Schizophrenia - A Case Study ...
Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 8:33 am
Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment
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My reply was: "that's not how it works" because I took your statement to mean: "if psychiatry is doing such a bad job, then why aren't there more crazy people walking around (as seen in the video I posted)" - now, someone who doesn't know any better would assume that psychiatry is doing a great job, after all, 1% of the pop. is schizophrenic, so... where are they? Now that's fine, you have a goo point, but I think that there would be even fewer so-called schizophrenic people if psychiatry and its propaganda didn't exist - that's why I posted this: "A good example can be taken from cultures which haven't been modernized) I'd agree that they aren't exposed to the same kinds of stressors (media, etc)." It's a good example. Why else are there virtually no crazy people in countries which have no exposure to psychiatry...How many unmedicated schizophrenics have you seen?
Perhaps you'll fail to understand this (I apologize): "if a man has a superior ability to hear, then one can say that his ears (or ear drum, or the auditory part of the brain, etc) are more sensitive to sound. Get it? Furthermore, depending on the extent of this sensitivity, his superior hearing may cause problems...You seemed to imply that modern psychiatry was failing woman.
The psychiatry industry should undergo some sort of reform. Btw, I'm not talking about "other people", heck, there may very well be some that need to be lock up in a psych unit, I don't know... I'm just excluding myself from that group.What do you think should happen?
Schizophrenia is not about greater acuity of certain sensual or cognitive faculties (that's more autism); it's about - to put it crudely and rudely - batshit craziness."if a man has a superior ability to hear, then one can say that his ears (or ear drum, or the auditory part of the brain, etc) are more sensitive to sound. Get it? Furthermore, depending on the extent of this sensitivity, his superior hearing may cause problems...
You can't know for certain that they aren't in touch with something real that you are incapable of perceiving.Dan Rowden wrote:Schizophrenia is not about greater acuity of certain sensual or cognitive faculties (that's more autism); it's about - to put it crudely and rudely - batshit craziness.
Where are you getting this from?DivineIntercourse wrote: Why else are there virtually no crazy people in countries which have no exposure to psychiatry...
Cool. Please share.I've got in one of my Scientific American Mind mags a diagram of the common traits of all mental illnesses, I'll see if I can dig up the issue later.
I'm making it up! :) (joking)Trevor wrote:Where are you getting this from?
That was psychiatry! The difference is that now these methods have become more discrete and socially acceptable. For instance, instead of some guy going around and performing lobotomies with a scalpel (up the nose, on the side of the street - have you heard of that one?), they're using chemicals that damage the brain. I find it hard to believe that these side-effects weren't anticipated in the first place.Prior to psychiatry, we had a bunch of dehumanizing ways of dealing with madmen -- banishment, torture, exorcisms, imprisonment, slavery, and execution.
Well, there are exceptions. Nonetheless, I'm sure that 1 in 5 aren't getting brutalized!In countries without psychiatry, these methods are still used.
Psychiatry has only been around for a few decades. It had a really rough start, because doctors were still trapped on antiquated ideas like melancholy and sanguinity. And it changes rapidly: the psychiatry of today is very different from that of even ten years ago.DivineIntercourse wrote:That was psychiatry!
Mental illnesses get worse over time on their own.One thing I'm 100% certain of, but I just can't prove it: my symptoms became worse after I was diagnosed.
Dr. Walter Freeman, it was a surgical ice pick through the orbital.DivineIntercourse wrote:For instance, instead of some guy going around and performing lobotomies with a scalpel (up the nose, on the side of the street - have you heard of that one?)
That sucks. I did not know.Mental illnesses get worse over time on their own.
What it is today is something that gives many people who would otherwise be incoherent homeless pariahs the chance to control their thoughts.
Here it is, it was in the December 2007 issue of DiscoverShahrazad wrote:Animus,
Cool. Please share.I've got in one of my Scientific American Mind mags a diagram of the common traits of all mental illnesses, I'll see if I can dig up the issue later.
