Legalizing Suicide/Assisted Suicide

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
Elizabeth Isabelle
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Legalizing Suicide/Assisted Suicide

Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

With the exploding population, it seems prudent to at least look at the option of legalizing suicide. It seems odd to me that even in a country like China which has mandated that you must win a lottery before you may have a child, suicide is still left as a do-it-yourself procedure. As such, suicide attempts usually fail, and are often unnecessarily unpleasant. Sometimes people even inadvertently take someone else with them.

People tend to not want others to commit suicide, and the argument is often heard that people change their minds about committing suicide during their attempt. By legalizing suicide and making a procedure available, people can be screened to make sure that this is really what they want to do, and those who actually just need mental health treatment or some other form of social service can be redirected. This would also eliminate the dangers involved in the "cry for help" suicide attempts, and reduce the trauma to those who felt close to those who committed suicide. If people knew that everything that could have been done was done, and this truly was the person's choice, then it would be easier to let them go.

Why not just let a person sign up for suicide, be screened and treated if required, and then choose from a selection of suicide methods with a description of how one dies of that method, and liklihood of success? There could then be an extermination fail-safe in case the chosen method did not work.

Especially as overpopulation threatens the lives of all of the people and many other species on the planet, what could possibly be so repugnant about this idea?
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BMcGilly07
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Re: Legalizing Suicide/Assisted Suicide

Post by BMcGilly07 »

I think anyone who doesn't have a terminal disease, is not physically handicapped or who isn't elderly would default to the mentally ill category.

Far better would it be to institute a course in basic logic to be repeated every couple of years until mastered. Then a basic class in causation, to be followed by a class in philosophy.

We don't need to kill people, we need to kill ignorance.
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Robert
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Re: Legalizing Suicide/Assisted Suicide

Post by Robert »

In principle I'm ok with the idea, but the real difficulty is in determining what criteria you would have to fufill before you're deemed an eligible candidate. Beyond terminal illness and/or vegetative-like states etc, assisted suicide for an individual who is physically in ok shape but desires termination of their life for reasons arrived at through their own rationale will be a tough idea to sell. The causes that can provoke someone to reach this kind of decision are literally infinite, it could be argued that there's an infinite amount of causes that could make them change their mind.

The rising population isn't really a strong enough argument, the problem of population needs to be handled by limiting who are eligible to have children. Any dumb idiot can have kids, it shouldn't be that easy.

Like Doug Stanhope (half) joked, life isn't for everyone.
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Gretchen
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Re: Legalizing Suicide/Assisted Suicide

Post by Gretchen »

Elizabeth Isabelle wrote: Why not just let a person sign up for suicide, be screened and treated if required, and then choose from a selection of suicide methods with a description of how one dies of that method, and liklihood of success? There could then be an extermination fail-safe in case the chosen method did not work.
I am opposed to the idea of suicide as a population control mechanism, as I tend to agree with Bryan about the suicide candidates' mental health being at issue. Birth control measures seem far more pallitable and morally sound. But for the sake of argument, who would screen the screener? How would you keep those screeners from deciding to end everyone's life who signed up whether or not they are mentally unstable? It would be likened to a mini-Hitler, who would think that the less inferior persons inhabiting this earth the better.
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Ryan Rudolph
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Re: Legalizing Suicide/Assisted Suicide

Post by Ryan Rudolph »

I think there are certain zones in society, which can be targeted for assisted suicide. Zones such as mental institutions, terminal wards in hospitals, and prisoners guilty of repeated offenses of violent crimes are a few groups that could be put down like old yeller in every society.

Its a good start, its like trimming the outward branches of a tree when they get too long, and start growing into the younger branches, thereby affecting the overall health of the tree.
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BMcGilly07
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Re: Legalizing Suicide/Assisted Suicide

Post by BMcGilly07 »

Ryan Rudolph wrote:Its a good start, its like trimming the outward branches of a tree when they get too long, and start growing into the younger branches, thereby affecting the overall health of the tree.
I would prefer to have a wise society build on my earlier suggestion. As per suicide for wards of the state and such, have their care be the sole burden of their relatives (both prisoners and the physically/mentally degenerative). If the person in question excels at the studies listed in my first post, then state care or aid would be possible. If not, then it would be the decision of those relatives wisest, or barring that, a wise state officiated panel that would decide their fate.

