Schizophrenia - A Case Study ...

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
DivineIntercourse
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Schizophrenia - A Case Study ...

Post by DivineIntercourse »

Take a look at this!

Psychiatry at its best.
.
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Dan Rowden
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Re: Schizophrenia - A Case Study ...

Post by Dan Rowden »

How many unmedicated schizophrenics have you seen?
DivineIntercourse
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Re: Schizophrenia - A Case Study ...

Post by DivineIntercourse »

That's not how it works.

What do you think would happen if the mental health industry never existed? (A good example can be taken from cultures which haven't been modernized) I'd agree that they aren't exposed to the same kinds of stressors (media, etc), but what does it mean to be sensitive... Is it really a weakness? Are people, those who notice and try to understand all this BS being thrown around by society, really mentally dysfunctional?

"It's like trying to fix a broken watch with a sledgehammer" <--- I don't know if I got this from somewhere, but this is what I told my caseworker the last time I saw her. She responded with: "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink."

:)
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Dan Rowden
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Re: Schizophrenia - A Case Study ...

Post by Dan Rowden »

Your reply is a complete non sequitur. How many unmedicated schizophrenics have you seen? You seemed to imply that modern psychiatry was failing that woman. What do you think should happen?
DivineIntercourse
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Re: Schizophrenia - A Case Study ...

Post by DivineIntercourse »

How many unmedicated schizophrenics have you seen?
My reply was: "that's not how it works" because I took your statement to mean: "if psychiatry is doing such a bad job, then why aren't there more crazy people walking around (as seen in the video I posted)" - now, someone who doesn't know any better would assume that psychiatry is doing a great job, after all, 1% of the pop. is schizophrenic, so... where are they? Now that's fine, you have a goo point, but I think that there would be even fewer so-called schizophrenic people if psychiatry and its propaganda didn't exist - that's why I posted this: "A good example can be taken from cultures which haven't been modernized) I'd agree that they aren't exposed to the same kinds of stressors (media, etc)." It's a good example. Why else are there virtually no crazy people in countries which have no exposure to psychiatry...
You seemed to imply that modern psychiatry was failing woman.
Perhaps you'll fail to understand this (I apologize): "if a man has a superior ability to hear, then one can say that his ears (or ear drum, or the auditory part of the brain, etc) are more sensitive to sound. Get it? Furthermore, depending on the extent of this sensitivity, his superior hearing may cause problems...
What do you think should happen?
The psychiatry industry should undergo some sort of reform. Btw, I'm not talking about "other people", heck, there may very well be some that need to be lock up in a psych unit, I don't know... I'm just excluding myself from that group.
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Dan Rowden
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Re: Schizophrenia - A Case Study ...

Post by Dan Rowden »

Schizophrenia exists on a sliding scale and has variations. It's not a generic thing. There's no single approach. Each case is different. Thus far we only have limited ways to deal with the illness. They all suck, but suck less than the illness itself in the vast majority of cases.
"if a man has a superior ability to hear, then one can say that his ears (or ear drum, or the auditory part of the brain, etc) are more sensitive to sound. Get it? Furthermore, depending on the extent of this sensitivity, his superior hearing may cause problems...
Schizophrenia is not about greater acuity of certain sensual or cognitive faculties (that's more autism); it's about - to put it crudely and rudely - batshit craziness.

Psychiatry doesn't need reform so much as the mental health system itself.
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Re: Schizophrenia - A Case Study ...

Post by Animus »

I've known a few Schizophrenics on or off medication. They aren't your typical people. They are typical in many ways, but they do believe and speak rather asinine stuff. The one's I've known also had impulse control issues. They maintained a fairly pleasent demeanor but imposed on others a lot and often knew they were doing it and simultaneously didn't want to. Two of them developed ludicrous phobias during the time I knew them. One became deathly afriad of closets and the other orange juice.

I don't know much about Schizophrenia per se, but I know that researchers are finding all mental illnesses share common origins. My primary area of interest is the Prefrontal Cortices, Decision-Making and Criminality. I've got in one of my Scientific American Mind mags a diagram of the common traits of all mental illnesses, I'll see if I can dig up the issue later.
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Jason
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Re: Schizophrenia - A Case Study ...

Post by Jason »

Dan Rowden wrote:Schizophrenia is not about greater acuity of certain sensual or cognitive faculties (that's more autism); it's about - to put it crudely and rudely - batshit craziness.
You can't know for certain that they aren't in touch with something real that you are incapable of perceiving.
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Re: Schizophrenia - A Case Study ...

