How can women be sexually appealing...

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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Jason
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Re: How can women be sexually appealing...

Post by Jason »

David Quinn wrote:Indeed. As any experienced seducer will tell us, the chase is the main game and the biggest thrill of sex. The actual physical act at the end is almost an anti-climax, a ritual that has to be got through. The woman has already submitted, the game has already been won.

It will be interesting to see if technology can offer the same kind of thrill. I suppose it could one day - e.g. devising difficult games with exotic rewards for advanced users.
It would be trivially easy to reward current video game players with porn at the completion of a level. Of course, that wouldn't too accurately resemble the seduction game(although, in past times, fighting and killing other males as occurs in video games might have been a good and common way to obtain sex.) I'd bet that most video game players would still stick to getting porn without a challenge given such a choice.

But I wonder if the desire for seduction would continue to exist when people have instant access to ultra-realistic simulated sex(featuring perfectly customized, disease-free, pregnancy incapable, unwaveringly faithful, unearthly attractive and talented partners.) I think this desire for seduction might be partly masochistic conditioning - built up by years of difficulty in attaining sex. If a person entering puberty never had to even try or risk anything for perfect sex, they might not develop this rather self-harming desire to put themselves through risky time and energy consuming trials to gain sex.

Then there is the question of even how innate or natural seduction is in the first place. In many cultures and times the current mating and wooing rituals that comprise seduction were completely unknown.

Perhaps we can look back through the history of technology and find some comparisons. Were people raving about how water could never taste so sweet if they didn't have to trek ten kilometres to the well and back for it? Now water is instantly on tap for a lot of people but very few are trying to recreate the old well situation.

I tend to see progress as about attaining goals and then moving onto bigger challenges. If and when perfect simulated sex arrives, I think it might be that I'd consider the goal/issue of sex to be conquered/fixed/attained and move on to other bigger, newer, more challenging and exciting things, like exploring and colonizing space. Sex would still be on tap in my spaceship though.
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skipair
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Re: How can women be sexually appealing...

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Dan Rowden wrote:That all makes sense, yet omits a vital part of the "game" - risk. How would such a game create the element of risk (rejection)? Yes, its characters might reject you, but it's just a game so I'm not sure how the risk would be experienced as significant compared to what one experiences with real women to whom one is greatly egotistically attached.
The risk would be in receiving pain from rejection instead of pleasure from acceptance. I'm assuming if you can do one, you can also do the other. It'd be the same as making a big bet in poker, making your move, and then losing. Ouch!

The 'instant access' to ultra-realistic simulated sex would probably only be good if it wasn't "instant". To make the simulation beat out women, the game would have to be more challenging than it is currently with real women, the risk of pain would have to be greater, and the pleasure reward would have to be greater.
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Jason
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Re: How can women be sexually appealing...

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You want higher risk and pain in a sex simulation? Just add a nice little electric shock to the testicles whenever the player fails. Simple. Maybe you could sync it with visuals of the woman inflicting a kick to the crotch.
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skipair
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Re: How can women be sexually appealing...

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Jason wrote:Then there is the question of even how innate or natural seduction is in the first place. In many cultures and times the current mating and wooing rituals that comprise seduction were completely unknown.

Perhaps we can look back through the history of technology and find some comparisons. Were people raving about how water could never taste so sweet if they didn't have to trek ten kilometres to the well and back for it? Now water is instantly on tap for a lot of people but very few are trying to recreate the old well situation.
There might be some cultural differences in the seductions, but at bottom I think their functioning has always been the same. Your water analogy is very good, and I would definitely say that water would be more pleasurable for me if I had to work harder for it. This is what women have done: kept themselves as the old well.
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skipair
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Re: How can women be sexually appealing...

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Jason wrote:You want higher risk and pain in a sex simulation?
Frankly, what I want is the mind I had before I was attracted to women. If I could press a button right now that meant I never saw another women ever again, I would press it - right now.

Just add a nice little electric shock to the testicles whenever the player fails. Simple. Maybe you could sync it with visuals of the woman inflicting a kick to the crotch.
Yeah, but I was thinking more of stimulating different parts of the brain instead of physically receiving a shock - going for more emotional pain than physical.
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Jason
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Re: How can women be sexually appealing...

