The Problem With Women Today

[Nick]

In general, if men want women to stop having breast implants and other cosmetic surgery, they need to stop giving so much importance to a woman's looks.

That's one solution, but what do you think about woman becoming independent and conscious enough to stop mutilating their bodies for men? I mean, there's always going to be some kind of pressure from one's environment to conform, but that shouldn't completely nullify individual responsibility.

Of course, one does need to be a genuine individual and posses enough courage to stand up to social and environmental pressure, something most people are not, and do not have.

Since women undergo body mutilation and ornamentation more than men, do you think this is serves as a strong indicator of women's lack of individuality?

[Shahrazad]

Nick,

That's one solution, but what do you think about woman becoming independent and conscious enough to stop mutilating their bodies for men?

That would be fine too. I just have this thing against hypocrites. If you (plural) want to look down on women who enlarge their breasts, stop looking at large breasts.

I mean, there's always going to be some kind of pressure from one's environment to conform, but that shouldn't completely nullify individual responsibility.

Sure, as long as you recognize that for a woman to go this route, she'd have to give up her possibility of ever getting any man's attention. Easier said than done. And I disagree that it's all about pressure to conform. Women are addicted to relationships.

Since women undergo body mutilation and ornamentation more than men, do you think this is serves as a strong indicator of women's lack of individuality?

Not at all. Men lack individuality too, it's just that they express it differently.

[Nick]

If you (plural) want to look down on women who enlarge their breasts, stop looking at large breasts.

Do you think it takes more effort to look at breasts, or enhance them with bras, make-up, shirts, and surgery?

Sure, as long as you recognize that for a woman to go this route, she'd have to give up her possibility of ever getting any man's attention. Easier said than done.

Just by not showing off her breasts?

And I disagree that it's all about pressure to conform. Women are addicted to relationships.

Well I never actually said that, but it is an interesting statement. If one is addicted to relationships, or anything else for that matter, don't their lives have to conform to this addiction?

Since women undergo body mutilation and ornamentation more than men, do you think this is serves as a strong indicator of women's lack of individuality?

Not at all. Men lack individuality too, it's just that they express it differently.

I'm kind of confused. You say no to my question, but then you say men "just express their individuality differently", as if to imply you actually do agree with my question. Can you clarify?

[Shahrazad]

Nick Treklis

Do you think it takes more effort to look at breasts, or enhance them with bras, make-up, shirts, and surgery?

Looking at breasts does not take a whole lot of effort.

Sure, as long as you recognize that for a woman to go this route, she'd have to give up her possibility of ever getting any man's attention. Easier said than done.

Just by not showing off her breasts?

She has to show off something if she wants attention. It may be her butt or another body part.

And I disagree that it's all about pressure to conform. Women are addicted to relationships.

Well I never actually said that, but it is an interesting statement. If one is addicted to relationships, or anything else for that matter, don't their lives have to conform to this addiction?

Yes, but I thought you were talking about conforming to societal / group norms. Conforming to one's own addictions can be quite consistent with individuality.

Since women undergo body mutilation and ornamentation more than men, do you think this is serves as a strong indicator of women's lack of individuality?

Not at all. Men lack individuality too, it's just that they express it differently.

I'm kind of confused. You say no to my question, but then you say men "just express their individuality differently", as if to imply you actually do agree with my question. Can you clarify?

You were saying that because women are more vain than men, they are less individual. I don't see how that follows. Lack of individuality is a human problem, not a female problem.

ETA: I meant that men express their lack of individuality differently.

[jupta]

I think that women are worse off today, especially in the West, than they were at any point in history I can think of.

I would attribute this to the lack of strategic thinking in women. They just can't seem to see anything from a temporal standpoint. Even when they see others, they either see themselves, or the lack of themselves, in them. If they see a lack of themselves in others, then they create an image of themselves in them. This defines their entire world.

This is most probably why men who have grown up with women have so much femininity in themselves.

Anyhow, 'the problem with women today' is that they are simply more feminine than before, because their 'liberation' has allowed them to project their egos onto more and more objects, people and spheres of life.

[Nick]

She has to show off something if she wants attention. It may be her butt or another body part.

Women in the muslim world don't show off any of their body parts, yet they still manage to draw a huge amount of attention. So much so that they even have laws in place so that women can't travel without their husband or an immediate male relative. To me it seems like women don't have to show any certain body part off, all they have to do is let it be known that she is in fact a woman, and society conforms to her.

Lack of individuality is a human problem, not a female problem.

What do you think about the idea of women simply having to conform to the Woman Ideal to get along in society, where as men, not having that luxury, must carve out a niche for themselves as builders, philosophers, artists, hunters, and thiefs, (which results in more individuality from men than women), in order to get along.