Post by Trevor Salyzyn »

DivineIntercourse wrote: Why else are there virtually no crazy people in countries which have no exposure to psychiatry...
Where are you getting this from?

Prior to psychiatry, we had a bunch of dehumanizing ways of dealing with madmen -- banishment, torture, exorcisms, imprisonment, slavery, and execution. In countries without psychiatry, these methods are still used.
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Shahrazad
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Re: Schizophrenia - A Case Study ...

Post by Shahrazad »

Animus,
I've got in one of my Scientific American Mind mags a diagram of the common traits of all mental illnesses, I'll see if I can dig up the issue later.
Cool. Please share.
DivineIntercourse
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Re: Schizophrenia - A Case Study ...

Post by DivineIntercourse »

Trevor wrote:Where are you getting this from?
I'm making it up! :) (joking)
Prior to psychiatry, we had a bunch of dehumanizing ways of dealing with madmen -- banishment, torture, exorcisms, imprisonment, slavery, and execution.
That was psychiatry! The difference is that now these methods have become more discrete and socially acceptable. For instance, instead of some guy going around and performing lobotomies with a scalpel (up the nose, on the side of the street - have you heard of that one?), they're using chemicals that damage the brain. I find it hard to believe that these side-effects weren't anticipated in the first place.
In countries without psychiatry, these methods are still used.
Well, there are exceptions. Nonetheless, I'm sure that 1 in 5 aren't getting brutalized!

One thing I'm 100% certain of, but I just can't prove it: my symptoms became worse after I was diagnosed.
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Trevor Salyzyn
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Re: Schizophrenia - A Case Study ...

Post by Trevor Salyzyn »

DivineIntercourse wrote:That was psychiatry!
Psychiatry has only been around for a few decades. It had a really rough start, because doctors were still trapped on antiquated ideas like melancholy and sanguinity. And it changes rapidly: the psychiatry of today is very different from that of even ten years ago.

What it is today is something that gives many people who would otherwise be incoherent homeless pariahs the chance to control their thoughts.
One thing I'm 100% certain of, but I just can't prove it: my symptoms became worse after I was diagnosed.
Mental illnesses get worse over time on their own.
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Re: Schizophrenia - A Case Study ...

Post by Animus »

DivineIntercourse wrote:For instance, instead of some guy going around and performing lobotomies with a scalpel (up the nose, on the side of the street - have you heard of that one?)
Dr. Walter Freeman, it was a surgical ice pick through the orbital.

Freeman's work initially gained praise but was frowned upon rather quickly, that didn't stop Freeman from travelling the States lobotomizing people. At the end of his career he visited some of his patience to try to prove to himself he did good work.

The thing about lobotomies/leucotomies (Freeman/Moniz) is that they didn't have any other way to treat severe depression besides Electroshock Therapy and Lobotomies/Leucotomies seemed to have promising results, the original depression seemed to outweigh the side-effects of Freeman's lobotomy. Of course, the frontal lobes are now known to be the locus of self-control and forethought.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/lobotomist/program/
Last edited by Animus on Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:40 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Shahrazad
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Re: Schizophrenia - A Case Study ...

Post by Shahrazad »

Mental illnesses get worse over time on their own.
That sucks. I did not know.
What it is today is something that gives many people who would otherwise be incoherent homeless pariahs the chance to control their thoughts.


I think a small percentage of mentally ill people are given a diagnosis that is very treatable. Consider yourself lucky.
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Re: Schizophrenia - A Case Study ...

Post by Animus »

Shahrazad wrote:Animus,
I've got in one of my Scientific American Mind mags a diagram of the common traits of all mental illnesses, I'll see if I can dig up the issue later.
Cool. Please share.
Here it is, it was in the December 2007 issue of Discover

http://discovermagazine.com/photos/six- ... -of-autism

The map is available on the above link.a

Additional information published in Discover:

The Big Three
Psychiatrists have long suspected that schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, and autism have similar genetic underpinnings, but this map is the first to demonstrate just how much common ground the three diseases share. The results suggest that genetic variations could predispose a person to all three disorders.

Fighting Cancer
Most of the correlations on the map are positive, hinting that the same genetic mutations can cause more than one disorder. But some diseases were found to compete with on another. Women with breast cancer, for example, were not likely to have schizophrenia or bipolar disorder, and vice versa. Andrey Rzhetsky, who led the group that created the map, says this makes sense, Schizophrenia and bipolar disorder involve abnormal cell death (in the brain), while breast cancer involves abnormal cell growth.

