Enlightenment and Drug Therapy

[Nick]

I was thinking about the quickest way to enlighten the largest number of people and I came up with an interesting three step program designed to significantly increase one's drive toward wisdom, which would be called Enlightenment Therapy. It's purpose would be to condition one's mind through drug and teacher therapy to a point where only perfect enlightenment would be the desired end result.

Step 1) Positive Therapy: A drug would be prescribed to an individual which would cause significant amounts of dopamine to be released in the brain whenever their thoughts were truthful/logical in an absolute sense. The subject would also be assisted by a teacher to direct their thoughts in a way that allowed them to get the greatest stimulation. The dosage would be high in the beginning and slowly work its way down step by step until an optimal period of time was reached where it was certain the individual had thought logically in an absolute sense long enough to consciously recognize the difference between truthful and delusional thought processes. After this, the positive therapy could be eliminated as it would only serve as a barrier in the long term to perfect enlightenment due to the mind being overly excited by the relatively high amounts of dopamine in the brain.

Step 2) Negative Therapy: The next step would be to then prescribe the individual a drug that tricks the mind into thinking a person needs to escape delusional thought processes like a person needs to escape a brutal form of death. These two steps would need to be in this order because if the second step were implemented before the first, the individual would not be conscious enough to know how to escape the delusional thought processes, only making matters worse. Unlike the first step where the dosage goes from high to low, the dosage for this step would be low in the beginning and work its way up step by step until the individual's mind is as adverse to delusional thought processes as it would be to remaining in the company of a grizzly bear or any other scenario the individual is most adverse to. The reason for the dosage going from low to high on this step is because a person would need to be allowed enough time to develop the skills and ability to quickly and efficiently eliminate delusional thought processes in the mind. If the dosage were too high in the beginning the individual may not yet be able to cope with the pressure and would only result in the individual being overwhelmed with fear and anxiety, ultimately making no progress. The negative therapy would last until it was certain the individual's mind would no longer drift toward delusion.

Step 3) Neutral Therapy: During this step a combination of low dosage positive and negative therapy would be applied in the beginning to ensure the long lasting effect of enlightened thought processes. Eventually all positive and negative therapy could be abandoned and a drug would then be prescribed which would cause the individual to experience a mild overall feeling of well being regardless of how truthful or delusion one's thought processes were, which would allow the mind to remain focused on truth with minimal disturbance. The frequency of dosage, if at all needed, would be determined by the patient depending on how often and how severely their mind felt distracted by environment factors and bodily functions. The end result being a perfectly or near perfectly enlightened individual.

What do you think?

[maestro]

Science fiction, we barely have a drug to stabilize manic depressives.

[Nick]

Whether you think it's science fiction or not isn't really an argument for or against the idea of using drug therapy to achieve enlightenment. Because as we all know, there were many things that were once science fiction but are now not only possible, but common place.

[guest_of_logic]

What do you think?

I think that it's laugh-out-loud (and I did) funny that you propose such a scheme in all seriousness. I mean, I might have proposed something like that for a bit of a joke, but you're absolutely earnest. Only on GF!

Anyway, you probably want something more substantial than my opinion that your proposal is amusing, so here are a few questions:
* have you ever read/watched the book/movie, A Clockwork Orange?
* would this scheme be voluntary or would people be forced into Enlightenment Drug Therapy?
* who gets to decide what is "absolutely true" and what is "delusional", and why should I - as a prospective patient - trust them?

[Nick]

* have you ever read/watched the book/movie, A Clockwork Orange?

I haven't read or watched it, but I have read about it. It is an interesting comparison though, between my idea and that movie.

* would this scheme be voluntary or would people be forced into Enlightenment Drug Therapy?

It depends on the circumstances. If people are allowed the liberty of making the choice on their own it would certainly be voluntary, but if I had my way and I knew the therapy would be effective I would force people to undergo the therapy.

* who gets to decide what is "absolutely true" and what is "delusional", and why should I - as a prospective patient - trust them?

Nobody decides what is absolutely true and what is delusional, as these things are already set in stone. A patient's trust would likely be determined by clinical trials and test studies and the results there in, just like any other drug therapy one might trust.

[brokenhead]

* have you ever read/watched the book/movie, A Clockwork Orange?

My first thought! Ludovico treatment! Nick and his droogies!!!

[BGen]

I was rising kind of similar question a month ago:
http://www.theabsolute.net/phpBB/viewto ... &sk=t&sd=a

[Ryan Rudolph]

Nick,

What do you think?

In my opinion, a person needs to be interested in truth to understand truth. There has to be a passion for philosophy, and I doubt that you could inculcate a passion for truth or inquisitiveness for life in general. For instance: it would be difficult to dope someone up constantly through neurological rewards and expect an honest philosopher at the end of the experiment. I don’t think its that simple.

