God Does Not Exist - Question about that

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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David Quinn
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Re: God Does Not Exist - Question about that

Post by David Quinn »

Loki wrote:
David Quinn wrote:
Loki wrote:But what about blatantly separate objects, like the chair you're sitting on, and your keyboard? How is it that these two things are arbitrarily separate things?
Before I answer that, I'd like to hear your concept of what "separate" means. What does it mean for two things to be separate?
There are two conclusions which are necessary if one is to think of them as separate.

1) These two objects are comprised of a finite amount of matter.

2) These two objects have empty space (non-matter) in between them.
Each molecule within a chair is surrounded by space. Should a carbon-based molecule, say, situated at the very edge of what we call a "chair", be considered part of the chair or separate from it?

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Re: God Does Not Exist - Question about that

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David Quinn wrote:
Loki wrote: There are two conclusions which are necessary if one is to think of them as separate.

1) These two objects are comprised of a finite amount of matter.

2) These two objects have empty space (non-matter) in between them.
Each molecule within a chair is surrounded by space. Should a carbon-based molecule, say, situated at the very edge of what we call a "chair", be considered part of the chair or separate from it?
If the chair is made of non-carbon-based molecules, then a carbon based molecule at the edge of the chair should be considered separate from the chair.
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Re: God Does Not Exist - Question about that

Post by David Quinn »

Loki wrote:
brokenhead wrote:
Loki wrote:There are two conclusions which are necessary if one is to think of them as separate.

1) These two objects are comprised of a finite amount of matter.

2) These two objects have empty space (non-matter) in between them.
There is no such thing as empty space. A vacuum is a mental construct and does not exist in the phenomenal world.
Is it possible to realize this without science?
Only if empty space is demonstrated to be a contradiction in terms, akin to a square circle, or if it is clearly shown that it is a contrived mental construct with no counterpoint in the physical world, akin to the lines of longitude.

From the human race's current perspective, a vacuum is a contrived mental construct. It is something we have imagined by mentally abstracting everything away from a conceived region of space. The question is, does such a conception actually refer to a reality in the physical world? Or alternatively, does our mental concept of a vacuum involve a contradiction in terms?

Does anyone want to have a crack at that one?

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Re: God Does Not Exist - Question about that

Post by David Quinn »

Loki wrote:
David Quinn wrote:
Loki wrote: There are two conclusions which are necessary if one is to think of them as separate.

1) These two objects are comprised of a finite amount of matter.

2) These two objects have empty space (non-matter) in between them.
Each molecule within a chair is surrounded by space. Should a carbon-based molecule, say, situated at the very edge of what we call a "chair", be considered part of the chair or separate from it?
If the chair is made of non-carbon-based molecules, then a carbon based molecule at the edge of the chair should be considered separate from the chair.
Obviously, I was talking about a molecule of the chair itself.

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Re: God Does Not Exist - Question about that

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David Quinn wrote: Obviously, I was talking about a molecule of the chair itself.
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Sorry. Obviously a molecule of the chair should be considered part of the chair. Sorry if my previous answer was stupid, but your question was kind of stupid, with all due respect.
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Re: God Does Not Exist - Question about that

Post by David Quinn »

Loki wrote:
David Quinn wrote: Obviously, I was talking about a molecule of the chair itself.
Sorry. Obviously a molecule of the chair should be considered part of the chair. Sorry if my previous answer was stupid, but your question was kind of stupid, with all due respect.
Yet according to your criteria above, it is separate from the chair.

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Re: God Does Not Exist - Question about that

Post by Shahrazad »

Sorry if my previous answer was stupid, but your question was kind of stupid, with all due respect.
I don't think the question was stupid, Loki. The molecules that surround our bodies interact with said bodies and sometimes end up being part of it. Same thing with the chair.

How do you determine whether a given molecule is part of your body or not?
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Re: God Does Not Exist - Question about that

Post by David Quinn »

brokenhead wrote:
DQ wrote:The great wisdom of the sages is so free that it doesn't have to make requirements of anything.
And as such, free of any requirements made of it. It does not need to appear consistent and it does not have to answer any particular challenges.