Those who could not advance in wisdom after a certain point would be unable to obtain parenting candidacy, and those degenerates who are wholly unable to advance philosophically (both wards of family and state as well as self-sustaining) would be sterilized after a point.

People have branded eugenics as taboo, and yet choosing a mate to father children is eugenics in motion. Ideally the state would have nothing whatsoever to do with it, and it shouldn't until standards of wisdom- and wisdom itself, can be accepted as a necessary means for survival and more importantly have its place as a value to be esteemed beyond all others; only then would there be any hope the heads of any state would be wise enough to make these decisions.
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Re: Legalizing Suicide/Assisted Suicide

Post by |read| »

Suicide is useless for population control because it is too uncommon to make any difference. The death rate due to suicide is on the order of 1/100 of a percent, and making it easier will not increase this enough to be meaningful. Further, I cannot think of any practical (let alone ethical) means of population control which relies on increasing the death rate.

That said, I think suicide and assisted suicide should be legal for all adults regardless of situation or mental health. Sometimes treatment may be preferable, but it should never be mandatory; individuals should have the freedom to choose whether they live or die. I say this as someone who has attempted suicide.

Ironic as this may sound, suicide is risky. In this case, the risk is not death (which is the goal.) The risk is greater suffering than you felt previously, which may go on indefinitely, without the possibility of release. A botched suicide attempt can leave you brain-damaged, just as miserable as before (if not more so), but unable to understand your situation or do anything about it. A suicide attempt can leave you paralyzed, undoubtedly more miserable than before, painfully aware of your situation, and unable to do anything about it. Or both.

There are painless, reliable ways of ending a life, and when assisted by a profession, they're trivial to perform. Unfortunately, they're also illegal in most of the world. Consider the botched suicide situations I mentioned above; an already suicidal person is now in a whole new world of agony. Any sane, compassionate individual would euthanize this person. But today, the person would be kept alive for years, perhaps decades. Other people have a legal obligation (and they consider it an ethical obligation) to keep the individual alive and in perpetual suffering for as long as possible. I think this is tantamount to torture. The really ironic part is those who are supposed to care about the individual - doctors, friends, family members - become their torturers.

Society's aversion to suicide goes beyond the rational and into the insane - into the criminally insane, when you consider the situations I mentioned above. The mental illness of the suicidal person pales in comparison. I do not believe society is more qualified than the individual to decide when they should live and when they should die.
Elizabeth Isabelle
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Re: Legalizing Suicide/Assisted Suicide

Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

BMcGilly07 wrote:As per suicide for wards of the state and such, have their care be the sole burden of their relatives (both prisoners and the physically/mentally degenerative).
What if their relatives do not want them? Becoming a burden on friends is a quick way to lose friends as well, and if certain people feel morally obligated to take in someone like that anyway, that person is likely to become so drained as to become mentally ill themselves.
Gretchen wrote:How would you keep those screeners from deciding to end everyone's life who signed up whether or not they are mentally unstable?
Ah, I did not say that those who are mentally unstable would not be allowed to commit suicide. Only that treatment choices would be presented to them. Living in terminal mental torture is as bad as any other terminal condition, but it lasts longer.
|read| wrote:Society's aversion to suicide goes beyond the rational and into the insane - into the criminally insane, when you consider the situations I mentioned above. The mental illness of the suicidal person pales in comparison.
Exactly.
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Re: Legalizing Suicide/Assisted Suicide

Post by |read| »

The other problem with criminalizing suicide is it forbids people from seeking help, if they want to keep their freedom. If you tell a therapist you're planning to commit suicide, they are legally required to report you to the police, who can take you into custody and commit you to a hospital against your will. If you don't want this, you cannot talk to a therapist about it.

