the robbers decided to stab and torture the two students in the house. One students was stabbed 194 times, including stabs through the skull. The bodies and apartment were also torched.
If I had to venture a guess, I would say - one of the robbers had more authority than the other two who took orders, and he probably had less fear, and so when the students showed fear, and perhaps one even became emotional, the leader sensed his authority, dominance, and used it aggressively to prove himself to the other two. The other two probably fed off the leader's confidence, and acted out violent things that they never would do if they were in a robbery by themselves. It could have evolved into a competition between the leader and his followers who could be more violent, and perhaps he simply was in control the entire time, and they fed off that.

it similar to the bully-dynamic. When a person senses fear, crying and emotionalism in someone towards them, and they enjoy the power of superiority anyway, it brings out the worst in people. The robbers were acting out with their violent sadism the following statement, "yeah, we are stronger than you in every way, and you deserve to die for it" There is an unconscious hatred towards emotionalism that most are not even aware of. That is why sadism is the norm rather than compassion. You can see people in the worst psychological pain, and some males will show hatred towards it, rather than understanding its cause.
Last edited by Ryan Rudolph on Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Murder and Philosophy

Post by Ryan Rudolph »

Cory,
Via autopsy, they found a large tumor in his brain.
Then one must ask the question of whether his tumor was caused by some other neurotic behavior over a long time that lead to the growth of a tumor and then the headaches. Apparently, Einstein had an enlarged area of his brain too, but I wonder if it was enlarged due to genetics or due to they way that Einstein thought throughout his life. The brain is a plastic muscle that changes with use and disuse, so its probably a combination of both in Einstein's case, but I'm not sure with your guy.

I would suspect that a life of repetitive neurotic thinking could cause a brain tumor in some brains, regardless of overall brain health.
Also, evidence strongly suggests that the Columbine killers never had bad childhoods at all. Nor were they really bullied (the bully theory appears to be a myth whipped up by hysteria)
I would suspect that these boys were more social outcasts who couldn't get the females that they wanted to due to "high school politics and popularity dynamics" which ultimately caused a lot of hatred of certain groups who appeared more social, happy, popular and sexually successful. The envy, jealousy, intense sexual desire, and overall hatred probably propelled those boys to plan and execute their murder plot.
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Re: Murder and Philosophy

Post by Tomas »

.


Trevor Salyzyn-
When I was younger, I wanted to be a criminal profiler.

-tomas-
What is stopping you from fulfilling at least part of the dream, even at this late date. The technological advances are so much better now and ever-growing by leaps and bounds that a lot of groups ( business, government etc) are always looking for new ways to solve old ways of doing things.


-Trev-
Even though life took me in a different direction, I still love people watching.

-tomas-
Hmmm, a few weeks back you we're commenting about being at a college dining room and you spotted seeing a girl that gave you, the come hither look?


-Trev-
But I've never seen a serial killer.

-tomas-
I met (Son of Sam) David Berkowitz 3-4 times when he was on his killing sprees, he'd been checking on his buddies up at Minot AFB and the surrounding areas. We were back in North Dakota for a family reunion and ran into "mutual friends", that was a real trip considering he shotgunned to death this dude at Minot AFB a day or so later, and another of his associates had died in a tree-felling "acccident" a day before just a few miles from where we were staying, the 'supposed satanic cult' was cleaning up loose ends. What stood out about him was that he rarely blinked. The topper was that "Sam", (he heard voices, you know), was a friend of mine's aunt's dog. Anyways, the story is long and I'd be boring you with the sordid details.

-Trev-
How does the mind of a serial killer work?

-tomas-
Berkowitz has accepted Jesus. He is the bastard son of a very, very big, bigwig New York City Jewish fellow.

Berkowitz story/photos >> http://crime.about.com/od/murder/p/sonofsam.htm

David's website: Arise and Shine >> http://ariseandshine.org


-Trev-
It's the one thing, as a philosopher, I've never been able to figure out.

-tomas-
How about you contact the Canadian version of Bureau of Prisons, perhaps you could set up some visits with some (serial killers) up there? You write well, take notes, and report back here (at some later date) with your musings, insights.

Sincerely,

Tomas
Last edited by Tomas on Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:28 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Cory Duchesne
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Re: Murder and Philosophy

Post by Cory Duchesne »

Ryan Rudolph wrote:Cory,
Via autopsy, they found a large tumor in his brain.
Then one must ask the question of whether his tumor was caused by some other neurotic behavior over a long time that lead to the growth of a tumor and then the headaches. Apparently, Einstein had an enlarged area of his brain too,
But there's a difference between a tumor (in Whitman's case, it was a cancerous tumor) and enlarging an area of your brain much like a body builder enlarges muscle (which is the case with Einstein, I think).
but I wonder if it was enlarged due to genetics or due to they way that Einstein thought throughout his life. The brain is a plastic muscle that changes with use and disuse, so its probably a combination of both in Einstein's case, but I'm not sure with your guy.
The guy I'm talking about was named Charles Whitman. Of course, it's not as simple as him simply having a brain tumor - he did have some family problems, but it was nothing too unusual or unique, IMO.
I would suspect that a life of repetitive neurotic thinking could cause a brain tumor in some brains, regardless of overall brain health.
Not sure about that... Sometimes people just get tumors. ;) But maybe. It's a theory to test, I suppose.
Also, evidence strongly suggests that the Columbine killers never had bad childhoods at all. Nor were they really bullied (the bully theory appears to be a myth whipped up by hysteria)
I would suspect that these boys were more social outcasts who couldn't get the females that they wanted to due to "high school politics and popularity dynamics" which ultimately caused a lot of hatred of certain groups who appeared more social, happy, popular and sexually successful. The envy, jealousy, intense sexual desire, and overall hatred probably propelled those boys to plan and execute their murder plot.
Yes, I agree, and to put it more mundanely, they just weren't liked by the "right" people. That made them feel bad about themselves, and angry.