[skipair]

What exactly is it you need to resolve?

When I became conscious of the nature of Woman and of sexual communication, I made at first contact a radically different impression on women than I had the 20+ years previously. They treated me differently than most and looked at me with interest and lust. So I carved that seeming uniqueness into my identity. It's pretty torturous at times, but I'm stubborn and don't like to give up on things easily, thinking that the finish line might come at the next turn - in this case becoming a skilled seducer. The quest essentially gives my life meaning where I would otherwise be extracted into a bleak, loveless world. Any unfinished business I talk about is probably just an excuse not to look at something that feaks the shit out of me.

[sue hindmarsh]

Sue: Then present yourself in front of a few women, and let one of them pick you.

Do men really want women to pick them?

Yes. They are moulded for that purpose from their earliest days.

I thought they find a woman they really like and then work at getting her to fall in love.

How's that not "being picked"?

Years went into the preparation to bring him to the point where she acknowledges his existence. And once he has her attention, he has to continually work hard to keep it firmly on him. That's what 'love' is for a man: keeping her from becoming distracted.

It's crazy, isn't it? Man toils away his whole life for the amusement of a three year old.

[Shahrazad]

Sue,

How's that not "being picked"?

You really can't see the difference between a man picking the girl he likes, and passively letting a random girl pick him?

[Carl G]

I could see early on in the game that the women do the picking. It may seem like men do, and they do in fact do the pursuing, but that's a setup. If a woman does not want the man, then all his antics will get him nowhere. If she doesn't want him and happens to succumb, then it probably won't last. She probably knows if he is marriage (slave) material for her or not very quickly, though perhaps only subconsciously, but then the mating ritual can proceed for some time, the man doing most of the work (while thinking he is leading). The ritual serves to soften him and mold him into what she wants him to be to her. If he fails to soften and mold, she gradually shuts off to him, and it's on to the next potential mate. Yes it is traditionally he who pops the question, eventually, but true to form it is she who says yes or no.

[Shahrazad]

Carl,

Yes it is traditionally he who pops the question, eventually, but true to form it is she who says yes or no.

She can't say yes or no to a man who hasn't even noticed she exists. The woman's picking is limited to accepting or declining a man who has already picked her. That is not real control to me.

[Nick]

Shah,

It's like trying to find employment. Just like when a man tries to impress each potential employer within his particular skill-set in hopes of being selected by one of them, so to does he try to impress each potential mate that he thinks is within his league in hopes of being selected by one of them.

[Shahrazad]

Nick, the approach I have seen the most is selecting the one you like most, and then working hard to get her attention. It seems to me that a self-confident man would prefer this approach.

[Nick]

Yes, and he gets her attention for what reason? Obviously it's to see if she will deem him worthy enough of being a proper mate. However you want to look at it, it's still the woman who makes the final decision about whether a relationship between her and a man goes beyond flirtation and on to something more complex. I thought this was common knowledge.

[Robert]

What the fuck is this? Advice on how to score?! Do you need to come HERE for that?

Fuck you all, I considered you above that.

[Nick]

Are you serious?

[Robert]

Nick, if you're asking me, yes. I am being serious, and I think you're all being frivolous in this discussion.

[Nick]

Maybe you didn't read into the discussion enough, because you'd have to be an idiot to think any of this discussion is intended to help people hook up or "score".

[Rhett]

These forces can be transcended, to create a better form of evolution.

How?

Principally, by studying the nature of reality and sparing nothing in that quest for understanding and revolution.

[Rhett]

Rhett wrote:

I think it was obvious that i was talking about more versus less intelligence, within the conventional realm. About IQ, not wisdom. Sometimes doing this has a place here.

Yeah, but you can’t expect anyone (here, at least) to take seriously your meanderings about whether or not women are “more, or less” attracted to “intelligent” men. Hey, I can tell you right now that sometimes they are, and sometimes they are not. It all depends on...well...on nothing, and everything! Come on Rhett, being the trivial creatures that they are, you can’t expect that there would be a hard and fast explanation for their actions. It’s like trying to catch hold of your shadow - a complete waste of your time.

The way to win women is to be as trivial as they are. Worry about every single thing about yourself: are you too handsome, or not handsome enough; are you too rich, or too poor; is your job interesting to others, or a complete bore; is your body fit and taut, your teeth white, your hairdo “cool”, your shoes “in”; are you good in bed, or do you reek of desperation and fumble around too much; are your friends jealous of you; do you have heaps of friends on your My Space page; is your mobile always within reach; have you a “cool” enough car; do you smell ok; ... ... ... ... ... Then present yourself in front of a few women, and let one of them pick you. Easy as that!