The problem is similar to criminalizing drug addiction - you can be imprisoned for seeking help.
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Ryan Rudolph
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Re: Legalizing Suicide/Assisted Suicide

Post by Ryan Rudolph »

BMcGilly,
have their care be the sole burden of their relatives (both prisoners and the physically/mentally degenerative).
I don't think your suggestion is a realistic solution. Do you really think that relatives around the world could feasibly take the place of the role of 24 hour nursing care that these people need? No, they are a burden on society, a burden that no wise person would ever want to deal with if put in that situation. Would you?

Would you sacrifice your days caring for someone who has the very little consciousness? I know I wouldn't, a waste of time and a waste of resources.

Any life that is deemed by medical science as not worth living, and an overwhelming burden on the society should be ended humanely.

In my province, we have a huge problem with hospital bed shortages, mostly caused by beds being continually occupied by insane people and terminally ill people. The mental wards are full so the hospital is forced to take people until some crazies die of natural causes... dumb system, bring out the lethal injections I say.
Elizabeth Isabelle
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Re: Legalizing Suicide/Assisted Suicide

Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

Ryan Rudolph wrote:Any life that is deemed by medical science as not worth living, and an overwhelming burden on the society should be ended humanely.
That takes it a bit too far. Hitler's medical science team was a bit too enthusiastic about whose life was not worth living. The person whose life it is should have say-so on whether or not it is worth living - if they are capable of communicating their wishes.
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Carl G
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Re: Legalizing Suicide/Assisted Suicide

Post by Carl G »

deemed by medical science as not worth living
Wow, Ryan.
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BMcGilly07
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Re: Legalizing Suicide/Assisted Suicide

Post by BMcGilly07 »

Ryan, Elizabeth,

I should have written my implication by making degenerates the wards of their family's: it gives the family a chance to practice compassion, and the alternative if the family does not wish to do so is death. If we make the opportunity to practice the paramitas socially valued very highly, then families would be more apt to provide the care. Where there's a will there's a way. Instead of paying these families, the state could offer heavy discounts on taxes and such. Otherwise you may end up with something similar to the inner city welfare problem of women pumping out babies just to collect more checks.
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Ryan Rudolph
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Re: Legalizing Suicide/Assisted Suicide

Post by Ryan Rudolph »

Elizabeth,
That takes it a bit too far. Hitler's medical science team was a bit too enthusiastic about whose life was not worth living. The person whose life it is should have say-so on whether or not it is worth living - if they are capable of communicating their wishes.
Carl,
wow, Ryan.
It isn't overly difficult to determine if someone is either clinically insane, in a zombie vegetative state, or a menace to society. Serial Killers are put to death, so why not Alzheimer's patients? why not people who wander the hospital hallways night after night, getting lost, and forgetting who they are? why not the people who when you try to help them, they attempt to bite you, run away, while rambling illogical vulgarities?

It is humane to kill people like this, they are at the lowest spectrum of consciousness. And we don't rely on Hitler's science, we rely on modern science, we rely on the opinions of doctors and psychologists. And btw, in many cases, relatives abandon insane family members altogether who have been institutionalized, so BMcgilly idea is not realistic.

you have to ask the question: how much do you garish the wages of the people who can truly live life to pay for health services to keep those alive who can no longer live life?

It is like leeching the life force from the living to pay for the services of the living death.
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Carl G
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Re: Legalizing Suicide/Assisted Suicide

Post by Carl G »

Ryan Rudolph wrote:It isn't overly difficult to determine if someone is either clinically insane, in a zombie vegetative state, or a menace to society. Serial Killers are put to death, so why not Alzheimer's patients?
Great, capital punishment for Alzheimer's patients. What progress.

I thought we were talking about assisted suicide, not a State Euthanasia Program.
why not people who wander the hospital hallways night after night,
What about those who wander on only some nights. Where do we draw the line? Twenty out of thirty nights? Twenty-two and they're outta here?
getting lost, and forgetting who they are? why not the people who when you try to help them, they attempt to bite you, run away, while rambling illogical vulgarities?
Now, I don't think it's fair to bring up Alex Jacob here.