On the one hand, it's important to keep in mind that a huge number of high school males experience the same alienation for the same reasons as the columbine killers - but they don't initiate a plan to become mass murderers. Hence, it's almost rational to regard Harris and Klebold as simply inherently defective personalities.

But on the other hand, there's a lot to be said about single sexed schooling. You have to wonder if Harris and Klebold would have adjusted themselves to civilization more sanely had they been educated in an all boys school. Research has shown that both boys and girls turn out much better in a single sexed setting.
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Carl G
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Re: Murder and Philosophy

Post by Carl G »

I notice this thread is called Murder and Philosophy but so far has had nothing to do with philosophy. I suggest it be relegated to the Worldly Matters Forum. I also suggest the Worldly Matters Forum be relegated to the dustbin, since it is wholly and only concerned with delusion.
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Re: Murder and Philosophy

Post by Nick »

Cory Duchesne wrote:Nick is on to something, but on the other hand there are lots of people out there who are very intense when it comes to loving particular persons, but the thought of mass killing doesn't cross their mind (if extremely distressed, they will likely think of killing themselves, and maybe one particular person, but serial killing is just crazy to them)
People have different ways of getting egotistical gratification from their delusions. Some want to hug and squeeze their delusions, some want to stab and murder them, evolution appears to have preferred the former for obvious reasons. In the case of the serial killer, there's no doubt some superficial differences in how they are able to satisfy their ego's unquenchable desire for solidification in reality. Some of these differences may be caused by environmental and genetic factors, or something like a tumor, but the core of the issue is identical to any other behavior derived from ego.

Serial killers might believe more firmly in the inherent existence of things than the average person does. Where most people are happy enough playing with their delusions in the normal socially accepted way, the serial killer goes beyond and does something much more monumental as a result of an even deeper entrenchment in samsara and an unshakable belief in the inherency of things. So when he identifies a certain trait which he finds unacceptable in a group of people, he absolutely insists on eliminating this trait, and the individuals who posses it.

On the other hand, maybe a serial killer's belief in the inherency of things is weaker than the average person, and the best way they can think of to make things, their self, and others feel more real is to kill them. To actually see people come and go by murdering them, instead of just appearing as static and lifeless individuals, it makes them appear more alive and real, which helps affirm their existence, and thus their ego's. These acts might then become an addiction, as ever more bizarre and theatrical killings are required for the reaffirmation of the ego.

Serial killing probably happens for both of these reasons depending on the individual.
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Re: Murder and Philosophy

Post by BMcGilly07 »

Nick Treklis wrote:Serial killers might believe more firmly in the inherent existence of things than the average person does.
I have often seen that most serial killers do not, in fact, view their victims as humans, as individuals, as egos, but rather as things. Perhaps it is through the apparent infinitude of emotional response elicited from within and solicited from the victim that the serial killer seeks release, release from the everyday bonds of social, moral and human finitude.

The finitude of the serial killer's own thingness can be overcome if he totally disassociates from identifying with the nearest thing to himself, the victim. There is usually a sexual component to serial killers, the childish excitement and thrills that feed his ever-growing addiction are fed and sated on the act itself, the thrill of a new identity that cannot rationally be related to because it is wholly of the unconscious, of nothingness and no-thingness.
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Ryan Rudolph
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Re: Murder and Philosophy

Post by Ryan Rudolph »

Cory,
Not sure about that... Sometimes people just get tumors. ;) But maybe. It's a theory to test, I suppose.
yes, sometimes tumors just happen, but I maybe sometimes tumors could arise in a brain that is neurotic over a long period of time. Think of what used to happen to old record players if one kept playing scratched records for long periods of time, the needle becomes dull, and eventually it malfunctions.

The same might also be said for neurotic cognition, which causes severe stress in the body and cells, and perhaps overworks the brain in areas that shouldn't be overworked in a healthy brain. Who knows, I cannot prove it, but it makes sense.

A family member of mine is a good example, a very cynical mind, who makes himself unhappy with thought-patterns, he is also easily stressed and overwhelmed by work situations. He has been like for over a decade, and in the last few years, he has contracted many illnesses due to stress, and also there is a huge bulging lump on his forehead that he hides with his hair, and he is afraid to go to the doctors for fear of what it could be.

Stress, which is the result of neurotic thought-patterns, causes the body to go out of whack in all sorts of ways. it has already been proven that it causes the immune system to weaken, spasms and tightness in the joints and muscles, certain illnesses to form, and perhaps even brain tumors in extreme cases, who knows.
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Tomas
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Re: Murder and Philosophy

Post by Tomas »

.


-The Feminine Mind-
I notice this thread is called Murder and Philosophy but so far has had nothing to do with philosophy.

-tomas-
Typical feminine thinking.


-The Feminine Mind-
I suggest it be relegated to the Worldly Matters Forum.

-tomas-
Pushing for moderator status?


-The Feminine Mind-
I also suggest the Worldly Matters Forum be relegated to the dustbin, since it is wholly and only concerned with delusion.

-tomas-
So don't go there..
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Carl G
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Re: Murder and Philosophy

Post by Carl G »

Tomas,

When you've got nothing to say feel free to not post.
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