How can women be sexually appealing...

[Loki]

I did a google search on why models are so unattractive, and found an interesting answer:

Models are like display racks for the clothes. If they had full, voluptuous figures, it would distract from the clothes. Designer Karl Lagerfeld said that he views models as blocks of wood on which he hangs his creations.

I guess the point of modeling is to show off the designer's skills and creativity. A sexual attractive woman (the voluptuous) actually distracts from that, so they select the super skinny girls, because they serve as good display racks.

Appalling, really.

[Dan Rowden]

For all I know, you guys could be right, and be describing things accurately from the male perspective.

There really is only the male perspective, if there is perspective at all. Women don't have "perspective" in this. You have to be able to step back, reflectively from all this to be able to have any true perspective. Most women lack that ability; most men don't use what they have.

The male perspective expressed in this thread is based only on the male experience. It says nothing about the female experience. These are different for obvious reasons, but since I’m not sure I’m being properly understood, I’ll talk about it a little more.

No need, because what you spoke of - which was essentially an outline of physical sensations - wasn't what I was talking about. By "perspective", I didn't mean a set of preferences for what one experiences in the physical act. Everybody has those, and they vary from person to person, not just from gender to gender. I meant a perspective on the whole realm of sexuality, which includes more than just the physical sensations. It takes a meaningful level of consciousness to have a such a thing, and the average woman, and precious few men, possess that. Many have an "attitude", but that's not the same as a conscious perspective.

David is talking about the male experience. My experience with sex could never be described as relieving a bladder, even if it was with one of Jason’s machines.

Well, I don't think Dave's "piss" analogy was a very effective one so I'm not going to pursuit it myself. However, your own analogy of a planning for sex like a restaurant meal and anticipating the pleasure, involves psycho-sexual dynamics that go far beyond the simple physical stimulation. It may be that you can experience sex and food as equivalent, but for you to extrapolate that personal experience to women in general is obviously faulty. The vast majority of people, men and women alike, are greatly caught up in the psycho-sexual dynamics, both of the complexities of Woman and of the simplicity of the dominance/submission, subject/object psychology. People who don't see this are exactly the ones lacking perspective. What people go through to get sex is proof enough of this point.

For me the physical pleasure is enough; the psychological pleasure you talk about leaves enough baggage for me to go on a 2-month trip to Europe. Been there, done that.

Well, you're thinking about this at a gross level there. I'm talking about all levels, gross and subtle. That you would not allow a woman to perform sex on you is akin to not allowing a woman to cook that meal you're anticipating. It means there's a psych-sexual element to your thinking about and enjoyment of the physical act.

Most people end up in abusive, non-functional relationships. All because they want psychological pleasure mixed with the physical.

All ego-based relationships are abusive and dysfunctional by default. And it's not so much that people want the emotional mixed with the physical, it's that they are intertwined in such a way that hardly anyone can unknot them. Indeed, no-one with a ego really can, completely.

[Dan Rowden]

I did a google search on why models are so unattractive, and found an interesting answer:

Models are like display racks for the clothes. If they had full, voluptuous figures, it would distract from the clothes. Designer Karl Lagerfeld said that he views models as blocks of wood on which he hangs his creations.

That seems reasonable enough to me. That's certainly how the industry views them. For them, models really are just mobile dummies. Actually......

I guess the point of modeling is to show off the designer's skills and creativity. A sexual attractive woman (the voluptuous) actually distracts from that, so they select the super skinny girls, because they serve as good display racks.

Appalling, really.

It's pretty vacuous, as most thing fashionable are, but this point doesn't account for why such models have attained the social status as templates for what women could or should be. Any thoughts on that?

[Shahrazad]

I'm just glad to find out that some guys here consider voluptuous women sexually attractive.

Dan, I'll reply later.

[Loki]

I guess the point of modeling is to show off the designer's skills and creativity. A sexual attractive woman (the voluptuous) actually distracts from that, so they select the super skinny girls, because they serve as good display racks.

Appalling, really.

It's pretty vacuous, as most thing fashionable are, but this point doesn't account for why such models have attained the social status as templates for what women could or should be. Any thoughts on that?

Hmmm. It might be a lot of things at once.

a) I think these women fear being fat a lot more than they fear being too skinny.

This over-dieting may simply reflect a retreat away from the horror they feel when thinking about being fat. And the fear they have of fatness may cause them to perceive their bodies in an exaggerated way. Their fear causes them to see excessive fat on their bodies, when really there is no such excessive fatness. It's just their fear causing them to exaggerate what they perceive.

b) Unlike men, women might not be attracted to voluptuousness themselves, and are instinctively attracted to leanness, and so when women strive to be skinny, maybe they are just shaping their bodies in accordance to what they find attractive.

c) Perhaps it is because this "skinny template" created by the modeling industry has been paired with attention, fame, wealth and the idea of beauty. This pairing is causing women to unconsciously gravitate toward the template, simply because of the qualities (attention, fame, money) it's paired with.

