The Nature of Religion

[Dan Rowden]

Dan,

No it wouldn't. It would just mean that women would have to start committing the crimes that men often do on their behalf.

Some females would start committing crimes, true. But the number of criminals would still be much lower than it is today, without men.

Why? What is your theory as to why men commit crimes more often than women?

There'd be no rape, certainly, but broken hearts happen because people are stupid, not because men are bad. How come women never take any responsibility for their own delusions?

It is true that women also cause broken hearts, though not as often as men. I was mentioning this one as a side-benefit of having only one gender. I'll grant you that broken hearts are not entirely men's fault.

No broken heart is ever really the fault of the other person. A broken heart is that person's problem and they are to blame for it, whatever their gender. Our attachments and delusions are our own. We can't blame other people for them.

Oh, and a world without rape would certainly be desirable. I cannot even think of ten women who have never been raped. It is an extremely common crime.

Whilst a world without rape would indeed be good, you also have to remember that a world without men is also a world without love. Not only that, it's a world where women cannot get any sense of their worth - in the way they normally get from men. I don't see women coping very well, frankly.

There would likely be a lot of those if men disappeared.

There would be more, yes, but most women would not turn into lesbians. And we could also get rid of the lesbian gene, if it makes you feel better.

Women would be forced to look to each other to replace all the emotional and egotistical benefits they gain from male adoration. Genetics wouldn't have much to do with it.

[rebecca702]

Shaz-

Shaz, have you read A Brave New World (Aldous Huxley)?

No. Tell me about it, if you are so inclined.

Sure, it's a futuristic novel where the gov't has successfully cloned various classes of people each specialized to fill certain roles in society based on their genetic makeup. I'm having a hard time explaining it better than that, so here's a blurb from amazon:

"Community, Identity, Stability" is the motto of Aldous Huxley's utopian World State. Here everyone consumes daily grams of soma, to fight depression, babies are born in laboratories, and the most popular form of entertainment is a "Feelie," a movie that stimulates the senses of sight, hearing, and touch. Though there is no violence and everyone is provided for, Bernard Marx feels something is missing and senses his relationship with a young women has the potential to be much more than the confines of their existence allow. Huxley foreshadowed many of the practices and gadgets we take for granted today--let's hope the sterility and absence of individuality he predicted aren't yet to come.

It's meant to seem far-removed from the modern-day, in order to more effectively satirize many of the facets of capitalism - the American version in particular. It's one of the most famous dystopian novels out there, I think. Seems relevant to the topic.

Your post was truly terrifying.

Oh, you poor sweet little thing.

Yes, fascism bothers me.

[rebecca702]

Of man there is little here: therefore do their women masculinize themselves. For only he who is man enough, will--save the woman in woman.

I don't actually remember this passage or the broader context, so this interpretation may be way off, but I think he's saying that only "real" mean, manly men, can preserve the ideation that is woman; woman being, in very important respects, nothing but a male ideation. Women instinctively strive to live up to this ideation but do not, themselves, create it. So, without manly men (or the presence and products of masculinity), "Woman" would die.

That's what I get from the passage, but as I say, I could be wrong.

I see Nietzche's passage as being a bit more crude than that. The "woman" in woman is the submissive part of her which looks to man to rescue her. In the absence of such a man, the woman is forced to try and rescue herself.

So in that case, man rescuing her would be a disservice, because he'd be continuing the delusion. If he's not there to do that, she might (in theory) cut her ties from Woman and resolve the need to be rescued. Yes?

We can see feminism as being the product of the absence of men, although there isn't much masculinization going on. Rather, it involves women being allowed to frolick about more freely and having a greater array of dresses to choose from.

And calling out a handful of masculine women as poster children to prove that women can, like, do stuff.

It also speaks to the way that men (husbands, fathers, etc) keep women diminished and oppressed by preserving the "woman" in woman.

Daddy's little girl = *shudder*

But regardless of which interpretation is correct, Nietzsche's second sentence is flawed because it doesn't acknowledge that if men were truly "man" enough, the "woman" in woman would disappear. In other words, it doesn't acknowledge that the "woman" in woman is, in reality, preserved by half-men.