Actually, that's not altogether true. There are some forms of paranoia that one can know are pure imaginings. But if you take your argument literally, then you must believe that schizophrenics should be left alone and not medicated at all. Is that right? or, is it appropriate to medicate them and protect them from this potentially "real" experience?Jason wrote:You can't know for certain that they aren't in touch with something real that you are incapable of perceiving.Dan Rowden wrote:Schizophrenia is not about greater acuity of certain sensual or cognitive faculties (that's more autism); it's about - to put it crudely and rudely - batshit craziness.
Do you know what layer of Visual Striate this originates in? And does the signal bounce back from the Lateral Geniculate Nucleus in the Hypothalamus or the Retinal Ganglion Cells that form the Optic Nerve? If you don't know or have reference thats cool I just studied vision a lot and hadn't heard of this.Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:sometimes a signal will start in the brain and travel down the optic nerve, then bounce back up
Yeah you're right. For example, if someone's paranoia led them to make particular claims about me, but my own subjective experience didn't reflect those claims, then I would be certain that they were deluded. Still, I'm sure schizophrenics make a lot of claims that aren't absolutely disprovable, just like many claims about god and miracles and fairies aren't absolutely disprovable. It's a matter of degree - all my experience, knowledge and common sense make me strongly suspect that these people are having delusions and hallucinations, but I couldn't prove it beyond absolutely all doubt in many cases.Dan Rowden wrote:Actually, that's not altogether true. There are some forms of paranoia that one can know are pure imaginings.Jason wrote:You can't know for certain that they aren't in touch with something real that you are incapable of perceiving.Dan Rowden wrote:Schizophrenia is not about greater acuity of certain sensual or cognitive faculties (that's more autism); it's about - to put it crudely and rudely - batshit craziness.
I haven't thought too much about these particular issues, but broadly speaking I think I'd favour harm minimization along with a respect for self determination. Those guiding principles would result in me supporting medicating in many scenarios.But if you take your argument literally, then you must believe that schizophrenics should be left alone and not medicated at all. Is that right? or, is it appropriate to medicate them and protect them from this potentially "real" experience?
How so? Btw, this little metaphor captures my thoughts well enough: if a serial killer in prison becomes a born-again-Christian, should he be let loose, or trusted, or ...? Perhaps it's true, but I still wouldn't turn my back to him (I'm aware that this is an extreme view, but it would take too long otherwise)Trevor wrote:the psychiatry of today is very different from that of even ten years ago.
That's a small part of it. There are extremes and exceptions. For one, I could say something like: upon becoming coherent, the previously "incoherent homeless pariah" killed himself, but then again, maybe he'd end up changing his life and becoming a member of society, etc...What it is today is something that gives many people who would otherwise be incoherent homeless pariahs the chance to control their thoughts.
The same can be true for the opposite happening. What happened to me was too much of a coincidence to just brush away (or whatever). The unfortunate thing is that because of this diagnosis, people aren't going to believe me, they're going to make presumptions and not take me seriously (stigma). Wait. Actually, that wouldn't be so bad. The real problem is that "I'm" the one that does this to myself (constantly) because of this diagnosis. I'm sure that all this (posts, etc) is about myself trying to justify my own sanity and intelligence (or lack thereof). People say: "don't let others' bring you down" - well, the only way to make that happen is to be diagnosed as sane, but that won't happen unless I lie and act during the mental evaluation. If I lie then that doubt will still exist for me. After all, wouldn't an insane person think he's sane IF he's actually insane, and if all this propaganda BS is true then I'm fked because I'm not taking my meds. I'm holding back, this is my security blanket - it's gotten to the point where it chokes me yet I cannot let go - then I'm forced to think to myself: what if you're not holding back, what if you're running on full capacity and still not making the grade, what if all this bogus mental illness mumbo-jumbo is just a cover up for the truth, but then I try to remember how it was before the drugs/illness and it just doesn't seem possible, I was normal and I was definitely smart, but then, but then, but then, etc etc etc... It's BS, but for some reason it seems reasonable at the time. It brings comfort, it brings pain. It's a change. The diagnosis didn't help my situation, if you aren't willing to believe anything else, at least believe that.Mental illnesses get worse over time on their own.