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David Quinn wrote:You could switch them off at least.
You could have it set so that it automatically switches off everyone over sixty years old.
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Shahrazad
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Re: How can women be sexually appealing...

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Or everyone who doesn't have an xx chromosome pair.
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rebecca702
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Re: How can women be sexually appealing...

Post by rebecca702 »

Shahrazad wrote:Or everyone who doesn't have an xx chromosome pair.
For Bog's sake! this is getting old.
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Jason
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Re: How can women be sexually appealing...

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skipair wrote:There might be some cultural differences in the seductions, but at bottom I think their functioning has always been the same.
Including things like dowry systems and arranged marriages?
skipair wrote:Your water analogy is very good, and I would definitely say that water would be more pleasurable for me if I had to work harder for it.
Fuck that, we got overflowing cola, milk shakes, fruit juice, and for the traditionalists the purest sparkling spring water from the mountains of Switzerland(or somewhere) - no stinking diseased well water can match that. Technology baby.
skipair wrote:This is what women have done: kept themselves as the old well.
People are largely the result of influences from their entire society, I don't think you should go blaming just women(even giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming that you have a valid grievance.) Maybe I'm being a tad over-argumentative....
Animus
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Re: How can women be sexually appealing...

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skipair
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Re: How can women be sexually appealing...

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Jason wrote:
skipair wrote:There might be some cultural differences in the seductions, but at bottom I think their functioning has always been the same.
Including things like dowry systems and arranged marriages?
Arranged marriage isn't a seduction, and I'm guessing a dowry system isn't either, whatever that is.

S: Your water analogy is very good, and I would definitely say that water would be more pleasurable for me if I had to work harder for it.

J: Fuck that, we got overflowing cola, milk shakes, fruit juice, and for the traditionalists the purest sparkling spring water from the mountains of Switzerland(or somewhere) - no stinking diseased well water can match that. Technology baby.
Not the point. Keep your milk shakes and pure water, but work harder for them and enjoy them more.

S: This is what women have done: kept themselves as the old well.

J: People are largely the result of influences from their entire society, I don't think you should go blaming just women(even giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming that you have a valid grievance.) Maybe I'm being a tad over-argumentative....
Believe me, there are many things in society I'd change. Women are definitly close to the top of the list.
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Shahrazad
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Re: How can women be sexually appealing...

Post by Shahrazad »

Rebecca,
For Bog's sake! this is getting old.
Oh? And the following is not?

You could have it set so that it automatically switches off everyone over sixty years old.

You're pitiful, Rebecca.
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skipair
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Re: How can women be sexually appealing...

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Why is so hard to avoid the trap, that when we try to correct someone else on their bad behavior, we use bad behavior to correct them?

Better to be silent, and move on.
Animus
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Re: How can women be sexually appealing...

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skipair wrote:
Jason wrote:You want higher risk and pain in a sex simulation?
Frankly, what I want is the mind I had before I was attracted to women. If I could press a button right now that meant I never saw another women ever again, I would press it - right now.

Just add a nice little electric shock to the testicles whenever the player fails. Simple. Maybe you could sync it with visuals of the woman inflicting a kick to the crotch.
Yeah, but I was thinking more of stimulating different parts of the brain instead of physically receiving a shock - going for more emotional pain than physical.

Nucleus Accumbens

Ventral Tegmental Area (VTA)


There is a famous experiment where researches installed electrodes into these areas in the brains of rats and connected them to a lever the rats could push. They trained the rats on the lever and provided a second stimulus (food or something). As I recall, the result was the rats would never leave the lever and would stimulate themselves to death.

http://www.reuniting.info/science/sex_in_the_brain

"Have you heard of the "Coolidge Effect?" Because that’s what we're addressing. Scientists have discovered that - after a frenzy of copulation - a male rat will lose interest in a female. BUT should a new female show up, he’ll perk up long enough to service her.1 This process can be continued until he practically dies of exhaustion - once again proving that biology doesn’t give a rat’s…hindquarters about anything but propelling genes into the future. The Coolidge Effect has been observed in every species tested, and not just in males. Lady rodents prefer to seduce new guys, too."
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Shahrazad
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Re: How can women be sexually appealing...