I think that was bothering me, because he's using "man enough" in a different way from "truly masculine". Because the truly masculine wouldn't have anything to do with the feminine.

[Shahrazad]

Dan,

Why? What is your theory as to why men commit crimes more often than women?

Oh, sorry. I thought the reason was obvious. Men are about ten times more likely than women to deviate from "normalness". They engage in more extreme behaviors, and probably act out their fantasies more often. They commit more crimes for the same reason that they are more ambitious.

No broken heart is ever really the fault of the other person. A broken heart is that person's problem and they are to blame for it, whatever their gender. Our attachments and delusions are our own. We can't blame other people for them.

I wasn't trying to assign blame. It was probably not such a good example any way, caused by my personal biases.

Actually, I could make a case as to why men's high sexual drives do cause a lot of suffering in the world, but it would be a long post and I don't like writing those.

Whilst a world without rape would indeed be good, you also have to remember that a world without men is also a world without love.

I agree with you only if by "love" you mean romantic love. And a world without the latter would be so much better and would involve so much less suffering. Romantic love sucks, and is probably as addictive as cocaine.

Not only that, it's a world where women cannot get any sense of their worth - in the way they normally get from men.

A lot of us get our sense of self-worth from our careers or other endeavors. I don't get much attention from men, and my self-worth is at least higher than average.

I don't see women coping very well, frankly.

Frankly, I do.

[David Quinn]

David,

Have you been raped?

Yes, and so has my teen daughter, and most women I have talked to.

Was it a violent rape by a stranger, or by a date that pushed his advances too far?

I think you need to move to another part of the world. All those Latino men, who are undoubtedly very crude, are having a bad affect on you.

Yes, but it isn't just Latin men. It would be like saying that your bad opinion of women means that Australian women are inferior to other women.

Australia is a multi-cultural country, which means that one is able to meet and experience people from all corners of the globe. It has been my experience that Latin men are cruder and more lustful than many other races - on a par with Spanish, Italians and Greeks - and that women are virtually the same everywhere.

It is pretty clear that your thinking on this issue has been traumatized by Latin men. The way you describe things makes it sound like you're living in a hell hole.

And are you going to deny that a large percentage of men do not control their sexual drives very well?

Certainly not in Latin America, by the sounds of it. But my experience in Australia is that the majority of men control themselves with remarkable civility. Of course, we do have our trash as well.

-

[Shahrazad]

Rebecca, thanks for explaining the movie to me. That society does sound a little too fascistic for me.

Dan,

Women would be forced to look to each other to replace all the emotional and egotistical benefits they gain from male adoration. Genetics wouldn't have much to do with it.

Sure, and I already know that women can get quite a few emotional benefits from other women. However, that doesn't mean that they would have to have sex with other women. Do keep in mind that sex is not as high a priority for women as it is for men.

[Shahrazad]

David,

Was it a violent rape by a stranger, or by a date that pushed his advances too far?

Why would you want to hear about my rapes?

I was actually violently raped by a man who I had not met before, and who was hanging out with his girlfriend that night. I told very few people about this. I was also in similar situations with two men that were just friends (not dates), who were not able to consummate the rape only because of how hard I fought them, but who were still able to put me through hell for more than five minutes. One of them actually apologized later. Oh, and the first rapist also apologized, as if that would help.

My ex-husband was physically and emotionally abusive.

Oh, and now that you've made me think about my past, I also had two sexual abuse experiences, which were not quite rape, when I was between 11 and 13.

As to my kid, she was raped by a cousin of mine, in my agegroup.

In spite of all this, I do not have any traumas regarding sex (I know many women that do). My problem is with men, not sex.

It is pretty clear that your thinking on this issue has been traumatized by Latin men.

I admit that Latin men are more pitiful than men from other cultures. But that doesn't mean that the rest of men are not also pitiful. I lived in the USA 15 years. My ex-husband was from there, and was an Anglo-Saxon.

The way you describe things makes it sound like you're living in a hell hole.

It's only hell if you're a woman. My society is very male chauvinistic.

[rebecca702]

Rebecca, thanks for explaining the movie to me. That society does sound a little too fascistic for me.

First of all, it's a book, Brave New World, not a movie (it might have been made into a movie, I don't know).