Not so. At the very least, wisdom has to be logically consistent within itself and also consistent with everything that is experienced - or indeed with anything that could possibly be experienced.

That it doesn't require things to be a certain way comes from its insight that nothing really exists.

It is more useless than the most primitive of religions. A Kalahari bushman might pray to a rock when a thunderstorm approaches. It may afford him some comfort before he is soaked and then struck by lightning. Your philosophy would have delivered even less to him. It would merely have upbraided him for not being sage-like. At which time, he would have been soaked and struck by lightning.
I'm not sure how the mindlessness of a religious person - as in the case of your Kalahari bushmen - has any connection to the advanced rationality and undeluded vision of a sage.

Funnily enough, attempting to draw such a connection is very much like a Kalahari bushman praying to a rock in the face of a storm. :)

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Re: God Does Not Exist - Question about that

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David Quinn wrote:
Loki wrote:
David Quinn wrote: Obviously, I was talking about a molecule of the chair itself.
Sorry. Obviously a molecule of the chair should be considered part of the chair. Sorry if my previous answer was stupid, but your question was kind of stupid, with all due respect.
Yet according to your criteria above, it is separate from the chair.
No, you are defining the chair to be something separate from that particular molecule at the edge. I'm defining the chair as the totality of carbon molecules which originate from the manufacturer.
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Re: God Does Not Exist - Question about that

Post by David Quinn »

Okay, so now you have a conflict. According to your original criteria (namely, that two things are separate when each of them are finite with space in between), the molecule is separate from the chair. But now according to your new criteria, the molecule is part of the chair.

The same molecule can viewed as separate from the chair or part of it, depending on which criteria we use.

It's starting to sound a little arbitrary .....

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Re: God Does Not Exist - Question about that

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Loki wrote:
brokenhead wrote:
Loki wrote: Is it possible to realize this without science?
That's an interesting question, maybe even a loaded one.

The only way I can answer that is by observing that science is always questioning its own assumptions.
Ok, so is it an "assumption" that a vacuum does not exist in the phenomenal world? Do you question this assumption? Or do you you know with absolute certainty that a vacuum is impossible?
It is as certain as a world which is built of subatomic particles each with a nonzero probability of being anywhere can be. The vacuum is an ideal. In science research and in technological applications, it is approximated, but current QM states it can never be absolutely achieved for any length of time. Virtual particles are not purely theoretical. Space that is otherwise empty of goss matter such as molecules experiences the spontaneoues appearance and subsequesnt annihilation of particles of matter.

From wikipedia about virtual particles:
There is not a definite line differentiating virtual particles from real particles — the equations of physics just describe particles (which includes both equally).
Here is the link to wiki on vacuum.

I should remind you that when I was dealing with such things in a laboratory setting, there was no Wikipedia or WWW, and the Internet was in its infancy. I will only refer people to Wiki if it jives with things as I understand them from other sources or if it is something entirely new to me. In other words, I vet the information when I am able, as I have found flaws in the past.
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Re: God Does Not Exist - Question about that

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David Quinn wrote:I'm not sure how the mindlessness of a religious person - as in the case of your Kalahari bushmen - has any connection to the advanced rationality and undeluded vision of a sage.
I am not saying anyone's mindlessness has anything to do with the advanced rationality of another person. You are the one attributing these characteristics to the Kalahari bushman and yourself, respectively.
Funnily enough, attempting to draw such a connection is very much like a Kalahari bushman praying to a rock in the face of a storm. :)
Yes, I have been exposed to GF long enough to know that you think this. Many years ago I read a book by Weston LaBarre called The Ghost Dance. It dealt with the origins of religion and religious rituals and related behavior of primates. I think you would find it interesting, David, but I just looked for it on Amazon and they didn't have anything I could link you to. They have other Weston LaBarre works, but not this one.
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Re: God Does Not Exist - Question about that