Just a little euthanasia humor.

Like, what do you call a paraplegic floating in the pool? Bob.
It is humane to kill people like this, they are at the lowest spectrum of consciousness.
It is humane to kill people who have low consciousness? How is that?

Your real reason, given below, is that you think they are a burden on society.
And we don't rely on Hitler's science, we rely on modern science,
These are one and the same.
we rely on the opinions of doctors and psychologists.
As did Hitler. In both cases informed -- via law, not by objective criteria -- by the State.
you have to ask the question: how much do you garish the wages of the people who can truly live life to pay for health services
Right, instead of lining the pockets of the super-rich further, like they ought to. Oh, wait, we do that either way. God bless the modern health care industry.
to keep those alive who can no longer live life?
You mean who can no longer live to your specifications.
It is like leeching the life force from the living to pay for the services of the living death.
Right, let's judge and then kill those poor unfortunates, so we can keep our masters in the lifestyle they are accustomed to, our masters (those ghoulish living dead who leech our life force. Er, what?)
Good Citizen Carl
Elizabeth Isabelle
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Re: Legalizing Suicide/Assisted Suicide

Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

Perhaps Ryan is demonstrating an argument against legalizing assisted suicide:

Ryan: Here, granny, granny granny. You want to commit suicide, don't you?

Granny: What?

Ryan: You're the living dead. You're leaching the life out of the truly living.

Granny: (crying)

Ryan: You'd like to die now, wouldn't you?

Granny: Yes.

Ryan: Sending another one in. Do I get a bonus for getting the most recruits?
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Ryan Rudolph
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Re: Legalizing Suicide/Assisted Suicide

Post by Ryan Rudolph »

Carl and Elizabeth,

Euthanasia and Assisted suicide are very close to one in the same. Why? because Alzheimer's patients don't realize the state they're in, they are not going to ask for help to end their own lives because they cannot remember what their life is, or was, or what it could be. And it doesn't have to be a cruel procedure, appealing to people's base emotions such as fear. If a group of professionals reach the conclusion that a person's life has reached a sad irreversible state, one could give them a pill that basically puts them asleep, and kills them.

Although, what is interesting is how many emotions you both revert to when trying to attack my position - very telling.

death is very natural and necessary, but sometimes nature is slow, nature carryies things out too long, and then with modern medication, it makes life carry on even longer, you basically have zombies and crazies waiting to die... that is the sad part, and then you have emotionalists and other illogical groups such as Christians demanding that we keep them alive until the very end because thou shall not kill ever...

People's sympathy for the living is what can make them so cruel sometimes...
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Carl G
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Re: Legalizing Suicide/Assisted Suicide

Post by Carl G »

Ryan Rudolph wrote:what is interesting is how many emotions you both revert to when trying to attack my position - very telling.
Suppose you tell me some of the emotions I "revert to" when "trying to attack" your position. And what it is "telling" you. I would appreciate the education/ entertainment.
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Shahrazad
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Re: Legalizing Suicide/Assisted Suicide

Post by Shahrazad »

Ryan,

If people with a lower consciousness level should be killed, then why don't we kill all animal species? Wouldn't it be the humane thing to do by your standard?
Elizabeth Isabelle
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Re: Legalizing Suicide/Assisted Suicide

Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

Ryan Rudolph wrote:Euthanasia and Assisted suicide are very close to one in the same.
and yet, there is a distinct boundary between the two. Indeed, philosophically, all things are very close to one and the same, yet when discussing parts of the Infinite, we draw boundaries.

Let me save you some time in whittling down to what Carl refers to as pablum... Currently, courts and ethics committes do make decisions about discontinuing life support when there isn't a family to speak for the person who can no longer speak for themselves, or if there is disagreement amongst family members about what to do. If there is no prognosis for recovery and an EEG shows that nobody's home, life support is discontinued, and the person is left to die. Usually this happens fairly quickly, especially if the body was dependant on machines to breathe for them; but in cases such as Terry Schiavo where feeding tubes were all that was needed, death can take longer.

