The indestructibility of Consciousness

[JohnEDPMalin]

Sue:

Their ideas are fallacious for two reasons: (1.) they did not tease through what consciousness crudely or coarsely is; (2.) consciousness shuts down when the brain is dead.

There is no afterlife for our delimiting consciousness. It is body or corpse specific.

The human mind has an extraordinary capacity for self-deception: vulgus vult decipi---decipiatur. [Latin, "The common people like to be deceived--deceived let them be."]

It is the precise purpose of concept engineers or philosophers to unveil these various forms of self-deceptions to render life good (protect it from the liars, cheats & thieves that prosper on the backs of others ). This is not the only duty, but it is one of many services that promotes sanity and justice in our everyday lives.

I would argue that 'consciousness' is a result of an emergent behavior that is instantiated out of intra-neuronal (brain neurons + cortical cells) complexity.

I must confess to the group I am presently under the narcotic witchcraft of Alva Noe, Professor of Philosophy, Neuroscientist, etc. at the University of California, Berkeley. Google to read some of his papers (I downloaded all of them and have ordered his February, 2009 book to read). He makes good sense to me.


Respectfully,




John E.D.P. Malin

--

[brokenhead]

I'm sorry, but your comment looks like a little bit stupid!
What about if all memories are actually stored in your liver?
Do you really believe that an hypothetical brain transplant might change someone's personality or/and his memories?
What about children that remember their past life?
Where those memories are coming from? Since they got a new brain.

Unfortunately, you failed to understand my comment. But don't worry! It doesn't mean you are stupid!

[Carl G]

...consciousness shuts down when the brain is dead. There is no afterlife for our delimiting consciousness. It is body or corpse specific.

Fabulous! At last! I've been looking forward to learning the proof for such a long time. (Surely an educated man such as yourself would never state such a thing as a mere assertion. That would be cruel.) Say how we know that consciousness does not survive the death of the body.

Thanks in advance!

Carl

P.S. Or, does your verb "delimiting" somehow qualify the answer to dead by definition? That would disappoint me.

[Nick]

Carl,

If you're looking for any sort of empirical evidence, my brain stopped functioning in a car accident, and there was no consciousness. It would be wishful thinking or just plain stupidity for me to think my consciousness will go on existing without my brain functioning.

[brokenhead]

Carl,

If you're looking for any sort of empirical evidence, my brain stopped functioning in a car accident, and there was no consciousness. It would be wishful thinking or just plain stupidity for me to think my consciousness will go on existing without my brain functioning.

Nick, this just doesn't follow. What do you mean, your brain stopped functioning? You are alive and not a vegetable today, so your brain must have been doing something. We interact on this plane of existence via the physical brain. It is the interaction that gets lost when the brain is damaged. The brain is host to something, as is the rest of the human body. I think when a dog dies, he's gone forever. I am in no way convinced the same thing must be true for human beings. I do not consider myself stupid, nor do I classify it as wishful thinking. I know when I am thinking wishfully. Every time I buy a lottery ticket, that is wishful thinking. What happens to a person upon death is another thing entirely. IMO.

[Carl G]

Carl, If you're looking for any sort of empirical evidence, my brain stopped functioning in a car accident, and there was no consciousness.

You were in a car accident? Sorry to hear that. And you were unaware of anything -- so far as you know? Sorry to hear that, as well. But sorry, that does not prove the point. Nor do I consider it even evidence. You may have been simply unaware of your consciousness. Disconnected from it. Your consciousness may not require your awareness. Your consciousness may have been elsewhere than in your awareness, it may have been elsewhere. Because you were unaware of it is not evidence it does not exist. That would be like saying because your best friend just left the room, and you cannot see him, it is evidence he does not exist apart from your seeing him. Consciousness and awareness can be two different things.

It would be wishful thinking or just plain stupidity for me to think my consciousness will go on existing without my brain functioning.

Lacking proof, and I don't see how we could ever have that, this is mere opinion, and as such, is not worth a whole lot.

[Shahrazad]

I have been put under for several hours during a surgical operation, and I believe what I "experienced" then is exactly what it will be like after I die -- no consciousness at all.