However, perhaps there are philosopher gene (s) combination that result in many desirable characteristics that makes an individual predisposed to have an interest in truth. In my view, We need to understand how to engineer genius, not drug-shock dumb individuals into superficially acting out the behavior of genius. There is a big difference there.

[skipair]

I agree that a mass mind-opening project could use a drug program. I don't know how we could possibly curtail toward your suggestions, Nick, but who knows. The future isn't here yet...

I will say that my old pothead years were thinking years, and that now whenever I do occassionally smoke it is habitual thinking time. Though, it doesn't seem most people do that.

The other day I smoked with a Mormon couple. Strange, I know. When I got alone I had an experience I've had before, but stronger. My eyes were fixed, unblinking, and I watched from afar phantoms of the mind arise, and let them pass away. It was like I came down from the branches and got back to the beginning - closer anyway. I was able to do this by asking the question: "Given this, what would the ideal person do?" And when the answer came, I found no resistence in performing the action. I felt like a child, a baby even. If most people could have THAT, things would be pretty good I think.

[geniuine]

What do you think?

...That you don't know what you're talking about. Hey, welcome to the club!

[Nick]

In my opinion, a person needs to be interested in truth to understand truth.

Isn't an initial interest in something determined by how one's genetic makeup determines what thoughts and experiences release dopamine in the brain? Specifically, philosophical and logical thoughts?

There has to be a passion for philosophy, and I doubt that you could inculcate a passion for truth or inquisitiveness for life in general. For instance: it would be difficult to dope someone up constantly through neurological rewards and expect an honest philosopher at the end of the experiment. I don’t think its that simple.

That's exactly how it worked with me. I had a passion for philosophy from a young age because it felt meaningful to me, i.e. my genetic makeup determined that my brain would release dopamine and other chemicals in my brain when I entertained philosophical thoughts.

However, perhaps there are philosopher gene (s) combination that result in many desirable characteristics that makes an individual predisposed to have an interest in truth. In my view, We need to understand how to engineer genius, not drug-shock dumb individuals into superficially acting out the behavior of genius. There is a big difference there.

Actually the only difference is that the drug therapy I proposed bypasses genetic/cultural pre-disposition, allowing anyone to develop an interest in truth. Instead of re-engineering the genetic code from the ground up, which seems much more difficult, I'm suggesting that we tweak what is already in place. It should work just fine in the mean time, until nano-technology allows organisms to be consciously engineered from the ground up.

[Nick]

I agree that a mass mind-opening project could use a drug program. I don't know how we could possibly curtail toward your suggestions, Nick, but who knows. The future isn't here yet...

I will say that my old pothead years were thinking years, and that now whenever I do occassionally smoke it is habitual thinking time. Though, it doesn't seem most people do that.

The other day I smoked with a Mormon couple. Strange, I know. When I got alone I had an experience I've had before, but stronger. My eyes were fixed, unblinking, and I watched from afar phantoms of the mind arise, and let them pass away. It was like I came down from the branches and got back to the beginning - closer anyway. I was able to do this by asking the question: "Given this, what would the ideal person do?" And when the answer came, I found no resistence in performing the action. I felt like a child, a baby even. If most people could have THAT, things would be pretty good I think.

The experience you are describing was probably handled that way by yourself because you already have a connection to truth. Chances are if someone else were in your shoes they would not only interpret that experience differently, but they would have a completely different experience all together. The drug therapy I am proposing is different in that truthful thoughts are chemically rewarded and delusional thoughts are chemically punished, eventually conditioning the mind to a point where it no longer needs the drugs. Which is generally how things work with anything a person is interested in without the use of drugs. It's just that most people have a genetic and/or cultural pre-disposition to have their delusional thoughts chemically rewarded, and truthful thoughts chemically punished.

[skipair]

Yeah dude, sign me up. Fuck this whole "against all odds" way of doing things. I want a magic pill to guide me. "Enlightox".

Or what about Enlightenment Bootcamp. False thoughts? 50 pushups. Suppressing emotions? Clean the toilet.

I'd be so nice not to have to take responsibility for it all. Skip, why aren't you enlightened yet? "Pill's fault."

Something tells me it's an impossible idea, though. To isolate the causal conditions of an enlightened mind, to make it repeatable, would require knowledge of ALL causal conditions, which I think is impossible. Maybe general principles would be enough, but I suppose that's something time will (unlikely) tell.

[Ryan Rudolph]

Nick,

Isn't an initial interest in something determined by how one's genetic makeup determines what thoughts and experiences release dopamine in the brain? Specifically, philosophical and logical thoughts?

Here is a metaphor that works here – do you think that you can create the latest fastest computer by taking an old commodore 64 and cranking high amounts of electricity through it, and then attempting to load the latest software programs? That is what you are talking about doing.