Ah-ha! Er, I wrote scalpel, but meant scraper... Hmm... Icepick, eh?Animus wrote:Dr. Walter Freeman, it was a surgical ice pick through the orbital.
A little voice tells me that it was known all along (by evil).Of course, the frontal lobes are now known to be the locus of self-control and forethought.
I think you got it the other way around. A small % aren't very treatable.Shahrazad wrote:I think a small percentage of mentally ill people are given a diagnosis that is very treatable. Consider yourself lucky.
It's more complex than that! The truth may be simple in the same way that it's simple to build a complex skyscraper (bit by bit), but it takes too much time. That's what books are for.Actually, that's not altogether true. There are some forms of paranoia that one can know are pure imaginings. But if you take your argument literally, then you must believe that schizophrenics should be left alone and not medicated at all. Is that right? or, is it appropriate to medicate them and protect them from this potentially "real" experience?
You've stated in the past that these fields (neuroscience, psychiatry, etc) are still in their infancy, so I wouldn't invest too much time on such thoughts. Btw, I can tell the difference between a hallucination and the real thing in the same way that you aren't mistaking a concept for reality.Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:A main component of schizophrenia is that the sensory pathways in the neurosystem are not one-way. Normally sensory input starts from outside the body - for example, light bounces off an object and lands in our eye, sending a signal up our optic nerve and into our brain, which interprets what that particular light pattern means. It's a one-way process - out-to-in.
In-to-out happens on other pathways, like when a thought forms in our brain to move our hand to the keyboard, and sends a signal to particular muscles to relax and contract in such a way as to make that happen.
In schizophrenia, in-to-out (bi-directional, actually) happens on pathways that are supposed to only be out-to-in (such as sight and hearing). Sometimes a signal starts in the brain and goes backwards, then bounces back in. For example, in addition to seeing the normal way, sometimes a signal will start in the brain and travel down the optic nerve, then bounce back up, and get interpreted right along with the signals that are being transmitted in response to light. Fortunately in many cases, there is some difference between the appearance of those things that started as a signal in the brain and those things which started as a signal from the outside. Unfortunately, this isn't always the case.
Humans naturally want to make sense of the world, and empirical data (what you see, hear, etc. for yourself) is considered the gold standard of reality. If a schizophrenic sees/hears something that others don't, it is a very human response to believe that it is there and others just can't see/hear it - thus leading to the conclusion that their sight or hearing is better than that of others. Additional conclusions may be drawn to further explain why not everyone sees these things, so under the circumstances it might even be reasonable for the schizophrenic who isn't aware of the disease process to conclude that these are ghosts, aliens, or interdimensional beings. By understanding what is actually going on, you have a better chance of staying in touch with reality.
Sher- not all mental illness gets worse over time, but schizophrenia and bipolar are two that do get worse over time. Some conditions can be reversed, and some tend to run a course in a specific time frame.
Sure, it does. Here's a little experiment for you: close your eyes and imagine that you're on a beach, look out into the distance, feel the warm air and the cool breeze, seagulls, etc etc etc... Now, do the same thing with your eyes open, what happens? Same thing. Schizophrenics get confused with this or it maybe something else. I have many theories. Not all are too far off.Animus wrote:I think the phenomenology of most hallucinations will be on the order of imagined images which are represented by the same activation patterns of real stimuli. However if what you are suggesting is true then the returned signal could stimulate the V1 cells into re-presenting the stimuli as real. Essentially acting as an external stimulant instead of a memory retrieved from elsewhere. This could explain why the schizophrenic's hallucinations appear real to them. That makes sense.
What if someone tries to harm themselve's as a result of being diagnosed with a brain deficit? There's always that flip side. And because of this I'm forced to adopt extreme views.Jason wrote:I haven't thought too much about these particular issues, but broadly speaking I think I'd favour harm minimization along with a respect for self determination. Those guiding principles would result in me supporting medicating in many scenarios.
Maybe this isn't very relevant or related, in any case it's quite interesting: Otoacoustic emissions.Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:In schizophrenia, in-to-out (bi-directional, actually) happens on pathways that are supposed to only be out-to-in (such as sight and hearing).