[marcothay]

I have been put under for several hours during a surgical operation, and I believe what I "experienced" then is exactly what it will be like after I die -- no consciousness at all.

There are several techniques out there that make people to regain their memories
apparently lost during periods of unconsciousness, no matter how deep the state of unconsciousness were (from fainting to coma).
Many professionals in the field of hypnotic regression know that as a fact.

I stand with Carl about that even death could be considered just a deeper state of unconsciousness and nothing more.

[Nick]

I have been put under for several hours during a surgical operation, and I believe what I "experienced" then is exactly what it will be like after I die -- no consciousness at all.

Same here. Anesthesia basically inhibits the brain from functioning in a way that allows for consciousness, just like when your heart stops beating the lack of blood carrying oxygen would inhibit your brain from functioning in a way that allows for consciousness.

[Carl G]

Nick,

You're just assuming that one's consciousness is in all cases body-based. What if it is not? What if it is soul-based? What if the soul is extra-body? How would we know definitively? Seems we can only speculate.

And even if consciousness is body-based, how do we know it is brain-based? Or wholly brain-based?

[Cory Duchesne]

Carl,

Have you given much thought to what happens to Alzheimer patients? They can exist for many years, with a increasingly deteriorated personality, eventually becoming a vegetable.

What would be the relationship the soul has to the body, in the instance of partial or complete cognitive damage?

[brokenhead]

Nick,

You're just assuming that one's consciousness is in all cases body-based. What if it is not? What if it is soul-based? What if the soul is extra-body? How would we know definitively? Seems we can only speculate.

And even if consciousness is body-based, how do we know it is brain-based? Or wholly brain-based?

I am not saying I have answers, but I do find myself thinking in similar questioning terms to those you are using here, Carl. Namely, how would we know?

[brokenhead]

I have been put under for several hours during a surgical operation, and I believe what I "experienced" then is exactly what it will be like after I die -- no consciousness at all.

Yet under hypnosis, you could probably repeat verbatim what was said by those who were present in the OR during your operation.

Surgical residents are usually taught that what they say around an anesthetized patient can influence the recovery curve either positively or negatively.

I think Carl is asking the correct questions here, ones that may at least keep you from assuming too much from the subjective anesthesia experience.

[Cory Duchesne]

I am not saying I have answers, but I do find myself thinking in similar questioning terms to those you are using here, Carl. Namely, how would we know?

It just seems so obvious that the brain creates consciousness. Just look at people who get Alzheimer's or consider the case of Phineas Gage

Phineas P. Gage was a railroad construction foreman now remembered for his incredible survival of an accident which drove a large iron rod through his head, destroying one or both of his frontal lobes. The injury's reported effects on his personality and social functioning were said to be so profound that friends saw him as "no longer Gage."

In memorable language, pre-accident Gage was described by employers as having been hard-working, responsible, and "a great favorite" with the men in his charge, his employers having regarded him as "the most efficient and capable foreman in their employ." But these same employers, after Gage's accident, "considered the change in his mind so marked that they could not give him his place again":

"The equilibrium or balance, so to speak, between his intellectual faculties and animal propensities, seems to have been destroyed. He is fitful, irreverent, indulging at times in the grossest profanity (which was not previously his custom), manifesting but little deference for his fellows, impatient of restraint or advice when it conflicts with his desires, at times pertinaciously obstinate, yet capricious and vacillating, devising many plans of future operations, which are no sooner arranged than they are abandoned in turn for others appearing more feasible. A child in his intellectual capacity and manifestations, he has the animal passions of a strong man. Previous to his injury, although untrained in the schools, he possessed a well-balanced mind, and was looked upon by those who knew him as a shrewd, smart businessman, very energetic and persistent in executing all his plans of operation. In this regard his mind was radically changed, so decidedly that his friends and acquaintances said he was "no longer Gage."

[Carl G]

Carl,

Have you given much thought to what happens to Alzheimer patients? They can exist for many years, with a increasingly deteriorated personality, eventually becoming a vegetable.

What would be the relationship the soul has to the body, in the instance of partial or complete cognitive damage?

The body/mind could become cognitively disconnected to the soul. There could still be an unconscious or subconscious connection, just not a functioning awareness connection.