Irrational individuals are not enlightened because they lack a genetic and neurological foundation for enlightenment. Most individuals are not intellectual at all, and you cannot use drugs to create intellectuals. For instance: look at the 70s movement – millions of individuals used psychedelic drugs, which can blow the doors of perception wide open, but why did most of the hippies revert back to their original conditioning, and original dull personalities? Because they lacked a true interest in philosophy, they lack an inquisitiveness, they lacked soul. Basically, there could be a material configuration from the outset that can give individuals a bit of soul, they are born intellectuals. It is too simplistic to suggest that you can take a dullard, and whack some drugs to him, and expect a sophisticated intellectual come out at the other end….

It doesn’t seem feasible to me.

[skipair]

Ryan, if people were rewarded for what intellectual thoughts they do have, they would be more prone make them grow.

[skipair]

My eyes were fixed, unblinking, and I watched from afar phantoms of the mind arise, and let them pass away. It was like I came down from the branches and got back to the beginning - closer anyway. I was able to do this by asking the question: "Given this, what would the ideal person do?" And when the answer came, I found no resistence in performing the action. I felt like a child, a baby even.

I want to add that the action I took in adopting the ideally reasonable perspective led to taking NO action, and instead to wait on most everything. For the practical things I needed to perform, like checking a bus schedule, I made sure to premeditate so that I had a clear picture of what it was I was going to do before I did it. I was free from being enmeshed in all the layers of projections that normally consume me. All very pleasurable. Making me think twice...as always.

[Nick]

Yeah dude, sign me up. Fuck this whole "against all odds" way of doing things. I want a magic pill to guide me. "Enlightox".

Or what about Enlightenment Bootcamp. False thoughts? 50 pushups. Suppressing emotions? Clean the toilet.

I'd be so nice not to have to take responsibility for it all. Skip, why aren't you enlightened yet? "Pill's fault."

Yeah, I'd be willing to try out the drug therapy and put my money where my mouth is. I'll take all the help I can get.

Something tells me it's an impossible idea, though. To isolate the causal conditions of an enlightened mind, to make it repeatable, would require knowledge of ALL causal conditions, which I think is impossible. Maybe general principles would be enough, but I suppose that's something time will (unlikely) tell.

Well I know it's possible, because nature does it all the time to encourage behavior that is favorable to our survival, and ever so rarely she gives people a genetic/cultural makeup that encourages behavior that is favorable to one's enlightenment. To think that we wont be able to manipulate these pre-dispositions through drugs or genetic engineering is naive. Also, once we learn how to do this, we wont need to isolate all the current causal conditions of an enlightened mind as they currently stand because we could bypass most of them, and it certainly wouldn't require knowledge of all causal conditions to make it repeatable. Scientists repeat their experiments all the time with knowledge of only a hand full of causal conditions, an enlightenment experiment would be no different.

[Nick]

Here is a metaphor that works here – do you think that you can create the latest fastest computer by taking an old commodore 64 and cranking high amounts of electricity through it, and then attempting to load the latest software programs? That is what you are talking about doing.

I don't think this does work here. I'm not talking about overloading the brain with electro-chemical stimulation, I'm talking about rewarding very specific behavior and punishing very specific behavior until the brain rewires itself.

Irrational individuals are not enlightened because they lack a genetic and neurological foundation for enlightenment. Most individuals are not intellectual at all, and you cannot use drugs to create intellectuals. For instance: look at the 70s movement – millions of individuals used psychedelic drugs, which can blow the doors of perception wide open, but why did most of the hippies revert back to their original conditioning, and original dull personalities? Because they lacked a true interest in philosophy, they lack an inquisitiveness, they lacked soul. Basically, there could be a material configuration from the outset that can give individuals a bit of soul, they are born intellectuals. It is too simplistic to suggest that you can take a dullard, and whack some drugs to him, and expect a sophisticated intellectual come out at the other end….

The metaphor you used above actually applies quite nicely to hippies, because the hippies just overloaded their feeble minds with massive amounts of chaotic stimulation, but it has no real connection to what I'm talking about. Because as I said, the drug therapy I am proposing would specifically reward enlightened thought processes just like your brain rewards you for thinking about sex with a beautiful woman, and it would specifically punish delusional thought processes just like your brain would punish you if you think about having your balls chopped off. Eventually everything you think about will be perfectly in line with the truth and the drugs wont be necessary because the brain will have rewired itself into one hell of an enlightenment producing machine. Just imagine if everyone were running around chasing enlightenment like they chase women. That would be impressive.