The best of women's minds, the best they have within them to exercise judgment, is directed towards securing a mate. Over time through chance and basic logic, ways and means have developed within women's circles as to how to go about this, and since women copy each other so closely, a good idea only has to have been come upon once for multitudes if not all women to adopt it and profit from it. It's darwins evolution, survival of the fittest.

For example, think about the fact that nearly all checkout workers are female. Sure, there are numerous socio-economic reasons why this is the case, but consider also that it brings a women into close contact with many males, bringing an opportunity for each to study the other physically, socially, economically, etc, and communicate. Women can even see inside the guys wallet, how much money is in it and whether he has photos of a partner or not. Women don't waste this opportunity, and help each other collectively to learn about each man and who he is looking at, etc.

I'm not imprinting any great deal of consciousness upon them. In the same way as a bumblebee and indeed all animals and insects can display self-serving behaviours in the absence of much consciousness, so too can women.

[Rhett]

Rhett wrote:

Skip needs confidence that his emotions and mind will be better off in the long run by skipping women.

Skip wouldn’t have set himself on that path if he wasn’t already fairly confident that his life will be improved by said “skipping”. It is no easy task he has set himself, for no one skips out on women easily. But his feelings about women in general may well be what helps him achieve his quest. Here he is summing up his addiction, and women, with great candour:

Skip: I don't think the way out of this hot, heavy fog of mine is going to be consideration of the rational future of women. That I am convinced is a dead end.

If he is able to hold this conviction, he may well succeed in becoming so extremely bored by women that he won’t be able to take anything about her seriously ever again – and that includes sex, and all its accompanying emotions.

It will depend of course on whether or not he is able to maintain his love of the rational whilst in the midst of women. Say he found the woman of his dreams and fell head over heels in love with her. What would be the plan then Skip?

I know this Sue. People can bore of scripts also. Part of the reason i wrote what i did is because women prey upon men, individually and as a collective, so it pays for a man to understand and feel how they operate, in order to protect himself. And thats not to imply that my posts were principally or even partially intended to help Skipair particularly, or that they weren't, in some measure.

[Rhett]

This is no place to fish for tips to pick up chicks, Sue. I had other things in mind with my questions. Was hoping you, or some other intelligent woman, might shoot off some short responses to all my questions above, and Im still hoping!

We all know how stubborn most men are about girlfriend looks, and how his interest in the woman usually fades with her looks regardless of all other factors. Often referred to as "shallow" men.
Well I was hoping to discuss, analyze and compare the shallowness of 21st century women, but i first need a few things answered a few facts from a dependable female source. Hence my questions.

If I am mistaken please someone do say so,,, but I find in general that woman are very reluctant to freely share such facts especially when questioned by men, and also here in this truth-finding forum over the years the situation has not been much better than in the world at large, in this regard particularly.

Gender mistrust no doubt at the bottom, but why even here for goodness sake!

At bottom women have a warlike attitude towards men. For a woman to talk to a man about what they do would be like passing on war secrets. Only men ever do that. Part of the reason women are so tight is because they have in some or many ways been controlled and dominated by men from time immemorial. It's part of their culture. And men generally don't want to hear about women's attitudes towards them anyway, men don't want to be woken from their own prison cell, because wisdom is their next call, and its hard. Part of men's attraction towards women is the sense of challenge to get sex, if men come to realise that women like sex as much as men, men start to wonder what women have to offer, if anything, and can lose interest.

[Rhett]

Robert, you don't sound too happy with your lot. Many men would be though. Particularly the bit about French women "giving you the full-on 'come fuck me, you know you want to' body language". Oh la la!!!

Sounds like you might need a new work environment.

Skip might be interested in your job. ; )

I reckon many men might like looking at these women, but they will be ground down by the stand-over manipulation, if they can't oppose it strongly enough.

[Rhett]

Foreigner wrote:

This is no place to fish for tips to pick up chicks, Sue. I had other things in mind with my questions. Was hoping you, or some other intelligent woman, might shoot off some short responses to all my questions above, and Im still hoping!

I was making your life easier for you by informing you that it doesn't matter what a woman says she likes, because it would have changed by the time you heard it.

What is it that you have "in mind" with your questions?

I suggest you go back and read foreigner's original post Sue. It's quite clear.

[Shahrazad]

Nick,

Yes, and he gets her attention for what reason? Obviously it's to see if she will deem him worthy enough of being a proper mate.

Right.

However you want to look at it, it's still the woman who makes the final decision about whether a relationship between her and a man goes beyond flirtation and on to something more complex.

Yes.

I thought this was common knowledge.

Yes.

I don't know what point you were trying to make. Nothing you said contradicts what I said. We agree.