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Why is so hard to avoid the trap, that when we try to correct someone else on their bad behavior, we use bad behavior to correct them?
Carl also uses this strategy. He keeps protesting against Tomas' news posts by making very similar posts himself.
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Dan Rowden
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Re: How can women be sexually appealing...

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rebecca702 wrote:
Dan Rowden wrote:I've seen it, but have no real memory of it other than thinking it was passingly interesting. The problem with this sort of technology, if it were possible, is that it would just be replacing one set of delusions with another (or, really, placing the same set of delusions within a slightly different framework). So, I'm not sure how much I care that it's possible. Indeed, it might make things even worse.
I think it definitely would make things worse. Didn't mean to sound as though I thought it would be progress in a healthy direction or anything.

I watched it again recently and saw the "making of" where they talked about how in the story the purpose of the virtual reality program was basically so that he could experience the externalization of his mind. And of course being loved by a woman was a big part of that. That really stuck with me, because the guy was obsessed with approval and had very little self-love. So his main motivation was to have love reflected back to him, and he chose to enter the virtual reality world with a wiped memory so he would not know it wasn't real. To him it was more important to feel "love" even though it wasn't real, than to deal with reality.

The movie was depressing as hell, but I think it made a deeper point that not a lot of people got - that it's actually like real life. When men enter relationships with women they are agreeing to forget the importance of reality - they opt to experience an externalization of their minds instead of turning their awareness inward toward their own mind.

I don't know if there's anything worth thinking about it all of that, but the general idea was that 99% of people want love. They might say they want truth, but they want love.
This pretty much sums up the guy I'm currently talking with in the comments section of my Youtube vid, When a Man Loves a Woman.

He certainly wants love more than truth, and will deny the possibility of truth to keep it.
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Dan Rowden
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Re: How can women be sexually appealing...

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skipair wrote:
Jason wrote:Just add a nice little electric shock to the testicles whenever the player fails. Simple. Maybe you could sync it with visuals of the woman inflicting a kick to the crotch.
Yeah, but I was thinking more of stimulating different parts of the brain instead of physically receiving a shock - going for more emotional pain than physical.
I guess this might be possible. Basically it would be simulating all aspects of the real behaviour, which surely then leads to the point that this "game" would simply be a replication of the mindlessness of reality, only exaggerated. No thanks.
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Jason
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Re: How can women be sexually appealing...

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skipair wrote:
Jason wrote:
skipair wrote:There might be some cultural differences in the seductions, but at bottom I think their functioning has always been the same.
Including things like dowry systems and arranged marriages?
Arranged marriage isn't a seduction, and I'm guessing a dowry system isn't either, whatever that is.
That's what I'm saying, seduction may not have even existed in other times and places.
skipair wrote:
Jason wrote:
skipair wrote:Your water analogy is very good, and I would definitely say that water would be more pleasurable for me if I had to work harder for it.
Fuck that, we got overflowing cola, milk shakes, fruit juice, and for the traditionalists the purest sparkling spring water from the mountains of Switzerland(or somewhere) - no stinking diseased well water can match that. Technology baby.
Not the point. Keep your milk shakes and pure water, but work harder for them and enjoy them more.
I'd prefer to continually increase my level of enjoyment by inventing ever more beautifully delicious drinks. Such an inventive process and progress is infinitely more interesting, valuable and worthwhile to me - I get the drink and the great enjoyment and benefits of progress and creation. But feel free to spend all your time wallowing in an uncreative repetitive pit that leads to such thirst that even the most meager respite from it tastes like heaven. Hell why don't you just force yourself to stop drinking all fluids for a few days, I'm sure the reprieve from that unnecessary hell will have the "wonderful" effects you desire.(If you could see me now you'd realize that I'm being a little cheeky when saying all this, not flatly serious.)
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Jason
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Re: How can women be sexually appealing...

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Animus wrote:There is a famous experiment where researches installed electrodes into these areas in the brains of rats and connected them to a lever the rats could push. They trained the rats on the lever and provided a second stimulus (food or something). As I recall, the result was the rats would never leave the lever and would stimulate themselves to death.
Sometimes called wireheading.
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Re: How can women be sexually appealing...