Secondly, it was brought to mind because of the fascist leanings in your post. Written by you. Fascism bothers me. Fascists bother me. You bother me.

I suggest you read the book because it shows where your ideology will lead.

[Shahrazad]

Rebecca,

You bother me.

Tough luck.

I suggest you read the book because it shows where your ideology will lead.

I haven't yet heard you say the same thing to male chauvinists. Oh, but that's different, because women really are inferior.

[guest_of_logic]

Rebecca: I suggest you read the book because it shows where your ideology will lead.

Shahrazad: I haven't yet heard you say the same thing to male chauvinists.

Well, to be fair, she hasn't been presented with an equivalent male chauvinist scenario...yet. So let's give her a chance: Rebecca, what do you make of Ryan's vision as enunciated near the end of this post?

I think as science progresses, women and men as reproductive couples will become obsolete, and bio-engineering will be used to create genius on the planet, and the truths of masculinity/femininity will become very useful at that time in relationship to neuroscience, genetics and endocrinology. Women will be slowly phased out of existence, and men will be engineering totally different as well, the end result will probably be an asexual being, no longer recognizable as a man.

I'm sure that I've read other similar proposals on this forum - some even more male chauvinist in nature (the ameliorating factor in this one is that the end population is not exactly all-male, although it is based on men) - but despite a lot of searching, this is the only one that I could find.

[Shahrazad]

Laird,

I'm sure that I've read other similar proposals on this forum - some even more male chauvinist in nature (the ameliorating factor in this one is that the end population is not exactly all-male, although it is based on men) - but despite a lot of searching, this is the only one that I could find.

You could not find the one where David proposes a society where all people over a certain age (was it 60?) get killed unless they can prove they have reached enlightenment? Or you could've found the one where jamesh proposes the killing of all Muslims. And there are more.

Will Rebecca call David a fascist? Does he "bother" him/her? Will he/she suggest that he read A Brave New World?

[guest_of_logic]

You could not find the one where David proposes a society where all people over a certain age (was it 60?) get killed unless they can prove they have reached enlightenment?

You mean the one which he later claimed was in jest? I can't find the original post, and I think that it was before my time anyhow. Can you find it?

Or you could've found the one where jamesh proposes the killing of all Muslims.

I don't recall that one, and I couldn't find it through a search either. The closest that I came was this post where he seems to advocate killing the most militant fundamentalist muslims, and this post where, when read with the previous post in that thread, he seems to indicate that he would like for us to commit a genocide against the muslims, but that it wouldn't happen these days due to our "natural distaste for the killing of people". Can you find the one that you mean?

Anyway, I wasn't looking for those posts originally: I was specifically looking for proposed scenarios that were effectively identical to yours (eliminating all men from the planet) except opposite, so that instead of eliminating all men, all women were eliminated.

And there are more.

Then keep 'em coming. Let's make sure that Rebecca is fully informed.

Will Rebecca call David a fascist?

Well, all I can say is that I'm on the edge of my seat...

Does he "bother" him/her?

Rebecca at least claims to be female, so "her" is probably justified.

Will he/she suggest that he read A Brave New World?

Maybe David already has read it. It's a popular book. I've read it myself, although it was a long time ago and I don't remember it very well. Personally I think that George Orwell's 1984 is a far better novel along those lines (it was at least a lot more memorable to me), although it's probably better described as totalitarian than dystopian. I think that I've even recommended it to you in the past. I've read it at least twice and I enjoyed it thoroughly even the second time. It's extremely thought-provoking, has a great storyline too - as well as being an insightful futuristic-political novel filled with interesting details of the inner workings of the totalitarian state, it's also a love story - plus it has a very atypical ending - definitely not a "happily ever after" - and it's entirely conceivable that there are forces acting towards such a world: the growing presence of public surveillance cameras gives cause for suspicion... I've even met a somewhat radical "activist" who reckons that we're already there, but whilst he made some relevant comparisons, on the whole I didn't (and don't) take him seriously.

[Shahrazad]

Laird,

I can't find the original post, and I think that it was before my time anyhow. Can you find it?

As a woman, I prefer to trick men into doing this work for me.