Post by brokenhead »

Amazon did have a link after all for Ghost Dance.
This is a fascinating book. The review in this link is spot on.
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Re: God Does Not Exist - Question about that

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brokenhead wrote:I have long wondered about the concept of "one." As a mental construct, an abstraction, it is intuitively unambiguous. But when applied to anything "out there," it always has to be qualified before it can quantify. One what?
How about "one action"? One action may have innumerable 'mini-actions.'
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Re: God Does Not Exist - Question about that

Post by Sapius »

I still have a few hours before I go on my trip… and of course, I could not resist, to the point of canceling my trip when reading recent posts... well...
BH: There is no such thing as empty space. A vacuum is a mental construct and does not exist in the phenomenal world.
If vacuum is a ‘mental construct’, then so is that which one considers a ‘non-vacuum’; which leads to two things… one that since absolutely everything is a ‘mental construct’, so that particular aspect becomes absolutely redundant, or irrelevant, or inconsequential, or not worth considering it as any different than a phenomenal world, for then what exactly is the idea of a ‘phenomenal world’ but a mental construct too.

One needs to at least be consistent in ones thinking to make some logical sense "in" the “world” we live in, and I have reason to believe that existence has to necessarily be logical to its core.

And secondly, if there is no such thing as empty space, and that is say final, then it only makes logical sense to intelligibly talk about what we are left with… that being the conscious and (even be it) “mental” differentiations that lead to coherent and logical outcomes, like running like hell in the face of eminent danger, even if that is a “mentally constructed”….. I don’t know what… an “idea”? Then I say Thank God for ideas!
BH: In a very real sense, the world in which we live demands that the smallest number is three. Because any external entity requires another entity which it is not so that A=A holds; it also requires the existence of at least one consciousness to which the realization that A=A occurs, i.e., it requires an observer.
Firstly, philosophically speaking, I don’t see the possibility of any other world, so saying ‘the world in which we live’ does not make much sense then; secondly, not necessarily three, but just two – a self that can interactively reflect upon its self because of that which has to necessarily not be that self, and vice versa of course. Fundamentally, a third “thing” is not necessary for A=A to hold true, unless one assumes such ‘interactivity’ of any two things to be a third "thing", but that exactly is what existence is, hence not a “thing” in the ordinary sense of the term. All that is fundamentally needed is the observer and the observed – just two; otherwise, no existence, which is not a third thing, for there is nothing that could be compared to such a system, for nothing could lie beyond such a system, aka, causality.

I don’t see ‘from one come the two, and from two come the ten thousand’, but, ‘from two come the ten thousand, and the one, and or the zero'. (Jehu, you reading this?) Without the two, there can’t be a one or even the sense of existence to begin with, and existence is not a “third” thing, but simply the sense of that sensually felt logical and coherent interaction of just two things.

On Observer; what exactly is it that observes, or thinks that an observer is necessary, other than the observer ITSELF!? We erroneously assume that there is a third thing when we say it is "MY" mind, for what exactly is it that thinks it is MY mind, other than that very particular processing system that has the capability and calls or names its self as “mind”. This very mistake of assuming that there is some third thing hidden behind the mind, which reflects in thinking/saying “my” mind, is what I think gave rise to the idea of a soul or spirit, which must have then become the tool of the strong and those that did not actually believe in it, and used it to control and rule others. Brilliant for its time!
John: Here is how we perceive it: we are either 1/2 of a human being or we are two human beings in one body. We do not have an integrated singular personality.
With all due respects, It is however the ‘personality’ that makes one person different than another, and logically it is impossible for even a single dust particle to be absolutely identical to another; if nothing else, then they cannot logically occupy the same space/time point of being, and hence are being compared to begin with.
David to Loki (before Loki made a typing mistake): Each molecule within a chair is surrounded by space. Should a carbon-based molecule, say, situated at the very edge of what we call a "chair", be considered part of the chair or separate from it?
That would hinge on what one means by ‘separate’, otherwise the molecule sensed as the edge of the chair has to necessarily be DIFFERENT than that which we sense as NOT the CHAIR, so the use of the word “separate” seems to be unnecessary, or say an introduction of a red herring, or a rainbow trout... perhaps? I really don't know.
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Re: God Does Not Exist - Question about that

