I need confirmation...

[Ignius]

Several months ago, I began to notice something strange happening during social interactions. I'm not exactly sure as to what this is or whether it isn't simply my mind playing tricks on me. Basically, it's this: when people communicate with one another, they seem to be saying two things at the same time. It's the weirdest thing, but I keep noticing it (not always, though), and it makes me think like I've discovered a way of understanding what the other person is actually thinking, even though they may try to hide it. So, what is this - is there a name for it? It's definitely real and not my imagination, but there's more to it, and because I don't fully understand it, I'm making mistakes with the explanation of it. Anyway, here's another way of looking at it: when a person talks about a topic, there's a certain context that takes place, and so, they're saying one thing, but they're also saying something else. Next, it also seems that, when 2 people are talking, each person is communicating with themselves and with the other... DAMMIT!!!... I don't know what this is... If you have some idea of what I mean, then would you please shed some light on this. Thanks.

....................................................................................................................
Here's a very simple example of it:

2 people. 1 says to the other: "how are you." The other responds: "good." And they continue to talk, and the complexity increases.
...........................................................................................................................

Now, there are two ways to understand that example: on the one hand, 1 asks how the other is feeling, and the other, responds (common understanding), but on the other hand (the thing that I've recently discovered) is that the one who asks the question is sort of programming themselves - is sort of like the other person is an extension of themselves, so when they ask how the other is doing, by responding "good", the one who asked is... "feels good". It's almost like one is talking for the other and the conversation works for both in some weird way. Damn. Every time I try to understand this, or explain it, I catch myself thinking about nonsense - though, there really is something more to this than that!

If you can make some sense out of this, or if you've discovered something similar, please help me out. Thanks.

[Ignius]

I'm sorry, but I just don't know how to explain it. Obviously, I'm using simplistic examples in order to better understand it, but I've also used this in complicated situations, and it works, but it's largely a subconscious phenomenon. Here, I'll try to explain it again: it's as if you're programming the other person - and if you do it well, they won't notice it. And if all goes according to plan, you maybe able to get the other person to reveal things subconsciously while they're consciously talking about something entirely different.

So, what is this?

[rebecca702]

Ignius,

I've heard it said that when 2 people are having an interaction, there are actually 6 people present. There's you, there's your idea of you and how you think you're presenting yourself, then there's your idea of what the other person is thinking of you. And the same for the other person.

I don't know if that's helpful.

[Ignius]

That's not what I meant.

Look, if I don't figure this out, then I'm always going to be controlled (to some degree) by people. I don't want that, nobody wants that.

So, is this the bottom line: either I figure it out on my own, or I'm always going to be kept in the dark? Why?

Here's another example...

A couple of months ago, I was talking to a lawyer, and here's the bit that I found most interesting, because it confirmed that it's not just me that's experiencing this:

*talking about something relevant to the following*

I said: "I get paranoid all the time"
He looked around, with a shocked expression, and exclaimed: "don't say things like that"
Me: "why not, people always talk about crap"
Him: "that's fine"

Now tell me, do you see it? It's unmistakable - the guy thought that I somehow knew that he was paranoid. He must have thought that I could read his mind or something like that. WHY?

I've been noticing stuff like this all the time. Seriously, there's something to this... Isn't there?

[Shahrazad]

Ignius,

Basically, it's this: when people communicate with one another, they seem to be saying two things at the same time. It's the weirdest thing, but I keep noticing it (not always, though), and it makes me think like I've discovered a way of understanding what the other person is actually thinking, even though they may try to hide it. So, what is this - is there a name for it?

I think this is normal. When people talk to you, they communicate much more than just the words they say. The tone of voice and the facial and body expressions are about 50% of the message. So if I say "I hate you", and my tone of voice is affectionate, you get two conflicting messages, but your mind quickly interprets it as "I like you, but you're being mean, and I probably should be angry at you right now."

I'll give you another example. Let's say I tell my kid, "you need to clean up the dog pee". She replies "yeah, yeah, yeah". Her tone of voice tells me she's not going to do it. So, the sum of the two messages results in, "I won't do it, but right now, I just want you to leave me alone."