[brokenhead]

Carl,

Have you given much thought to what happens to Alzheimer patients? They can exist for many years, with a increasingly deteriorated personality, eventually becoming a vegetable.

What would be the relationship the soul has to the body, in the instance of partial or complete cognitive damage?

Let me take a swing at that, Cory.

What would be the relationship the soul has to a completely healthy body?

I am of the conviction that we exist in sheathes, the physical body being the outermost and the pure spirit the innermost. As we progress from the coarser plane to the finer, we have next the etheric body, then the astral body, then our "bodies" on the mental planes. It is convenient to divide these "realms" into seven main sheathes (convenient to my level of understanding, that is.) The "soul" is a collective term for the regions between the etheric and the purely spiritual.

When we have partial damage to the cognitive centers, such as Alzheimer's or a stroke, the flow of information inward, that is our ability to experience new things, is compromised. But what has made its way into the soul previously remains intact. However, it is no longer accessible to the outside world, and may even be inaccessible to the person's own higher rational centers.

During death, the outer shell is discarded and the inner sheathes withdraw from the physical plane. The process of transferring memories into the finer strata is known as kama loca. This process often begins prematurely when the organism senses death approaching, when one "sees one's life flash before one's eyes."

The existence of the "subtler" bodies is widely documented. The etheric body, for instance, is where one gets trapped during a night terror, instead of progressing to the astral plane where dreams occur. It seems more real than a dream, yet more fantastic than waking consciousness. It is even said that the loss of a limb does not always include the loss of the etheric double for that limb, ergo the "phantom limb" phenomenon, which can take years to dissipate.

There is more than is dreamed of by our philosophers...

[Cory Duchesne]

Carl,

Have you given much thought to what happens to Alzheimer patients? They can exist for many years, with a increasingly deteriorated personality, eventually becoming a vegetable.

What would be the relationship the soul has to the body, in the instance of partial or complete cognitive damage?

The body/mind could become cognitively disconnected to the soul.

Do you think the soul is conscious before and after this happens?

There could still be an unconscious or subconscious connection, just not a functioning awareness connection.

Ok, so what about when the brain is completely healthy. Is the soul aware that it has a brain? Personally, I know I have a brain, but I have no idea if I have a soul........but are you suggesting that my soul is aware of my brain, but my brain is not aware of my soul?

[Cory Duchesne]

Let me take a swing at that, Cory.

What would be the relationship the soul has to a completely healthy body?

I am of the conviction that we exist in sheathes, the physical body being the outermost and the pure spirit the innermost. As we progress from the coarser plane to the finer, we have next the etheric body, then the astral body, then our "bodies" on the mental planes. It is convenient to divide these "realms" into seven main sheathes (convenient to my level of understanding, that is.) The "soul" is a collective term for the regions between the etheric and the purely spiritual.

When we have partial damage to the cognitive centers, such as Alzheimer's or a stroke, the flow of information inward, that is our ability to experience new things, is compromised.

Not always. In the Case of Phineaus Gage, he was still able to function, but his personality became extremely vulgar, abusive, impatient and moody.

But what has made its way into the soul previously remains intact. However, it is no longer accessible to the outside world, and may even be inaccessible to the person's own higher rational centers.

Well, since we were talking about someone whose higher rational centers had deteriorated, I assume you must be talking about some spiritual higher rational centers. Are you suggesting that a person with Alzheimers has a soul that is conscious, and just patiently waiting for the body to die?

During death, the outer shell is discarded and the inner sheathes withdraw from the physical plane. The process of transferring memories into the finer strata is known as kama loca.

I thought you said information "makes it's way into the soul" prior to brain injury?

Are you implying that the soul is unconscious prior to death? Is death kind of a switch, that activates a soul that was, prior to death, dormant, yet somehow receptive of memories?

This process often begins prematurely when the organism senses death approaching, when one "sees one's life flash before one's eyes."

It would only seem naturally for a person to rapidly think over his life in reaction to apprehending death. In fact, most people are almost always musing over their life throughout the week, month and year, so I imagine that having our 'life flash before our eyes' is simply what the brain has been trained to do over the years, but it's a bit accelerated due to the panicky emotions.