Hostile Takeover

Judging from the amount of overlap with infectious diseases like tuberculosis and AIDS, the same genes that dictate susceptibility to infection could also influence susceptibility to the big three neurological disorders. Alternatively, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, and autism could be collateral damage from an infecting pathogen.

Mutiny of the Body
Some of the bubbles on this map represent autoimmune disorders like rheumatoid arthritis. With these, the immune system identifies the body's own cells as foreign and launches an attack. Rzhetsky speculates that in some cases, the three neurodevelopmental diseases could be collateral damage from a biological mutiny of the neurons.

Blame the Bottle
Alcoholism regularly occurred with both schizophrenia and bipolar disorder. But "alcoholism also tightly correlates with other psychiatric traits" like depression, Rzhetsky says. Do the illnesses and alcohol dependency stem from the same genes, or is on disease caused by the other? Rzhetsky hopes the map - which raises such questions - will inspire future research and eventually answers.

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Dan Rowden
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Re: Schizophrenia - A Case Study ...

Post by Dan Rowden »

Jason wrote:
Dan Rowden wrote:Schizophrenia is not about greater acuity of certain sensual or cognitive faculties (that's more autism); it's about - to put it crudely and rudely - batshit craziness.
You can't know for certain that they aren't in touch with something real that you are incapable of perceiving.
Actually, that's not altogether true. There are some forms of paranoia that one can know are pure imaginings. But if you take your argument literally, then you must believe that schizophrenics should be left alone and not medicated at all. Is that right? or, is it appropriate to medicate them and protect them from this potentially "real" experience?
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Re: Schizophrenia - A Case Study ...

Post by Shahrazad »

Extremely interesting info. Thanks, Animus.
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Re: Schizophrenia - A Case Study ...

Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

A main component of schizophrenia is that the sensory pathways in the neurosystem are not one-way. Normally sensory input starts from outside the body - for example, light bounces off an object and lands in our eye, sending a signal up our optic nerve and into our brain, which interprets what that particular light pattern means. It's a one-way process - out-to-in.

In-to-out happens on other pathways, like when a thought forms in our brain to move our hand to the keyboard, and sends a signal to particular muscles to relax and contract in such a way as to make that happen.

In schizophrenia, in-to-out (bi-directional, actually) happens on pathways that are supposed to only be out-to-in (such as sight and hearing). Sometimes a signal starts in the brain and goes backwards, then bounces back in. For example, in addition to seeing the normal way, sometimes a signal will start in the brain and travel down the optic nerve, then bounce back up, and get interpreted right along with the signals that are being transmitted in response to light. Fortunately in many cases, there is some difference between the appearance of those things that started as a signal in the brain and those things which started as a signal from the outside. Unfortunately, this isn't always the case.

Humans naturally want to make sense of the world, and empirical data (what you see, hear, etc. for yourself) is considered the gold standard of reality. If a schizophrenic sees/hears something that others don't, it is a very human response to believe that it is there and others just can't see/hear it - thus leading to the conclusion that their sight or hearing is better than that of others. Additional conclusions may be drawn to further explain why not everyone sees these things, so under the circumstances it might even be reasonable for the schizophrenic who isn't aware of the disease process to conclude that these are ghosts, aliens, or interdimensional beings. By understanding what is actually going on, you have a better chance of staying in touch with reality.

Sher- not all mental illness gets worse over time, but schizophrenia and bipolar are two that do get worse over time. Some conditions can be reversed, and some tend to run a course in a specific time frame.
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Re: Schizophrenia - A Case Study ...

Post by Animus »

Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:sometimes a signal will start in the brain and travel down the optic nerve, then bounce back up
Do you know what layer of Visual Striate this originates in? And does the signal bounce back from the Lateral Geniculate Nucleus in the Hypothalamus or the Retinal Ganglion Cells that form the Optic Nerve? If you don't know or have reference thats cool I just studied vision a lot and hadn't heard of this.

I think the phenomenology of most hallucinations will be on the order of imagined images which are represented by the same activation patterns of real stimuli. However if what you are suggesting is true then the returned signal could stimulate the V1 cells into re-presenting the stimuli as real. Essentially acting as an external stimulant instead of a memory retrieved from elsewhere. This could explain why the schizophrenic's hallucinations appear real to them. That makes sense.
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Re: Schizophrenia - A Case Study ...