So, the exact words are only 50% of the message. We humans are experts at translating these mixed messages. However, if the person receiving the message is autistic, the body language is not interpreted as part of the message, and miscommunication occurs.

[brokenhead]

However, if the person receiving the message is autistic, the body language is not interpreted as part of the message, and miscommunication occurs.

And some autistic people may not be receiving the verbal part, either. Many severely autistic people cannot communicate verbally themselves, so whether or not they have understood a verbal communication will remain unclear.

Also, if you think about the way we communicate verbally on a forum, you notice right away the lack of that other portion of the message which you mention. This forces one to try to be more precise with the language, at least it makes me want to be as precise as I can.

It is interesting to see this difference in a clearcut example. I recall that one time I was attending a video conference. It was a regularly scheduled meeting, so I was accustomed to interacting with the folks at the remote location this way. Suddenly, the video portion went out, and the remainder of the meeting was just the equivalent of a teleconference. The difference in my own certainty of what was being communicated was noticeable, if not great.

I knew my colleagues from the remote site quite well via telephone and video conference. But later when I met them for the first time in person, it was a noticeable difference, although difficult to put into words.

For this reason, I have always been uncomfortable speaking over the phone, compared to the ease I feel speaking to someone in person. More than my own understanding, I am concerned about the other person's comprehension of what I am saying. You can often see in a person's expression if you are registering clearly. Many people have not developed the phone skills necessary to convey verbally their comprehension (or lack thereof) of what is being said to them.

But some people are more comfortable over the phone than in person. I guess it is an individual thing. I am just more convinced a meeting of the minds has occurred if they have met in person.

[Shahrazad]

broken,

And some autistic people may not be receiving the verbal part, either. Many severely autistic people cannot communicate verbally themselves, so whether or not they have understood a verbal communication will remain unclear.

Right. I was really speaking of moderately or slightly autistic people. I think my daughter falls into that category. I'm not sure she is constantly reading body language the way most of us do.

And then, there are people who aren't formally autistic, but might as well be, as they are emotionally challenged. They also often misunderstand the message.

Also, if you think about the way we communicate verbally on a forum, you notice right away the lack of that other portion of the message which you mention. This forces one to try to be more precise with the language, at least it makes me want to be as precise as I can.

I think most of us don't always try to be precise in the verbal part, even here. For example, we use sarcasm, or we joke, and we don't warn the reader that that is what we are doing, because it would kinda ruin the fun. Usually, the sarcasm will be understood by those who know the messenger well. But the newbies might not get it.

It is interesting to see this difference in a clearcut example. I recall that one time I was attending a video conference. It was a regularly scheduled meeting, so I was accustomed to interacting with the folks at the remote location this way. Suddenly, the video portion went out, and the remainder of the meeting was just the equivalent of a teleconference. The difference in my own certainty of what was being communicated was noticeable, if not great.

I have also experienced this when I am working as a conference interpreter. I sit inside a booth, and I can see the speaker from there. But sometimes someone stands between me and the speaker, such that I can't see him, and it really pisses me off because I rely on facial expressions to better understand the message.

I knew my colleagues from the remote site quite well via telephone and video conference. But later when I met them for the first time in person, it was a noticeable difference, although difficult to put into words.

Imagine meeting in person someone you have known a long time, but only by reading their pixel patterns (like you are doing right now). They hardly ever are what you imagined them to be.

[volta]