It's a bit like Pavlov's Dogs. The Dogs don't naturally find the bell-tone attractive, but when you pair it with a stimuli the dogs naturally lust for (food), then they get excited over the bell-tone. This 'skinny template' is maybe just the Pavlovian bell-tone that is being paired with elements women naturally lust for (e.g., attention, fame, wealth and the idea of beauty).

[Dan Rowden]

I'm just glad to find out that some guys here consider voluptuous women sexually attractive.

Men are biologically designed to do so, though it would depend on how "voluptuous" they were. There are indicators of health and potentially good child rearing that men unconsciously select for. Models generally don't fit the criteria.

[brokenhead]

It's interesting to look at models and super models, who supposedly express the physical attractiveness of women at its highest level, and observe how much they resemble people with Down Syndrome. With their big eyes, big lips, small chins and vacant stares, they look like spastic mongoloids from an alien world.

I find this description and comparison by David much more interesting. I was not aware that big eyes, big lips, and small chins were characteristic of people with DS. It says more about David than it does about models.

I don't think most men find most models all that attractive, really, their freakish and anorexic nature considered.

And Loki makes the point that the clothes are supposed to be what catches the eye. The irony is, the clothes are often repulsive as well.

But runway events are not for the consumer, they are more for buyers in the clothing industry. The vacuousness of the fashion world is almost comical. If you hear designers describing what runway models are wearing during one of these televised "events," you will notice that the favorite expression is "very, very." Everything is very, very this or very, very that. The constant overuse of the hyperboles underscores the fact that there is nothing of substance to the fashion world. This nonsense finds its way into the average woman's head via worthless glamor magazines. Women are trained as consumers to think it is a good thing to attempt to express her many moods by what she wears. She is being subliminally conditioned to believe that her moods have importance.

In the US, it wasn't until after WWII that women got caught up in paying so much attention to fashion.

That, of course, doesn't matter to most women because women will value and aspire to whatever they are presented with as the "epitome" of womanhood. "...ring through her nose" etc.

No shit, Dan. And there is no better proof of this than the ubiquity of tattoos on girls today. The tramp stamp was all but nonexistent 25 years ago. Internet access to porn has changed all that. And you just know that girls think they are making themselves attractive by getting inked. You used to be able to pretend that a woman might be a worthwhile companion. Now it is as if they are advertising "I don't have an idea in my head that you would find interesting." It's fucking depressing.

[Dan Rowden]

That, of course, doesn't matter to most women because women will value and aspire to whatever they are presented with as the "epitome" of womanhood. "...ring through her nose" etc.

No shit, Dan. And there is no better proof of this than the ubiquity of tattoos on girls today. The tramp stamp was all but nonexistent 25 years ago. Internet access to porn has changed all that. And you just know that girls think they are making themselves attractive by getting inked. You used to be able to pretend that a woman might be a worthwhile companion. Now it is as if they are advertising "I don't have an idea in my head that you would find interesting." It's fucking depressing.

The tattoo thing is big here too; ubiquitous, really. Girls without any at all are now quite literally the exception. As depressing and mindless as that is, it's even more depressing that this trend has hit young males as well. It's a sad day when males start openly wearing symbols of their deference to cultural fashions, and that this really is the only reason they have them.

[Rhett]

As depressing and mindless as that is, it's even more depressing that this trend has hit young males as well. It's a sad day when males start openly wearing symbols of their deference to cultural fashions, and that this really is the only reason they have them.

I've noticed many young males go to beauty salons these days to get their hair done, with tints and special arrangements, and these males may look at non-conforming males with disdain, in attempt to make them feel inferior. These types don't tend to say anything or much, they seem kind of mute.

[Ignius]

What's wrong with taking pleasure in appearances?

[Dan Rowden]

Where does the pleasure come from?

[Animus]

That, of course, doesn't matter to most women because women will value and aspire to whatever they are presented with as the "epitome" of womanhood. "...ring through her nose" etc.

No shit, Dan. And there is no better proof of this than the ubiquity of tattoos on girls today. The tramp stamp was all but nonexistent 25 years ago. Internet access to porn has changed all that. And you just know that girls think they are making themselves attractive by getting inked. You used to be able to pretend that a woman might be a worthwhile companion. Now it is as if they are advertising "I don't have an idea in my head that you would find interesting." It's fucking depressing.

The tattoo thing is big here too; ubiquitous, really. Girls without any at all are now quite literally the exception. As depressing and mindless as that is, it's even more depressing that this trend has hit young males as well. It's a sad day when males start openly wearing symbols of their deference to cultural fashions, and that this really is the only reason they have them.

I was born in 1981 and growing up tattoos were a big thing. Everyone was getting tattoos, figuratively speaking, it was certainly the 'cool' thing to do. I always thought my peers would grow out of it and realize how utterly pointless it is. I'm an adult now and learn that many of my peers still value tattoos. It makes no sense to me, never has.

[Ignius]

Where does the pleasure come from?

From that warm and fuzzy feeling inside.