Post by Jason »

Dan Rowden wrote:
Jason wrote:
Dan Rowden wrote:Schizophrenia is not about greater acuity of certain sensual or cognitive faculties (that's more autism); it's about - to put it crudely and rudely - batshit craziness.
You can't know for certain that they aren't in touch with something real that you are incapable of perceiving.
Actually, that's not altogether true. There are some forms of paranoia that one can know are pure imaginings.
Yeah you're right. For example, if someone's paranoia led them to make particular claims about me, but my own subjective experience didn't reflect those claims, then I would be certain that they were deluded. Still, I'm sure schizophrenics make a lot of claims that aren't absolutely disprovable, just like many claims about god and miracles and fairies aren't absolutely disprovable. It's a matter of degree - all my experience, knowledge and common sense make me strongly suspect that these people are having delusions and hallucinations, but I couldn't prove it beyond absolutely all doubt in many cases.
But if you take your argument literally, then you must believe that schizophrenics should be left alone and not medicated at all. Is that right? or, is it appropriate to medicate them and protect them from this potentially "real" experience?
I haven't thought too much about these particular issues, but broadly speaking I think I'd favour harm minimization along with a respect for self determination. Those guiding principles would result in me supporting medicating in many scenarios.
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Re: Schizophrenia - A Case Study ...

Post by Animus »

If the Schizophrenic was seeing objects on the standard light spectrum because they only have 3 cones for colour vision spanning the typical Red, Green and Blue spectrum, then any other individual with similar retinal capabilities should also perceive said objects.
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Re: Schizophrenia - A Case Study ...

Post by DivineIntercourse »

Trevor wrote:the psychiatry of today is very different from that of even ten years ago.
How so? Btw, this little metaphor captures my thoughts well enough: if a serial killer in prison becomes a born-again-Christian, should he be let loose, or trusted, or ...? Perhaps it's true, but I still wouldn't turn my back to him (I'm aware that this is an extreme view, but it would take too long otherwise)
What it is today is something that gives many people who would otherwise be incoherent homeless pariahs the chance to control their thoughts.
That's a small part of it. There are extremes and exceptions. For one, I could say something like: upon becoming coherent, the previously "incoherent homeless pariah" killed himself, but then again, maybe he'd end up changing his life and becoming a member of society, etc...
Mental illnesses get worse over time on their own.
The same can be true for the opposite happening. What happened to me was too much of a coincidence to just brush away (or whatever). The unfortunate thing is that because of this diagnosis, people aren't going to believe me, they're going to make presumptions and not take me seriously (stigma). Wait. Actually, that wouldn't be so bad. The real problem is that "I'm" the one that does this to myself (constantly) because of this diagnosis. I'm sure that all this (posts, etc) is about myself trying to justify my own sanity and intelligence (or lack thereof). People say: "don't let others' bring you down" - well, the only way to make that happen is to be diagnosed as sane, but that won't happen unless I lie and act during the mental evaluation. If I lie then that doubt will still exist for me. After all, wouldn't an insane person think he's sane IF he's actually insane, and if all this propaganda BS is true then I'm fked because I'm not taking my meds. I'm holding back, this is my security blanket - it's gotten to the point where it chokes me yet I cannot let go - then I'm forced to think to myself: what if you're not holding back, what if you're running on full capacity and still not making the grade, what if all this bogus mental illness mumbo-jumbo is just a cover up for the truth, but then I try to remember how it was before the drugs/illness and it just doesn't seem possible, I was normal and I was definitely smart, but then, but then, but then, etc etc etc... It's BS, but for some reason it seems reasonable at the time. It brings comfort, it brings pain. It's a change. The diagnosis didn't help my situation, if you aren't willing to believe anything else, at least believe that.

Who in their right mind would ignore a diagnosis? I didn't, and look what happened.