Post by David Quinn »

brokenhead wrote:
David Quinn wrote:I'm not sure how the mindlessness of a religious person - as in the case of your Kalahari bushmen - has any connection to the advanced rationality and undeluded vision of a sage.
I am not saying anyone's mindlessness has anything to do with the advanced rationality of another person. You are the one attributing these characteristics to the Kalahari bushman and yourself, respectively.

Is that right? Are you saying that I secretly took over your account and posted under "brokenhead" that wisdom was "more useless than the most primitive of religions", before going on to talk about the uselessness of the Kalahari bushmen's religion?

brokenhead wrote:
Funnily enough, attempting to draw such a connection is very much like a Kalahari bushman praying to a rock in the face of a storm. :)
Yes, I have been exposed to GF long enough to know that you think this. Many years ago I read a book by Weston LaBarre called The Ghost Dance. It dealt with the origins of religion and religious rituals and related behavior of primates. I think you would find it interesting, David, but I just looked for it on Amazon and they didn't have anything I could link you to. They have other Weston LaBarre works, but not this one.
Cows, Pigs, Wars, and Witches: The Riddles of Culture by Marvin Harris is also an interesting work along these lines.

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Re: God Does Not Exist - Question about that

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David Quinn wrote:Is that right? Are you saying that I secretly took over your account and posted under "brokenhead" that wisdom was "more useless than the most primitive of religions", before going on to talk about the uselessness of the Kalahari bushmen's religion?
Yes, and I must say it is quite annoying when you abuse your administrative privileges in this manner.
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Re: God Does Not Exist - Question about that

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David Quinn wrote: From the human race's current perspective, a vacuum is a contrived mental construct. It is something we have imagined by mentally abstracting everything away from a conceived region of space. The question is, does such a conception actually refer to a reality in the physical world? Or alternatively, does our mental concept of a vacuum involve a contradiction in terms?

Does anyone want to have a crack at that one?

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I'll have a crack at it.
Since the mental concept of the vacuum in the physical world is surrounded by what is not the vacuum (at the least an observer), it is logically impossible to say that absolutely everything has been removed from that conceived region of space. To say that there is absolutely nothing in this proposed vacuum would mean that it is infinte in nature, it would logically have to be the All since there is nothing else for it to relate to. The contradiciton in terms would be that this conceptual vacuum is actually everything, rather than nothing.

Edit with a further thought:
You need conciousness to think up the notion of a vacuum in the first place, which in itself would lead to a logical contradiction in terms, i.e. no conciousness, no vacuum. Yet, even with conciousness, there is still no vacuum.
Last edited by Robert on Mon Mar 02, 2009 5:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: God Does Not Exist - Question about that

Post by Sapius »

.
Me too... me too... (Waves left hand frantically)
David: From the human race's current perspective, a vacuum is a contrived mental construct. It is something we have imagined by mentally abstracting everything away from a conceived region of space. The question is, does such a conception actually refer to a reality in the physical world? Or alternatively, does our mental concept of a vacuum involve a contradiction in terms?
Humm… now that I think about it… I must admit I am flabbergasted… What a question!

But it might help if you could tell me if the ‘physical world’ is a contrived mental construct or not?

And further more, just like ‘vacuum’, which we have imagined by mentally abstracting everything away from a conceived region of space, have we not imagined by mentally adding everything together and conceived totality? Does addition not qualify as a contrived mental construct?

Well... I will look into your response when I get back, and then take another crack at it.
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Re: God Does Not Exist - Question about that

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David Quinn wrote:Okay, so now you have a conflict. According to your original criteria (namely, that two things are separate when each of them are finite with space in between), the molecule is separate from the chair.