[Nick]

Nick,

You're just assuming that one's consciousness is in all cases body-based. What if it is not? What if it is soul-based? What if the soul is extra-body? How would we know definitively? Seems we can only speculate.

And even if consciousness is body-based, how do we know it is brain-based? Or wholly brain-based?

Carl,

If what you are looking for is absolute certainty that consciousness ceases when the brain stops functioning you wont get it because this is an empirical matter, and all empirical matters are uncertain. The point however is that all reasonable empirical evidence indicates that consciousness is heavily dependent upon a functioning brain to maintain it's existence, and there is no reasonable evidence that would indicate that consciousness can some how exist without a functioning brain. This is why I think that when one entertains the idea that our consciousness will go on existing after our death, it is at best an indulgence in mystical speculation, and at worst a self deception derived from our ego's want of an unfettered existence.

[brokenhead]

OK, so what about when the brain is completely healthy. Is the soul aware that it has a brain? Personally, I know I have a brain, but I have no idea if I have a soul........but are you suggesting that my soul is aware of my brain, but my brain is not aware of my soul?

Remember, the soul is made out of finer stuff. It would make sense for the finer body to be more aware of the coarser body than vice versa. The coarser body is more attuned to coarser things, such as light, sound,and touch stimuli. It is not blind to the existence of the soul, but awareness of the soul takes secondary importance to survival input. The soul is no doubt aware of itself and anything coarser than it, such as the body, including the brain. The spirit itself is aware of everything, yet it is the finest sheath, and its existence remains unnoticed to most, and a mystery to most others. Yet all are accessible to the "I," to the individual self that seeks to know these things.

[brokenhead]

brokenhead: During death, the outer shell is discarded and the inner sheathes withdraw from the physical plane. The process of transferring memories into the finer strata is known as kama loca.

Cory Duchesne: I thought you said information "makes it's way into the soul" prior to brain injury?

Experiences penetrate to different depth, according to their nature and the individual person. Many experiences reside purely on the physical body, like a cut you never noticed. Some experiences affect us deeply, and can lead to spiritual awakenings. Many never make it past the etheric plane. In death, the physical body is abandoned, and shortly thereafter, the etheric body is shed. The etheric body acts as a pathway during kama loca for those experiences which have survival value on the higher planes. I am aware of my own limitations to elucidate this material, believe me.

Are you suggesting that a person with Alzheimer's has a soul that is conscious, and just patiently waiting for the body to die?

Why would that be surprising? If the soul persists in death in some fashion, it would be safe to assume its physical duration is comparatively brief. In other words, a healthy person has a soul that is conscious and is patiently awaiting for the body to die. The worldly life is the tip of the iceberg; the vast majority of a career in eternity still lies ahead. Likewise, therefore, with the Alzheimer's patient.

Are you implying that the soul is unconscious prior to death? Is death kind of a switch, that activates a soul that was, prior to death, dormant, yet somehow receptive of memories?

Of course not. But it must yield to the requirements of the flesh while still in the flesh. It is very much like the familiar experience of being in a room that is so noisy, you cannot think. When the glare of the physical distractions is lessened, the inward processes are more clear and discernible.

It would only seem naturally for a person to rapidly think over his life in reaction to apprehending death. In fact, most people are almost always musing over their life throughout the week, month and year, so I imagine that having our 'life flash before our eyes' is simply what the brain has been trained to do over the years, but it's a bit accelerated due to the panicky emotions.

Well, that is one way of putting it. But do people really muse over their entire lives on a regular basis? I don't think many people have that amount of leisure time unless they make it. I think we are always playing catch-up, we mull over the bare minimum, most of us. Why do we do it at all? Why are we trained to do that? Or is it just a reflex? Maybe it is like the orgasm, la petite mort, the little death. When we sense we have no time left, we automatically begin the final uploading, as it were, since there will not be another chance.

[David Quinn]

I am of the conviction that we exist in sheathes, the physical body being the outermost and the pure spirit the innermost. As we progress from the coarser plane to the finer, we have next the etheric body, then the astral body, then our "bodies" on the mental planes. It is convenient to divide these "realms" into seven main sheathes (convenient to my level of understanding, that is.) The "soul" is a collective term for the regions between the etheric and the purely spiritual.