Been lurking here and decided to join in the conversation, so my first post is on this interesting subject. The older I get, the more I realize how much is being said with our words (never mind all the visual clues, and verbal tones etc... which others have mentioned). It took me until my late thirties (slow learner, maybe!) to realize how often people say things which are precisely the opposite to what they know to be true. I'm not talking about typical lies here. I'm talking about how people will say things which are the opposite of how things are in order to convince (or more accurately 'delude') themselves (maybe in a non-deliberate unconscious way). Once I realized this, it opened up a whole new complexity to human communication, because I'm never sure if people are saying the words to convince me or to convince themselves? For example, when my brother's wife was pregnant with their first child, he told me how he would never be one of those "doting" father's whose entire life revolved around their children in an almost obsessive manner. Guess what kind of father he turned out to be? Another example is when I moved into a new house, and one of the first things the neighbor said to me was "let me know if my dog barking bothers you". I initially thought what a kind considerate person he was until the next morning his barking dog woke me up at 6AM. When I did finally calmly raise the matter with him, he immediately lost his temper and that dog woke me up every morning and barked almost all day until I moved. The conclusion I came to is that there is a whole separate conversation that is going on in people's heads when they communicate verbally to others. Their private guilt, fears, desires, ego... are all carefully hidden amongst the words. Part of the conversation is "with themselves" but the other person is not privy to this, and I personally find it hard to decipher what verbal information is useful or accurate to me. It is why people will sometimes chose their words very carefully too, because they are wording the thoughts in a certain precise way. Recently President Obama asked reporters on Air Force One "Hey guys, what do you think of my -- this spiffy ride here?". Notice he hesitated to call Air Force One "his" and tried to change the possessive tone to a more general one. Anyway, I'm not sure if this is what the original post was referring to exactly, but I sympathize with the experience Ignius describes about people saying multiple things at the same time.

[Trevor Salyzyn]

Isaac Asimov thought of making a science out of this sort of thing in the Foundation series, with appropriate "psychohistorical" technology. Why we haven't made a science of it is approximately the same reason we don't have faster than light travel. Although, if you try to explain to a modern sociologist, historian, or political theorist that the social sciences are relatively (utterly) useless, they will respond with hostility. If you try to explain to a natural scientist that the social science methods fail to do anything, their level of acceptance depends on what country they're from. A Chinaman is more likely to take kindly to a real social science than an American, for ethical reasons.

I'm afraid parlour-trick hypnotism is as far as this science will get.

[Shahrazad]

Hello Volta. Welcome to Genius Forum.

Another example is when I moved into a new house, and one of the first things the neighbor said to me was "let me know if my dog barking bothers you".

This kind of thing has happened to me. It could be that the reason he asked you that question so nicely, before you knew how much of a barker his dog was, was hoping you would say something like "oh, don't worry, I'm not easily bothered by barking dogs", in an attempt to be nice, and after that, it would be embarrassing for you to come back to him and say the exact opposite.

The conclusion I came to is that there is a whole separate conversation that is going on in people's heads when they communicate verbally to others. Their private guilt, fears, desires, ego... are all carefully hidden amongst the words. Part of the conversation is "with themselves" but the other person is not privy to this, and I personally find it hard to decipher what verbal information is useful or accurate to me.

Good point.

[Tomas]

.


-volta-
Another example is when I moved into a new house, and one of the first things the neighbor said to me was "let me know if my dog barking bothers you".

-tomas-
A dog is man's best friend (except for his penis), so get to know the dog first. Ask if it's alright to give the dog some sort of food treat, or whatever. Remember, the dog is merely an extension of the owner's personality/alter ego as is the chain-link fence.


-volta-
I initially thought what a kind considerate person he was until the next morning his barking dog woke me up at 6AM.

-tomas-
Call the cops if it's 6AM, check local ordinances for sound levels between certain hours.

Get out the trusty lawn mower and start 'er up when local ordinance says it's OK, then let'er go at full throttle 'till sunset (the twilight's last gleaming).


-volta-
When I did finally calmly raise the matter with him, he immediately lost his temper and that dog woke me up every morning and barked almost all day until I moved.

-tomas-
You probably waited too many days to respond. The next best thing then is to sneak (stealthily creep) over well before sunrise and unhinge the gate perhaps the dog will escape and run loose around the neighborhood barking up all the neighbors tree. Or if the hound trespasses over on your territory, well, there's always "self defense" and out comes the Uzi.

If that doesn't work, erect an 8-foot fence to buffer the mutt's barking.

Still not happy? Consider some meatballs laced with antifreeze...


-volta-
The conclusion I came to is that there is a whole separate conversation that is going on in people's heads when they communicate verbally to others.

-tomas-
Make friends with the neighbor's dog on your own terms. The hell with the owner - remember what Ricky Nelson said in his Garden Party song .. You can't please everybody, so you got to please yourself.

PS - Welcome aboard, volta. May the force be with you..

