Why Value Absolute Truth?

[Matt Gregory]

From the "To QSR: Is There Peace in Enlightenment?" thread:

Dave Hodges wrote:

Forget about enlightenment.

Seek after truth - not for what you will get out of it - but simply because it is truth. It's the right thing to do. It may not bring you happiness. There are no guarantees. But the right thing to do will always be the right thing to do.

Kevin Solway wrote:

Turbatio wrote:

are there times when you think that you would have been better off had you not set off on this journey to begin with - i.e. was the amount of time and toil it took to get where you are - was it worth it? Or do you sometimes wish you had spent that time doing something else?

To me, there's nothing more important than knowing the truth.

I know this has been asked a million times, but it's just not clear to me. Why should we value absolute truth?

Don't we all just want to be happy? If so, if that's the reason that we strive for anything at all and that's the reason we continue living, what does absolute truth bring to the table?

Of all the things we can choose to learn about, there's this absolute truth thing sitting there on the shelf. What makes it any different from the other things we can learn about? We shouldn't I learn about, say, boating? Then I can have fun sailing! I can't go sailing if all I know is absolute truth. I can't do anything if all I know is that. So what's the point?

Who cares if we're right or wrong? Being right doesn't put food on the table. Most of the time, being a good liar and a con man will get you much further than speaking the truth, so why should truth even enter our consciousness?

Kevin wrote at one point that in regards to the long-term survival of the human race, our best odds lie with wisdom as opposed to ignorance. But on what basis can that argument be supported? Millions of years of evolution of dumb animals show otherwise. If we ignore the quality of life and just concern ourselves with enough quantity of life to meet the condition of survival, then I think we could probably screw up quite a bit before our survival is terminally threatened. We can be pretty ingenious and wisdom can't lay claim to the invention of one bit of technology whatsoever.

On the other hand, if the quality of life is what we want, does wisdom help us in that regard? Every historical account of sages points to the exact opposite of quality of life. They were all dirt poor and they were all either rejected or ignored by society and their activities led to no material profit whatsoever. Did they do anything to benefit society, like feed the poor or care for the sick? The answer is no. No sage in history has ever done any of that. Wisdom looks more like a mental disease.

So, again, what's the point?

[Kevin Solway]

I know this has been asked a million times, but it's just not clear to me. Why should we value absolute truth?

You would only value it if you were dissatisfied with anything less.

And you would be dissatisfied with anything less if you didn't like being proven wrong, or if you didn't like making a fool of yourself, or if you didn't like experiencing avoidable suffering.

Don't we all just want to be happy? If so, if that's the reason that we strive for anything at all and that's the reason we continue living, what does absolute truth bring to the table?

See above.

Of all the things we can choose to learn about, there's this absolute truth thing sitting there on the shelf. What makes it any different from the other things we can learn about?

The only alternative to absolute truth is scientific "truth", and it's not very satisfying at all.

It's like the difference between a proper meal and an old boot to chew on.

We shouldn't I learn about, say, boating? Then I can have fun sailing!

You would do so if you found it more satisfying than anything else.

I can't go sailing if all I know is absolute truth. I can't do anything if all I know is that. So what's the point?

Absolute truth isn't all you would know. You would also know ordinary scientific truths.

You can become a rocket scientist if you want to, and help humanity to colonize space.

Who cares if we're right or wrong?

Only yourself.

Being right doesn't put food on the table.

But it feels good. And while it might not put much food on the table right now, in the long term you can reap a harvest.

Kevin wrote at one point that in regards to the long-term survival of the human race, our best odds lie with wisdom as opposed to ignorance. But on what basis can that argument be supported? Millions of years of evolution of dumb animals show otherwise.

Not really. Dumb animals don't cope too well with their planet being hit by a large comet. They are too dumb to move somewhere else before the comet hits.

If we ignore the quality of life and just concern ourselves with enough quantity of life to meet the condition of survival, then I think we could probably screw up quite a bit before our survival is terminally threatened. We can be pretty ingenious and wisdom can't lay claim to the invention of one bit of technology whatsoever.

There is a degree of wisdom in the very fact that we fund the institution of science, and train scientists.

There is a degree of wisdom in the fact that we don't immediately kill unusual people, which gives them the chance to invent things.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

... Wisdom looks more like a mental disease.

So, again, what's the point?

All disease, deformities, freak mutations of mind or body always have paved the road, of all development, all change, all evolution. Including, especially all the failures.

Since truth is its own standard, there's no way to reason out a certain condition for success, however you'd define it. That's why one has to find one's own truth, ideally.