I don't recall that one, and I couldn't find it through a search either. The closest that I came was this post where he seems to advocate killing the most militant fundamentalist muslims, and this post where, when read with the previous post in that thread, he seems to indicate that he would like for us to commit a genocide against the muslims, but that it wouldn't happen these days due to our "natural distaste for the killing of people". Can you find the one that you mean?

He has proposed this many times through the years. I'm not good at these searches, though. Sorry.

Maybe it would be cheaper to just ask jamesh to restate his claim about killing Muslims. He has never denied it.

[guest_of_logic]

Laird: I can't find the original post, and I think that it was before my time anyhow. Can you find it?

Shahrazad: As a woman, I prefer to trick men into doing this work for me.

Oh crap, I'm just a manipulated man after all... and you've even cheated me out of my sexual reward.

Maybe it would be cheaper to just ask jamesh to restate his claim about killing Muslims.

Consider it asked.

[mansman]

Rebecca, hello there, could i ask a favor for myself and other newbies, could you clear up this matter of your gender or perhaps repeat what you may have at one time shared with the group about your personal life, stuff like what or who brings you here to the forum, your specialty or occupation, sex age and country of residence and whatever else you'ld like to state or restate about yourself.
Alternatively you could send me a pm, if you dont wish for all to know all.

We see so few with any vision to speak of hereabouts......
Perhaps you're of the Aussie clan, a groupie of the holy trinity.....

thanks,M

[Shahrazad]

mansman said (to Rebecca),

Perhaps you're of the Aussie clan, a groupie of the holy trinity.....

Oh my nature! I love it.

Have you noticed that Dan has gathered quite a bit of fans now that he has a youtube video channel? He is almost a celebrity.

[Tomas]

mansman said (to Rebecca),

Perhaps you're of the Aussie clan, a groupie of the holy trinity.....

Oh my nature! I love it.

Have you noticed that Dan has gathered quite a bit of fans now that he has a youtube video channel? He is almost a celebrity.

You started it.

[Shahrazad]

What did I start? The video channel was Dan's idea, and he's done 100% of the work. He deserves full credit.

I was thinking about you, Tomas. I was hoping you'd stop by so I can talk you into doing some searches. Can you get me the thread where David suggests a society where the unenlightened elderly are killed? I'll get you free tickets to Dan's next video concert, uhmmm, show.

[rebecca702]

Rebecca: I suggest you read the book because it shows where your ideology will lead.

Shahrazad: I haven't yet heard you say the same thing to male chauvinists.

Well, to be fair, she hasn't been presented with an equivalent male chauvinist scenario...yet. So let's give her a chance: Rebecca, what do you make of Ryan's vision as enunciated near the end of this post?

I think as science progresses, women and men as reproductive couples will become obsolete, and bio-engineering will be used to create genius on the planet, and the truths of masculinity/femininity will become very useful at that time in relationship to neuroscience, genetics and endocrinology. Women will be slowly phased out of existence, and men will be engineering totally different as well, the end result will probably be an asexual being, no longer recognizable as a man.

I don't have any beef with that scenario. It sounds like these changes would be growing out of greater and greater intelligence.

Will Rebecca call David a fascist? Does he "bother" him/her? Will he/she suggest that he read A Brave New World?

I appreciate you all bringing this up. I'm not 100% sure that David's not a fascist, because I don't fully understand his ideas about Woman, and I'm still reforming my ideas.

But it appears to me that (broadly) Shaz is saying do away with men (as people) and David is saying do away with Woman (as ideation). There is no value to Woman, except that She holds together the status quo as we know it. If Woman would no longer function, then I can envision a catastrophic breakdown of society, and yes, possibly over a long period of time women would die out due to not being an evolutionary necessity, and the species would somehow become asexual.

I suppose it goes back to what you consider fascism. If intelligence holds power (through natural processes) and not biological weapons in the hands of individuals, I don't think it's fascism.

If David, with a straight face, would say the solution is to kill all the women (doing this actively and not through natural processes), then yes he is a fascist. As it stands, I think he's merely placing value on one idea over another.

[mansman]

Dan,

No it wouldn't. It would just mean that women would have to start committing the crimes that men often do on their behalf.

Some females would start committing crimes, true. But the number of criminals would still be much lower than it is today, without men.