When we have partial damage to the cognitive centers, such as Alzheimer's or a stroke, the flow of information inward, that is our ability to experience new things, is compromised. But what has made its way into the soul previously remains intact. However, it is no longer accessible to the outside world, and may even be inaccessible to the person's own higher rational centers.

During death, the outer shell is discarded and the inner sheathes withdraw from the physical plane. The process of transferring memories into the finer strata is known as kama loca. This process often begins prematurely when the organism senses death approaching, when one "sees one's life flash before one's eyes."

The existence of the "subtler" bodies is widely documented. The etheric body, for instance, is where one gets trapped during a night terror, instead of progressing to the astral plane where dreams occur. It seems more real than a dream, yet more fantastic than waking consciousness. It is even said that the loss of a limb does not always include the loss of the etheric double for that limb, ergo the "phantom limb" phenomenon, which can take years to dissipate.

There is more than is dreamed of by our philosophers...

What you describe above sounds like a pre-packaged script absorbed from a book and hence lacks credibility.

One sign of an insecure ego is the need to surround itself with lots of comforting layers - seven, in this case - as a kind of added protection against having to face reality directly and nakedly.

I think when a dog dies, he's gone forever. I am in no way convinced the same thing must be true for human beings.

That is understandable. Fear is constantly driving you into the arms of comforting beliefs. You don't want to face the strong likelihood that we are just glorified dogs, really.

First, it was physical alcohol which provided the comfort, now it is mental alcohol.

Every time I buy a lottery ticket, that is wishful thinking. What happens to a person upon death is another thing entirely. IMO.

One of the important things to realize is that this is an issue which can never be resolved, not even we die.

When we die, our consciousness will either become extinct (most likely, given the current evidence), in which case we would no longer have the chance to resolve the issue. Or if our consciousness does continue, we would have no way of knowing that we are actually dead. It is possible that we could be in a coma, for example, and merely imagining that our body has died and that our soul is continuing on in the after-life.

Given this, the whole thing becomes a non-issue. It has no spiritual importance whatsoever. In the end, the only thing of spiritual importance is the act of realizing the nature of reality while we are still alive. Everything else is an egotistical distraction.

-

[Ataraxia]

One sign of an insecure ego is the need to surround itself with lots of comforting layers - seven, in this case - as a kind of added protection against having to face reality directly and nakedly.

Dissapointed it wasn't 10;then the sephirot could be included in the equation for added authenticity. :D

[brokenhead]

What you describe above sounds like a pre-packaged script absorbed from a book and hence lacks credibility.

You are being an ass, but you already know that, I am sure. There is nothing prepackaged about what I have just said in that post, and I have to say, maybe if you tried reading a few more "books" you would not come across as so poorly-read and narrow-minded. Don't they have public libraries in Australia? "That sounds like you read it in a book. Therefore, it is not credible." Some sage you are.

One sign of an insecure ego is the need to surround itself with lots of comforting layers - seven, in this case - as a kind of added protection against having to face reality directly and nakedly.

You are ignorant by choice, that's what is so tragic. You think you face reality more starkly and directly than everyone else. You are so full of shit. That is the stark reality.

That is understandable. Fear is constantly driving you into the arms of comforting beliefs. You don't want to face the strong likelihood that we are just glorified dogs, really.

First, it was physical alcohol which provided the comfort, now it is mental alcohol.

Well, you can just go fuck yourself.

But I'll tell you what, I will let you speak for yourself. I will buy that you are nothing more than a dog, and I will just have to take your word for it that you are somehow glorified.

Given this, the whole thing becomes a non-issue. It has no spiritual importance whatsoever. In the end, the only thing of spiritual importance is the act of realizing the nature of reality while we are still alive. Everything else is an egotistical distraction.

You are a one-trick pony, David.

[brokenhead]

One sign of an insecure ego is the need to surround itself with lots of comforting layers - seven, in this case - as a kind of added protection against having to face reality directly and nakedly.

Dissapointed it wasn't 10;then the sephirot could be included in the equation for added authenticity. :D

You and Quinn deserve each other. Boors, the both of you.