Trevor, unless you get incoherently personal about your experiences with mental illness, I cannot otherwise justify my thoughts to you, because I know where you're coming from. To me, I imagine that you went crazy, were put on meds and got better, forgot about your past and stayed on your meds. Good for you.
Animus wrote:Dr. Walter Freeman, it was a surgical ice pick through the orbital.
Ah-ha! Er, I wrote scalpel, but meant scraper... Hmm... Icepick, eh?
Of course, the frontal lobes are now known to be the locus of self-control and forethought.
A little voice tells me that it was known all along (by evil).
Shahrazad wrote:I think a small percentage of mentally ill people are given a diagnosis that is very treatable. Consider yourself lucky.
I think you got it the other way around. A small % aren't very treatable.
Actually, that's not altogether true. There are some forms of paranoia that one can know are pure imaginings. But if you take your argument literally, then you must believe that schizophrenics should be left alone and not medicated at all. Is that right? or, is it appropriate to medicate them and protect them from this potentially "real" experience?
It's more complex than that! The truth may be simple in the same way that it's simple to build a complex skyscraper (bit by bit), but it takes too much time. That's what books are for.
Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:A main component of schizophrenia is that the sensory pathways in the neurosystem are not one-way. Normally sensory input starts from outside the body - for example, light bounces off an object and lands in our eye, sending a signal up our optic nerve and into our brain, which interprets what that particular light pattern means. It's a one-way process - out-to-in.

In-to-out happens on other pathways, like when a thought forms in our brain to move our hand to the keyboard, and sends a signal to particular muscles to relax and contract in such a way as to make that happen.

In schizophrenia, in-to-out (bi-directional, actually) happens on pathways that are supposed to only be out-to-in (such as sight and hearing). Sometimes a signal starts in the brain and goes backwards, then bounces back in. For example, in addition to seeing the normal way, sometimes a signal will start in the brain and travel down the optic nerve, then bounce back up, and get interpreted right along with the signals that are being transmitted in response to light. Fortunately in many cases, there is some difference between the appearance of those things that started as a signal in the brain and those things which started as a signal from the outside. Unfortunately, this isn't always the case.

Humans naturally want to make sense of the world, and empirical data (what you see, hear, etc. for yourself) is considered the gold standard of reality. If a schizophrenic sees/hears something that others don't, it is a very human response to believe that it is there and others just can't see/hear it - thus leading to the conclusion that their sight or hearing is better than that of others. Additional conclusions may be drawn to further explain why not everyone sees these things, so under the circumstances it might even be reasonable for the schizophrenic who isn't aware of the disease process to conclude that these are ghosts, aliens, or interdimensional beings. By understanding what is actually going on, you have a better chance of staying in touch with reality.

Sher- not all mental illness gets worse over time, but schizophrenia and bipolar are two that do get worse over time. Some conditions can be reversed, and some tend to run a course in a specific time frame.
You've stated in the past that these fields (neuroscience, psychiatry, etc) are still in their infancy, so I wouldn't invest too much time on such thoughts. Btw, I can tell the difference between a hallucination and the real thing in the same way that you aren't mistaking a concept for reality.
Animus wrote:I think the phenomenology of most hallucinations will be on the order of imagined images which are represented by the same activation patterns of real stimuli. However if what you are suggesting is true then the returned signal could stimulate the V1 cells into re-presenting the stimuli as real. Essentially acting as an external stimulant instead of a memory retrieved from elsewhere. This could explain why the schizophrenic's hallucinations appear real to them. That makes sense.
Sure, it does. Here's a little experiment for you: close your eyes and imagine that you're on a beach, look out into the distance, feel the warm air and the cool breeze, seagulls, etc etc etc... Now, do the same thing with your eyes open, what happens? Same thing. Schizophrenics get confused with this or it maybe something else. I have many theories. Not all are too far off.
Jason wrote:I haven't thought too much about these particular issues, but broadly speaking I think I'd favour harm minimization along with a respect for self determination. Those guiding principles would result in me supporting medicating in many scenarios.
What if someone tries to harm themselve's as a result of being diagnosed with a brain deficit? There's always that flip side. And because of this I'm forced to adopt extreme views.
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Re: Schizophrenia - A Case Study ...

Post by Jason »

Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:In schizophrenia, in-to-out (bi-directional, actually) happens on pathways that are supposed to only be out-to-in (such as sight and hearing).
Maybe this isn't very relevant or related, in any case it's quite interesting: Otoacoustic emissions.
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Re: Schizophrenia - A Case Study ...

Post by DivineIntercourse »

My mom tells me that she can see the sickness in my eyes. I guess that I look odd at times, but it's not always present. A few other oddities: I think my pupils are larger than average and when I look in the bathroom mirror (it's bright in there), my pupils contract and expand in rapid successions. It seems as if I can control their movement by will. I wonder if this is normal.
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Re: Schizophrenia - A Case Study ...

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Nothing about you is normal, DI.
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