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skipair wrote:Why is so hard to avoid the trap, that when we try to correct someone else on their bad behavior, we use bad behavior to correct them?

Better to be silent, and move on.
Now those are words of wisdom. You spoke without hypocrisy, too, so far as I know you, skip.

Much as I hate to admit it, I fall into this trap far more often than is reasonable given my ideals.
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Jason
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Re: How can women be sexually appealing...

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Dan Rowden wrote:I guess this might be possible. Basically it would be simulating all aspects of the real behaviour, which surely then leads to the point that this "game" would simply be a replication of the mindlessness of reality, only exaggerated. No thanks.
I don't think you're being imaginative enough. Compare people playing video game wars with people really engaging in war for some basic idea of how very different the two can/could be in many ways.
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skipair
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Re: How can women be sexually appealing...

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Jason wrote:That's what I'm saying, seduction may not have even existed in other times and places.
I see. I couldn't say for sure, but I think it's a good bet that arranged marriages are cultural overlays, and that the more primitive and instinctual mating habits simmered actively underneath, no matter what time or place.
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Re: How can women be sexually appealing...

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David Quinn wrote:I've always found the best way to tackle the issue is by seeing into the paucity of women's minds and discerning how incredibly dull they are. Behind the razzle-dazzle of woman there is almost nothing going on. As such, wanting to have sex with a woman is like wanting to have sex with a person with Down Syndrome.
rebecca702, in reference to women wrote:they
I find it pretty strange that you use the word "they" here. I mean, I understand that you're trying to differentiate yourself from the type of woman that David's talking about, but... well, I've seen you in your YouTube videos and I didn't detect any boyishness or butchness in your appearance, speech and behaviour, and if I weren't already aware of your philosophical attitude towards femininity then I wouldn't have even thought to differentiate you from women in general. So it's strange to me that you deny that you're a woman by talking about "them" rather than "us", even though I know why you did it - it seems more appropriate for you to say something along the lines of "women like that" rather than "they". Maybe I'm just being pedantic, or maybe I'm pointing out something with psychological relevance.

You're not the first woman that I've noticed do that, though - Sue Hindmarsh also sometimes refers to women using "they", as she did in the World of Woman podcast.
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Dan Rowden
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Re: How can women be sexually appealing...

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Since she also used the same collective term to refer to men and people in general in this same thread, I'm not sure your point has much merit. Do you think it always connotes some kind of psychological "thingamee" (to use the technical term) that a person refers to their own gender by a impersonal, collective pronoun?

I tell you, men - they truly suck.
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Dan Rowden
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Re: How can women be sexually appealing...

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Shahrazad wrote:David said,
Without the male desire to conquer his ideation of woman, sex would become mundane and uninteresting - akin to relieving one's bladder in the toilet.
For all I know, you guys could be right, and be describing things accurately from the male perspective.
There really is only the male perspective, if there is perspective at all. Women don't have "perspective" in this. You have to be able to step back, reflectively from all this to be able to have any true perspective. Most women lack that ability; most men don't use what they have.
But my perspective is very different to all the text I cited above. It boils down to this: If you could give me a machine that could inflict upon me all the physical sensations (pressure, friction, thrusting, sucking, and whatever else) that the right man could, I'd go for the machine and forget about the man, if for no other reason that because the machine is cheaper, needs less maintenance and is easier to control.
Sure, but in that sense you're only speaking of the simple fact of physical stimulation. For most people this is not enough. They require all the accouterments of the psycho-sexual realm, over and above the simple act of experiencing physical pleasure. I'd go so far as to say that any act of physical gratification without those accouterments is not sexual at all and ought not be thought of as sexual, despite it involving reproductive organs.
Cultural conditioning has nothing to do with my choosing men over women for sex -- it is just that women, or animals, or machines (toys included) are not equipped and skilled to do what a man can do sexually.
Oh, I rather doubt that. A skilled lesbian with a strap-on wouldn't suffice? I suspect she would do a better job.
So it is not the ideation of man that makes the experience so different for me: it is the physical part itself.
So, if I find you a bunch of skilled Panamanian lesbians, you'll be into it?
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