[Dan Rowden]

I don't know that this is all that complicated. What comes out of people's mouths is very seldom the same as what they're privately thinking. This is because, for one thing, social etiquette has to be taken into account. If people just spewed out what's really in their minds all hell would break loose, given the egotists that we are.

Then there's the fact that people aren't always assured of the verity or meaning or coherence and so forth of what is actually in their heads, so they express something else, something less, something that makes at least some sense. It's just the way the mind works. I don't see any point in focusing on it too much, and certainly not getting all paranoiac about it.

[Shahrazad]

Dan,

Most of us seem to be in agreement that this kind of thing is normal enough.

I don't see any point in focusing on it too much, and certainly not getting all paranoiac about it.

If you tell Ignius not to get paranoiac about this, he'll just find something else to get paranoiac about. He's in one of those stages.

[Ignius]

No, no, no... I know all about communicating through body language, facial expressions, tone of voice, etc... That isn't what this is about, and why the heck do you always bring up autism with me? I'm not autistic!


It's like a coded message + the stuff that's actually being said. I need to know whether it would be worthwhile to pursue this... Or whether it would just be a mindfuck that would screw me up.

Next, my psychologist said that I was being manipulative. All I did was agree with what she said... Meaning (this is what actually happened if I use this discovery...) -> she admitted that she was the one that was being manipulative. In other words, she saw herself in me.

It works, but for some reason, you're just not getting it - perhaps, you're not there yet? (Heh)

[Shahrazad]

ignius,

That isn't what this is about, and why the heck do you always bring up autistim with me? I'm not autistic!

Relax, it's nothing personal. I'm the one who is a little bit autistic, and has a mildly autistic child, so this issue comes to my mind often.

[Dan Rowden]

No, no, no... I know all about communicating through body language, facial expressions, tone of voice, etc... That isn't what this is about, and why the heck do you always bring up autism with me? I'm not autistic!

It's like a coded message + the stuff that's actually being said. I need to know whether it would be worthwhile to pursue this... Or whether it would just be a mindfuck that would screw me up.

Unless you can explain it better, it sounds like simple paranoia to me. Just take what people say at face value.

[volta]

Hello Volta. Welcome to Genius Forum.

Thanks

Another example is when I moved into a new house, and one of the first things the neighbor said to me was "let me know if my dog barking bothers you".

This kind of thing has happened to me. It could be that the reason he asked you that question so nicely, before you knew how much of a barker his dog was, was hoping you would say something like "oh, don't worry, I'm not easily bothered by barking dogs", in an attempt to be nice, and after that, it would be embarrassing for you to come back to him and say the exact opposite.

Interesting idea and I think you're right. The sad part is that I don't think this particular gentleman had the mental prowess to concoct such a scheme, which suggests that our complex form of communication is hard-wired into us and unavoidable. If I take the time to examine my first post, I could ask questions like "why did I write the self-depreciating comment about me being a slow learner?". Probably to elicit some sort of reaction from readers, ie. so as not to sound arrogant or something. So I was myself unconsciously manipulating you all (sorry).

I think it's a very complicated thing actually. If we really think about it, this issue of the multiple complex messages in human communication is the most important one there is because all the ideas human beings have ever thought up are being communicated in this way (verbally or in writing - which might be better or worse). Every topic discussed in this forum is filtered through this human brain system governed by these private qualities (fear, ego,...) we each hold inside our heads. I really don't see how we can take what people say entirely at "face value". You can't know what I am really trying to communicate, and I can't really know what any of you are trying to communicate because we are all, at all times, being governed by these private personal qualities to varying degrees. It's not enough for us to abandon discussions altogether, but it's worth factoring this in to debates. For example, some of you are probably influenced by the fact that I am posting on this forum for the first time. This is no fault of mine (unless I fail to join in at all), but by being aware of it I can see the different ways you might be affected by a newcomer in your midsts- some welcoming, others.... not so much. You may well react differently to what I write then you would to a regular.

Once you've seen behind the curtain it's hard to go back to how it was before. It seems impossible to decipher all the hidden layers to human communication which is maybe why it is being somewhat dismissed by some. Certainly paranoia is not helpful, but if you follow this road to the end of the path, it is an understandable conclusion. A little paranoia could be healthy because people are out for themselves.