[mansman]

I notice now for this time the yappy women have no comment, what are they waiting for there gods to set the matter straight, so then they can agree with them? haha see it all the time.
You must be wondering, Mr Nick, why JQRS are so silent, no? I think I know.
Some had guts to speak, congratulation to you i say!
Me also will say, ah, now I forgot.......I think was about the drug, i was thinking "man, thats sum drug!" instread of Viagra they could call it E-agra, since it is so smart to tell a wise thought from a dumm one.
Oh, ok I remember, Mr Nick do you think also would be helpful to have a computer hook-up or monitor patient, or subject, may be more likely to tell wats going on in the brain, what you think?
Have you heard of any similar "smart" drugs now being experimented or on market, smart because they detect and adjust themselves as required? Seem like amazing product.

Ok then, maybe now some more sleepy heads speak up.

m

[Ryan Rudolph]

Nick,

I'm talking about rewarding very specific behavior and punishing very specific behavior until the brain rewires itself.

But you are talking about rewiring a dullard to be an intellectual that wasn’t there before, how can you reward a dullard to think for himself? I happen to believe that glands, genes, and neurological configuration are fixed to a huge extent, and most unconscious people don’t have a prayer as far as treatment is concerned. It is better to use the template of enlightened individuals and replicate that, rather than trying to correct an unmanageable situation.

You have to think that it just isn't a person's neurology that is flawed, it is their genes, it is the amount of secretions of all their different glands, it is very complex, and a drug will only scratch the surface in correcting some of that mess.

[Carl G]

I'm with Nick on this one. I think it's a brilliant idea.

[Nick]

But you are talking about rewiring a dullard to be an intellectual that wasn’t there before, how can you reward a dullard to think for himself?

Like I said, in the first step there would be a teacher to guide the patient's thoughts in a way that allowed them to receive the maximum amount of stimulation, i.e. engage in the most truthful/logical thoughts. Eventually the patient could learn to do this on their own, and as a side effect of this, the person would then become more conscious.

I happen to believe that glands, genes, and neurological configuration are fixed to a huge extent, and most unconscious people don’t have a prayer as far as treatment is concerned. It is better to use the template of enlightened individuals and replicate that, rather than trying to correct an unmanageable situation.

You have to think that it just isn't a person's neurology that is flawed, it is their genes, it is the amount of secretions of all their different glands, it is very complex, and a drug will only scratch the surface in correcting some of that mess.

Even if you don't think it will help a person who has absolutely no connection to truth, I'm nearly 100% certain it would help push someone who already has a connection to truth along, which still makes it an extremely valuable drug IMO.

[skipair]

But you are talking about rewiring a dullard to be an intellectual that wasn’t there before, how can you reward a dullard to think for himself? I happen to believe that glands, genes, and neurological configuration are fixed to a huge extent, and most unconscious people don’t have a prayer as far as treatment is concerned.

I think "nurturing" plays a pretty big role. While I agree that glands, genes, and neurology are major factors, no less so is the difference between a childhood spent around convicts, and one with smart people.

It's only accidental that I ran into the people I have. It scares me to think what I'd be doing right now if I hadn't. I could be a convict!

[skipair]

Well I know it's possible, because nature does it all the time to encourage behavior that is favorable to our survival,

Nature does what all the time?

Also, once we learn how to do this, we wont need to isolate all the current causal conditions of an enlightened mind as they currently stand because we could bypass most of them,

If meanings are certain concoctions of brain chemicals, like currents in the ocean, it might prove to be infinitely complex and not a finite and repeatable thing. That's my only qualm. Other than that I'd bet on the possibility, but not the likelyhood.

[Nick]

Well I know it's possible, because nature does it all the time to encourage behavior that is favorable to our survival,

Nature does what all the time?

Provide us a chemical reward when we do something beneficial to our survival such bonding, conquering, or eating. It's evident in the 7 billion people on this planet that these chemical rewards have been successful in ensuring the continued existence of our species up until this point. So it makes sense to me that chemically rewarding truthful/logical behavior would result in a much more enlightened population.

Also, once we learn how to do this, we wont need to isolate all the current causal conditions of an enlightened mind as they currently stand because we could bypass most of them,

If meanings are certain concoctions of brain chemicals, like currents in the ocean, it might prove to be infinitely complex and not a finite and repeatable thing. That's my only qualm. Other than that I'd bet on the possibility, but not the likelyhood.

It doesn't seem that complicated to me. People's brains release dopamine when they perform/think about certain actions, and they directly associate these actions with the high they experience causing them to perform these actions on a regular basis and become very proficient at them. Just like a man who's brain releases the largest amounts of dopamine when they dominate women, or a basketball player who's brain releases the largest amounts of dopamine when he's dominating on the court, or a scientist who's brain releases the largest amounts of dopamine when he's conquering the secrets of the universe, so to does the sage's brain release large amounts of dopamine when they are conquering delusion with precise logic and sound reason. In all these scenarios the people become very good at what they are doing, but as we move from womanizer, to basketball player, to scientist, to philosopher, the level of consciousness this person possesses increases as well.

One's ability to uncover truth leads to consciousness and enlightenment, not the other way around.