How do you know that molecules are actually separate from each other? What if they are all tied together by some electrical field?
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Re: God Does Not Exist - Question about that

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BH: There is no such thing as empty space. A vacuum is a mental construct and does not exist in the phenomenal world.

Are you saying that mental constructs are going beyond "phenomenal word"?
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Re: God Does Not Exist - Question about that

Post by David Quinn »

Loki wrote:
David Quinn wrote:Okay, so now you have a conflict. According to your original criteria (namely, that two things are separate when each of them are finite with space in between), the molecule is separate from the chair.
How do you know that molecules are actually separate from each other? What if they are all tied together by some electrical field?
You mean, like the way that the chair and the earth are tied together by a gravitational field?

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Re: God Does Not Exist - Question about that

Post by David Quinn »

Sapius wrote:.
Me too... me too... (Waves left hand frantically)

Yes, what is it, Sapius?

Sapius wrote:
David: From the human race's current perspective, a vacuum is a contrived mental construct. It is something we have imagined by mentally abstracting everything away from a conceived region of space. The question is, does such a conception actually refer to a reality in the physical world? Or alternatively, does our mental concept of a vacuum involve a contradiction in terms?
Humm… now that I think about it… I must admit I am flabbergasted… What a question!

But it might help if you could tell me if the ‘physical world’ is a contrived mental construct or not?

It is a contrived mental construct, but because we directly experience what this concept points to during each moment of the day, it differs from the vacuum-concept. What we call the physical world is a simple sub-division of our overall experience of life.

In the case of a vacuum, we don't know if we ever experience it in the physical world or that it even exists. It could well be an abstraction without a referent, which would give it the same status as a line of longitude or a mathematical point.

To put it another way, the "physical world" is a label we give to a particular set of experiences, while the "vacuum" is a label we give to something which hasn't been experienced (as far as we know) and which may never be experienced.

So the question boils down to this: Is the vacuum just as abstract and contrived as the mathematical point? And if so, how could this be demonstrated?

And further more, just like ‘vacuum’, which we have imagined by mentally abstracting everything away from a conceived region of space, have we not imagined by mentally adding everything together and conceived totality? Does addition not qualify as a contrived mental construct?

The difference is, the totality exists (beyond the mere concept of it) out of logical necessity. The vacuum doesn't have that particular luxury.

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Re: God Does Not Exist - Question about that

Post by David Quinn »

Robert wrote:
David Quinn wrote: From the human race's current perspective, a vacuum is a contrived mental construct. It is something we have imagined by mentally abstracting everything away from a conceived region of space. The question is, does such a conception actually refer to a reality in the physical world? Or alternatively, does our mental concept of a vacuum involve a contradiction in terms?

Does anyone want to have a crack at that one?
I'll have a crack at it.
Since the mental concept of the vacuum in the physical world is surrounded by what is not the vacuum (at the least an observer), it is logically impossible to say that absolutely everything has been removed from that conceived region of space. To say that there is absolutely nothing in this proposed vacuum would mean that it is infinte in nature, it would logically have to be the All since there is nothing else for it to relate to. The contradiciton in terms would be that this conceptual vacuum is actually everything, rather than nothing.

I'm not following you. Why can't there be a limited portion of space in which there is absolutely nothing at all situated within the Universe at large? Why would such a portion have to be infinite in nature? I can't see the connection you are making there.

Edit with a further thought:
You need conciousness to think up the notion of a vacuum in the first place, which in itself would lead to a logical contradiction in terms, i.e. no conciousness, no vacuum. Yet, even with conciousness, there is still no vacuum.
Isn't this a case of already presuming that a vacuum is nothing more than an abstraction? Why can't there be consciousness and vacuums in the same way that there can be consciousness and trees?

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Re: God Does Not Exist - Question about that

Post by brokenhead »

marcothay wrote:BH: There is no such thing as empty space. A vacuum is a mental construct and does not exist in the phenomenal world.

Are you saying that mental constructs are going beyond "phenomenal word"?
That they are related to the phenomal world at all is astounding.
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