Tomas. thanks - I wish I'd had that advice 6 years ago. Now I live on 10 acres - if I hear ever any dogs they are off in the distance. I never knew about the dog/penis thing. I have a cat that weighs about ten pounds. Does that mean what I think it does?

[Ignius]

Once you've seen behind the curtain it's hard to go back to how it was before.

That caught my interest. Can you please elaborate? What do you mean exactly and how can you be sure that it isn't a fabrication of your imagination?

I do agree that it is highly complicated and a subconscious thing, but isn't it worthwhile to try and understand it on a conscious level. During a talk with my father, I began to say 2 things at the same time, and the longer I continued this, the more confused he got - by the end, he was mad at me, accusing me of... something. What happened? I can make assumptions and thing about it, but the truth is that I don't really know, and so, I'm hoping that someone else knows. By the way, I found a term that has something to do with this: it's called "double speak." Perhaps that's it, perhaps not.

I'd really hate to start messing with something that would only screw me up. It's sorta similar to jumping to a conclusion and then trying to find evidence for it. Finding evidence isn't difficult, especially with a conclusion in mind. The real question is: can you trust the evidence...

Btw, this may have some relevance to what's being discussed: very close best friends will often get their periods at the same time. Guess why? This is why people play games and hide.

I guess what I'm trying to do is to understand the subconscious on a conscious level. Understand parts, so that I have more control. Who doesn't want that.

Perhaps it's because I'm depressed and trying to find meaning apart from happiness.

Naaaah...

[Ignius]

Something tells me that it's a trap.

Obviously, it is, but then it wouldn't be about escaping, rather it would be about concurring. The trap is there because it is that which is blocking one from understanding. If the trap catches you, then I would say that I'm not understanding what you're saying in the way that you meant it to be understood. Then again, you may be wrong.

That's why the trap it there.

What's the purpose in avoiding the trap? I say: take it apart!

[Ignius]

That's hilarious.

[Ignius]

Relax, it's nothing personal. I'm the one who is a little bit autistic, and has a mildly autistic child, so this issue comes to my mind often.

Ehhhh... I think that everyone's a bit autistic. I would say that it's also a compliment! :)

[Tomas]

.


-volta-
It could be Tomas. thanks - I wish I'd had that advice 6 years ago. Now I live on 10 acres - if I hear ever any dogs they are off in the distance.

-tomas-
I don't mind pets, but we haven't any. We have had six children come and go, now we have an 11-year-old left, then we'll have one another to tend with.


-volta-
I never knew about the dog/penis thing. I have a cat that weighs about ten pounds. Does that mean what I think it does?

-tomas-
My mistake. I should've been clearer.

The cat? Guess it depends whether it is a pussy or a tom cat...

[Ignius]

It's manipulation, isn't it? I'd still like to understand it. Does that make me an a**-wipe?

What's double-bind, btw?

[DHodges]

redacted

[skipair]

It's like a coded message + the stuff that's actually being said. I need to know whether it would be worthwhile to pursue this... Or whether it would just be a mindfuck that would screw me up.

In my experience, in many ways at least, guys speak plainly and there isn't too much to read into. Women, however, mix contexts all the time, and in effect speak in "code" both consciously and unconsciously. She will be able to have a conversation in public with her girlfriend that, if taken at face value, will be about something unthreatening to their social standing. But using metaphor and body language she will be talking about something completely different. This is especially true when their thoughts turn more sexual, or when she has motivations to uncover information without seeming like it.

Unless it is the most simple interaction, like buying a bottle of water, it's as if she can't help but live on multiple levels at the same time. As a result women are often good multi-taskers, but never spend enough energy on one level to deepen it. It also means that what they say is rarely what they mean.

Guys are harder to read into because their psychology is more complex. The mindfuck danger is only there if you take a particular speculation about what's being said personally - as in supportive or unsupportive. It has nothing to do with you. It's also dangerous if you take the speculation as fact, because the real fact is you'll never know what a person is thinking for sure. Better not to worry about what anyone else is doing. You just do what you think is right.