I can see where in such a case that the decision has been made to remove feeding tubes and there is no further debate regarding said tubes, it would be more efficient to euthanize the person - but not more humane. Since there isn't a person in the body to know whether or not it is starving to death, trying to make death more comfortable is a moot point. If anything, it could be psychologically damaging to the person administering euthenasia to the body whose person who did not ask to be killed (because on the outside, it may still look like some kind of person - though not the person it once was). Since it is not an act that would in any way benefit the life of the one being exterminated, and the only benefit is to those left behind, it is not a humane act.

If there were to be no damage to the person euthanizing the body that was slated to die by a more protracted means anyway, assuring that no harm would be done by this action, I would agree that this is where the line should be drawn (which, for a philosophy board, is a whole lot better of a suggestion than to let medical experts decide). The thing is that there is no way to predict that the extermination of another human body would not cause some form of psychological harm to the practicioner. On the contrary, even serial killers show a change by each kill.

Granted, this could be done with little difference to how the death penalty is implemented, but that practice is being phased out.

Especially when one is discussing legalizing suicide and assisted suicide, a very determined line needs to be drawn between assisted suicide and euthenasia. That line has to be drawn from the intent and desires of the individual whose life is being weighed, and the humane treatment of all involved.

edit - grammar
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BMcGilly07
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Re: Legalizing Suicide/Assisted Suicide

Post by BMcGilly07 »

Shahrazad wrote:Ryan,

If people with a lower consciousness level should be killed, then why don't we kill all animal species? Wouldn't it be the humane thing to do by your standard?
Perhaps killing people (not animals) of a lower consciousness isn't the right way, but associating unconsciousness far and wide with being unworthy of life would go a far way towards creating the contrast for greatness in individuals as in the case of the slave's role in antiquity (greece, rome).

Hence the use of the caste system, if it were truly founded on advancement of consciousness it serves the role of opening a niche in society for the brahminical wiseman.

Of course this is what buddhism abolished, because the cure isn't really to be found in society at all, is it?
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Shahrazad
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Re: Legalizing Suicide/Assisted Suicide

Post by Shahrazad »

Eliza,
Since there isn't a person in the body to know whether or not it is starving to death, trying to make death more comfortable is a moot point.
What? You wouldn't mind someone suffering because their consciousness level is low? Do you feel the same way about the way we kill animals? You don't think we should kill them in a humane way?
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Trevor Salyzyn
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Re: Legalizing Suicide/Assisted Suicide

Post by Trevor Salyzyn »

BMcGilly07 wrote:Perhaps killing people (not animals) of a lower consciousness isn't the right way, but associating unconsciousness far and wide with being unworthy of life would go a far way towards creating the contrast for greatness in individuals as in the case of the slave's role in antiquity (greece, rome).
I'm sure this would be about as effective as prescribing antibiotics for every single malady.
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Elizabeth Isabelle
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Re: Legalizing Suicide/Assisted Suicide

Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

Shahrazad wrote:Eliza,
Since there isn't a person in the body to know whether or not it is starving to death, trying to make death more comfortable is a moot point.
What? You wouldn't mind someone suffering because their consciousness level is low? Do you feel the same way about the way we kill animals? You don't think we should kill them in a humane way?
You totally missed what I said Sher. I wasn't talking about people with low consciousness; I was talking about people with no consciousness - in the medical, not just philosophical sense. Suffering could not be reduced because there wasn't any suffering there to reduce.
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Shahrazad
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Re: Legalizing Suicide/Assisted Suicide

Post by Shahrazad »

You totally missed what I said Sher. I wasn't talking about people with low consciousness; I was talking about people with no consciousness - in the medical, not just philosophical sense. Suffering could not be reduced because there wasn't any suffering there to reduce.
It's hard to define what we mean by consciousness. But a person would have to be in a state of coma or 100% brain dead to not feel physical pain. Terry Schiavo, for instance, was awake, and I'm pretty sure she could feel pain. You don't think she should have been killed in a painless way?

Eliza, would you say that a chicken is conscious, in what you are calling the "medical sense"?
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