[Nick]

If one comes to know the truth about something, anything at all, it would be impossible not to value it to some extent, if for no other reason than the fact that it isn't false. I think that's the nature of consciousness. Comprehension and immersion in truth builds and alters consciousness in a way that, by necessity, it discards what is false. If one comprehends and immerses one's self in truth, but still values what is false, that's what I would call a mental disease.

Just think, if anyone else knew the truth, they would be doing the same thing as every other sage.

[Ryan Sepulvado]

Matt Gregory, bravo! I rarely witness intelligence amongst people who say they're intelligent. What value does claiming intelligence have? Well, it may help you acquire a mate.
However, females are not attracted to a man with oodles of knowledge, nor a man who seeks truth.

They're attracted to men who know what they need to know, and who understand that they are perfect, as a human, with that realization. (the latter is not necessary, but still desirable)
You must understand why I focus on a females desires. A man desires desirability.
And of course, desirability has value. It is value. Because the factors in an equation of purpose consist of ovum and semen. Humans don't desire happiness. They desire life, and thus safety, and procreation.

Life is not to be the means to happiness. Happiness is an emotion to help humans survive; as fear and anger. We are happy, so that we can live. Happiness aids us, but is never a fundamental desire. There is no such entity as meaningless happiness. If you are not happy, it's because your brain believes it should not produce that emotional juice. If you are, then your brain approves of what you're doing.

OOH, but you can alter that of which your brain approves. Do you know what masochism is? I'll tell you what it is! Awesome! ... Brains are willing to change themselves if they are convinced a thing is favorable. Everyone should try self-manipulation. They should, because it's what I want. And I only want things to be as I want them. I DIGRESS. But truly, I don't. I'm achieving my purpose for this communication beautifully.

Anyway. Bravo.


ps

I forgot to answer. Most perceptions, and things that have yet to be perceived, are worthless. Your brain stores that which it considers to be important as memory.

You ask what is the point of acquiring some silly conception as absolute truth. (paraphrase)
People who do that are confused. It is simple, and true. Life is easy, but for various reasons which are irrelevant in this moment, humans attempt to solve complex thoughts.

If some day you are able, you may like to ask a person who desires that which has been mentioned, "why?". You will become aware that they don't have a respectable reason. (a practical reason) These organisms are confused ones.

[DHodges]

However, females are not attracted to a man with oodles of knowledge, nor a man who seeks truth.

Maybe you need to hang out with a better class of women.

And of course, desirability has value. It is value. Because the factors in an equation of purpose consist of ovum and semen. Humans don't desire happiness. They desire life, and thus safety, and procreation.

Oh. Never mind.

[Isaac]

If one comes to know the truth about something, anything at all, it would be impossible not to value it to some extent, if for no other reason than the fact that it isn't false. I think that's the nature of consciousness. Comprehension and immersion in truth builds and alters consciousness in a way that, by necessity, it discards what is false. If one comprehends and immerses one's self in truth, but still values what is false, that's what I would call a mental disease.

Just think, if anyone else knew the truth, they would be doing the same thing as every other sage.

That's the problem with you guys on this forum. You don't think far enough to see that each person needs a profession, a line of work which goes toward increased development. Mining ores, engineering robotics and buildings, programming, troubleshooting, agriculture, janitors, plumbers, you name it - we need people to do different things. Not everyone can sit on the dole and immerse themselves in the infinite all day. For fuck sakes, you guys, wake up. We need motivation! And for that we need to love women, children, sports, art, science, humor. We need to be invigorated with the things that give pleasure and joy to our organism.

[Nick]

Don't worry, the world isn't going to become wise anytime soon. Besides, the people on this forum should be the least of your worries based on what you value. Your motivation would be much more effective if applied elsewhere.

[Trevor Salyzyn]

Isaac, a world of sages would not behave like a world of buffoons. All of the important work would get done; and, all the wasteful and destructive work would be left unattended. Russell estimated 4 hours per person per week would be enough, but I'm thinking he was exaggerating so the number would seem realistic to over-working Americans. It would definitely be much less.

In most Western countries, it's presently possible to live better than a 16th century monarch off of table scraps. A wise man can live downright extravagantly on the dole, right there at the poverty line. He'd need a pretty damn good reason to abandon all his good sense and work. I'm not altogether sure that most people who work have thought about it carefully enough to make sure that they have a good reason to be working in the first place, and that they aren't just doing something completely destructive and unsustainable.

[Isaac]

Isaac, a world of sages would not behave like a world of buffoons.

Maybe not like buffoons, but based on what I've read here, it just seems awfully simple and un-powerful.

All of the important work would get done; and, all the wasteful and destructive work would be left unattended.

What work do you consider wasteful and destructive?