There'd be no rape, certainly, but broken hearts happen because people are stupid, not because men are bad. How come women never take any responsibility for their own delusions?

It is true that women also cause broken hearts, though not as often as men. I was mentioning this one as a side-benefit of having only one gender. I'll grant you that broken hearts are not entirely men's fault.

Oh, and a world without rape would certainly be desirable. I cannot even think of ten women who have never been raped. It is an extremely common crime.

There would likely be a lot of those if men disappeared.

There would be more, yes, but most women would not turn into lesbians. And we could also get rid of the lesbian gene, if it makes you feel better.

That's what abortion is for.

It's obviously not working because most children, especially in third world countries, are born to women who didn't plan for them. I wouldn't want to force dumb women to have abortions. The solution I propose is many times better.

Then who would do all the dangerous and horrible jobs that women by and large don't do? You think women would step up?

They sure would. And even if not, it would be a small price to pay for living in a man-free world.

Who is going to kill all the mice and big hairy spiders?

I can kill the spiders and scary cockroaches, and my dad's wife can kill the mice. Not long ago, I saw her crush a bat's bones with her hand. She showed no mercy. I was impressed.

This feels so wrong I thought to challenge some of these supposed facts.
One thing that comes to mind is how splendidly chimps get along when contained in a healthy community lacking any females at all.
Also with men, in all male communities, discontent drops sharply and crime all but disappears along with the females. Clearly, there is evidence to suggest that a world without women would in time, more than likely, become a paradise on earth compared to say the violent nature of present day USA.

Heartbreakes- how funny, while i agree being dumped may be more painful overall for the fairer sex, no way will i believe more women than men are dumped and betrayed, its more like 1 part women to 3 or 4 parts men at least in my part of the world. Here the women are in charge, control the courts and cops and lawyers, even the shrinks and other marriage counselors, and remain with their spouses ONLY so long as something better does not happen to come along. They can resist anything but temptation!
Plus their friends and sisters and modern rules no longer allow long-suffering, certainly not if they're the least bit unsatisfied. (i.e. now nearly all of them)

Rape, I cant even remember the last time someone was allegedly raped around here, and actually very few men are capable of such an act, most of which are currently locked up. I think you're not seeing it right because of womens' tendency to gather with others whom have similar problems and complaints.

Jobs, check out the television program "Dirty Jobs", 90% of these essential, dangerous, filthy, difficult, and slavelike jobs would never get accomplished if not for men. Your very world would come to a complete stop in a weeks time if men went extinct, you'ld all be crying and complaining and soon after tearing each others hair out, crime would sky-rocket! there would be complete chaos and nearly everyone remaining would go mad.
lil

Lesbians, like the world has never before seen! With or without genes therapy, if it happened today with so many sex-hungry females this place would become a huge orgy.
Besides, arent you aware that for millions of women sex is at least as important as it is to many horny men. Many women are now so addicted to sex and masturbation that they're having frequent spontaneous orgasms, going to doctors for help, loosing control of their bodies and lives.


Where has your thinking cap gone to...

M

[rebecca702]

Rebecca, hello there, could i ask a favor for myself and other newbies

I'm a newer bie than you are...

could you clear up this matter of your gender

Didn't realize there was a matter with my gender... although it would be fun to play games (*cough**cough*) with my identity, I'm not pulling any tricks, and yes I'm female and figured I'd be straightforward about it since the sex/gender issue is one of the primary ones I'm interested in discussing.

or perhaps repeat what you may have at one time shared with the group about your personal life, stuff like what or who brings you here to the forum, your specialty or occupation, sex age and country of residence and whatever else you'ld like to state or restate about yourself.

Wait, am I on Match.com?? Uh... I haven't previously shared publicly, but sure: I'm a hermit, I live with my brother, I work a job where I don't have to talk to anybody, I did come to the forum by way of the YouTube MenoftheInfinite channel, I'm in Wisconsin, US, late 20s. There you go.

The forum is entertaining, thought-provoking, and at times ridiculous. I'm actually amazed it's kept up for so long. Must be something of substance here. What or who brought you here?

[rebecca702]

One thing that comes to mind is how splendidly chimps get along when contained in a healthy community lacking any females at all.

I had a professor once mention that the ancient Greeks regarded male friendship as the highest form of human connection. It had something to do with the abundance of gender-segregated communal bath-type places, and philosophy halls, fostering deep friendships without women interfering. Of course the lines get blurred between friendship and homosexuality, but I wonder if there was a deeper significance. Did this fit in with their mythology somehow? Does anybody know more about this?

[mansman]

Rebecca: I suggest you read the book because it shows where your ideology will lead.

Shahrazad: I haven't yet heard you say the same thing to male chauvinists.

Well, to be fair, she hasn't been presented with an equivalent male chauvinist scenario...yet. So let's give her a chance: Rebecca, what do you make of Ryan's vision as enunciated near the end of this post?

I think as science progresses, women and men as reproductive couples will become obsolete, and bio-engineering will be used to create genius on the planet, and the truths of masculinity/femininity will become very useful at that time in relationship to neuroscience, genetics and endocrinology. Women will be slowly phased out of existence, and men will be engineering totally different as well, the end result will probably be an asexual being, no longer recognizable as a man.

I'm sure that I've read other similar proposals on this forum - some even more male chauvinist in nature (the ameliorating factor in this one is that the end population is not exactly all-male, although it is based on men) - but despite a lot of searching, this is the only one that I could find.

Some people might say thats a great dream but it's far more likely isnt it that the bio-engineers will not be making great geniuses (at least not for some time, if ever!) but more ordinary people like themselves, perhaps mostly women with just a few feminine yet intellectual men.

?What democracy is going to approve the likes of JQRS duplicated, right? Seems to me that the human race has got a very long way to go yet before it begins to realize the worth of wisdom and the look of wise men.

However with just a bit of lady luck hopefully, the wisest people will someday outsmart the rest and-- who knows!-- perhaps gain control of the replicators and punch out enough clones to overpower and overtake the many lost sheep.

Hey, weirder things have happened!
M

[mansman]

Rebecca, hello there, could i ask a favor for myself and other newbies

I'm a newer bie than you are...

could you clear up this matter of your gender

Didn't realize there was a matter with my gender... although it would be fun to play games (*cough**cough*) with my identity, I'm not pulling any tricks, and yes I'm female and figured I'd be straightforward about it since the sex/gender issue is one of the primary ones I'm interested in discussing.

or perhaps repeat what you may have at one time shared with the group about your personal life, stuff like what or who brings you here to the forum, your specialty or occupation, sex age and country of residence and whatever else you'ld like to state or restate about yourself.

Wait, am I on Match.com?? Uh... I haven't previously shared publicly, but sure: I'm a hermit, I live with my brother, I work a job where I don't have to talk to anybody, I did come to the forum by way of the YouTube MenoftheInfinite channel, I'm in Wisconsin, US, late 20s. There you go.

The forum is entertaining, thought-provoking, and at times ridiculous. I'm actually amazed it's kept up for so long. Must be something of substance here. What or who brought you here?

Yeah well that chronic miss-quoter nutcase said or implied as much, didnt he, about your gender anyway. Though i haven't really been paying close attention my initial sense is that your writing 'feels' somewhat masculine not sure if you're aware of this, or even if to say so offends you at all i certainly would hope you'ld rather take it as a compliment.
Ive been guided here by a close acquaintance myself.
All man, though at times i share a sentiment once so famously expressed by Elaine Benes "I dont know how you guys walk around with those things!"
Gravity and all, though it pales in comparison to a bloody monthly curse, albeit temporary.
Ok then, welcome and dont be shy, here you can say anything thats on your mind, only the most duplicitous ever get the can it seems.

M

[Dan Rowden]

mansman said (to Rebecca),

Perhaps you're of the Aussie clan, a groupie of the holy trinity.....

Oh my nature! I love it.

Have you noticed that Dan has gathered quite a bit of fans now that he has a youtube video channel? He is almost a celebrity.

You love the fact that he just insulted her? I think you both should feel embarrassed by your comments.

The video channel was Dan's idea, and he's done 100% of the work. He deserves full credit.

Actually Kevin had done 2 of the videos, so I can't take 100% credit, if credit is even the right word to use.