A wise man can live downright extravagantly on the dole, right there at the poverty line. He'd need a pretty damn good reason to abandon all his good sense and work.

A good reason? How about, having a conscience? How about, earning his own money, instead of taking the money of others?

I'm not altogether sure that most people who work have thought about it carefully enough to make sure that they have a good reason to be working in the first place, and that they aren't just doing something completely destructive and unsustainable.

There you go again. Tell me, what in your opinion is completely destructive and unsustainable?

[DHodges]

A wise man can live downright extravagantly on the dole, right there at the poverty line.

Trevor, you're in Canada, right? I take it that means you have access to medical care if you need it?

[DHodges]

Maybe not like buffoons, but based on what I've read here, it just seems awfully simple and un-powerful.

Do you object to that? Why?

[Trevor Salyzyn]

Isaac,

Maybe not like buffoons, but based on what I've read here, it just seems awfully simple and un-powerful.

I'd bet you that more than half the people here have the knowledge to make an atomic bomb, but I don't need any more money. Like Thales, they've got better things to do with their time.

What work do you consider wasteful and destructive?

We'll start with any work that causes irreparable harm to the environment, and add to it any work that damages infrastructure or provides poor quality food choices. As well, I could add all paid shift-work that involves doing nothing more than sleeping or staring at the clock, since apart from being wasteful, it also allows people to barely work, yet still contribute by making wasteful and destructive purchases. Do you need examples, or have you at some point worked or listened to environmentalists? The suburban lifestyle is unsustainable.

I can't believe you needed more specificity. It's harder to find jobs that aren't wasteful and destructive than those that are. Only a few people who work shift-work have a good reason to be doing so (emergency workers).

A good reason? How about, having a conscience? How about, earning his own money, instead of taking the money of others?

The Invisible Hand of the Marketplace has made the standard of living for those on the dole ridiculously high. So yeah, let's all enter the marketplace because it's nice. Give me a break.

Conscience can swing both ways. The dole is not theft (try prosecuting it), but all the extra money that hard-working people didn't even need to make. They worked too hard. They damaged the environment, and wasted their precious time, and not even out of some grand moral theory, but simple greed. Sucks to be them. If fewer people worked, only then would working make sense.

If you're going to work, you might as well stop when you've done all the necessary work. It's hard to believe that there's so much work to do that every urbanite and suburbanite can work 8-12 hours a day, 5-6 days a week, without accidentally doing some very unwise things. We'll call that foolishness 95%.




Dave,

Trevor, you're in Canada, right? I take it that means you have access to medical care if you need it?

Yeah. Universal medical care is the top reason I haven't left this country. Canadians may not be able to tell jokes, but they're civilized.

[Ryan Sepulvado]

I don't like medicare. Animals should be punished for their mistakes. We'll never learn to be strong in this situation.

Did you say "world of sages" Trevor? I believe that was you.

What is this "world of sages"? Why are you imagining such a fantasy? There's never existed such a thing, to human minds. This is a world of slowly developing organisms. I believe you'd be better if you accepted that; perhaps you already have.

Don't be fooled, my children!

[Jason]

I don't like medicare. Animals should be punished for their mistakes. We'll never learn to be strong in this situation.

Are "animals" to be punished for simply being born with certain characteristics(including purely genetic predispositions) that inexorably lead to disease?

[divine focus]

I know this has been asked a million times, but it's just not clear to me. Why should we value absolute truth?

Everyone's curious about something. The self is the primary concept, no? It only makes sense to want to know more about it.

[Ryan Sepulvado]

I don't like medicare. Animals should be punished for their mistakes. We'll never learn to be strong in this situation.

Are "animals" to be punished for simply being born with certain characteristics(including purely genetic predispositions) that inexorably lead to disease?

Yes. You don't know how evolution has worked? If we were capable of treating unhealthy qualities and extracting value from what goodness exists within the otherwise healthy, such medical attention would be condonable.
But we're not capable of that, so it is not. As it is now, we are evolving to become a weaker species.

[Isaac]

Maybe not like buffoons, but based on what I've read here, it just seems awfully simple and un-powerful.

Do you object to that? Why?

I don't object to being simple and unpowerful. But I do object to the indulging in simplistic words games, and calling it 'Genius'. That's the impression this forum gives off.

And why would anyone want to indulge in word games and call themselves Geniuses? I think it has a lot to do with envy and self hatred. We live in a society that worships beauty, art and scientific prowess. High Testosterone people acknowledge this, and since they feel they have none of the celebrated qualities, they get envious, and so they start indulging in unusual definitions, definitions which leave them feeling superior to the things they envy.

And thus, here we have 'The Enlightened Sage'.