Drugs and Spirituality?

[BGen]

Drugs Have No Connection With the Attainment of the Upper World


I was not surprised by the answer.
But I am still thinking about the question.
Does someone really think he/she can become spiritual by using drugs?


?

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"kabbalah does not let us live our lives in the dust, but elevates our mind to the height of knowledge." Johannes Reuchlin

[Trevor Salyzyn]

Many people really do think that drug-induced states are similar to spiritual enlightenment, but it only reveals how poorly enlightenment is understood by these people. Enlightenment is no more a mental state than the ability to do algebra.

A drug can knock someone out of familiar world-views, but the same can be done without drugs. There is no guarantee, however, that these new world-views are any more accurate than the familiar ones. If one doesn't question these as well, there is no wisdom involved: even a person who takes these new world-views and then rejects them, working consciously backward to the old ones, has shown more capacity for wisdom than a person who simply indulges himself in his new fantasies.

[David Quinn]

What Trevor said.

Drugs can open doors to new ways of thinking and perceiving (which can be of benefit), but they can't assist you in judging what is ultimately true in life. For that you need a well-developed reasoning ability, a strong passion for truth, a freedom from the insecure urge to accept new perceptions and insights uncritically, etc. As such, drugs in themselves cannot push one into enlightened consciousness.

I had to laugh at Michael Laitman's response, though. The way he curtly dismisses any possible connection between drug-induced visions and spirituality would suggest that he is very sensitive towards any "cheapening" of his conception of spirituality. He clearly wants to keep it firmly beyond the mundane realm of chemical reactions and the like, which further suggests that he believes spirituality is only attractive if it is mystical, disembodied, otherworldly, etc. Nietzsche would have had a field day with him.

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[MySuicide.X.MyBride]

So how does Laitman explain ancient Jews' use of psychoactive substances such as the holy anointing oil and the drinking of wine?

[BGen]

What Trevor said.

Drugs can open doors to new ways of thinking and perceiving (which can be of benefit), but they can't assist you in judging what is ultimately true in life. For that you need a well-developed reasoning ability, a strong passion for truth, a freedom from the insecure urge to accept new perceptions and insights uncritically, etc. As such, drugs in themselves cannot push one into enlightened consciousness.

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You are right, he dismisses any connections between drug-induced visions and spirituality and is serious about spirituality. I did read extensively his blog and found that "his conception of spirituality" is nothing to be laughed at. What is spirituality? Is it some mystical realm that we fantasize about? Or is it a word which we use to explain things that are beyond our understanding? Who can tell us the reason we're here in this world? All these are explained in a simple manner enabling one to grasp its meaning clearly without any 'illusions' to
fantasy, mysticism etc.

What Trevor said.

I had to laugh at Michael Laitman's response, though. The way he curtly dismisses any possible connection between drug-induced visions and spirituality would suggest that he is very sensitive towards any "cheapening" of his conception of spirituality. He clearly wants to keep it firmly beyond the mundane realm of chemical reactions and the like, which further suggests that he believes spirituality is only attractive if it is mystical, disembodied, otherworldly, etc. Nietzsche would have had a field day with him.

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Yes you are right about him wanting to keep spirituality firmly beyond the realm of chemical reactions. Who wouldn't have? Drugs causes changes in the brain's electrochemistry, so how spiritual is that? However, I do not agree with you that he only believes in spirituality if it is mystical, otherworldly etc. Read his response about mysticism and Red Strings -
1) Other methods
2) Your First Course in Kabbalah



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"kabbalah does not let us live our lives in the dust, but elevates our mind to the height of knowledge." Johannes Reuchlin

[kissaki]

Drugs can assist you in determining the nature of reality. If you take enough psychoactive mushrooms to subsume your brain circuitry you enter the realm of thoughts literally constructing reality. Once you've seen the extent of your brain's creative power you may no longer think of thought, your brain, your universe as inherently made of 'stuff.' Careful, the experience is not words.

[804]

I know people who are so tightly wound that it takes some sort of opiate to bring them to a mental wellbeing. Without mental wellbeing, I don't believe that people can come to whatever truths they find with their spirituality.

[brokenhead]

I know people who are so tightly wound that it takes some sort of opiate to bring them to a mental wellbeing. Without mental wellbeing, I don't believe that people can come to whatever truths they find with their spirituality.

This is clearly true. While as a society we might be overmedicated, there are definite cases where the right course of medication can do wonders. I gather this is not what kissaki was referring to, however.

But consider people with crippling OCD who cannot even leave their homes. The proper, supervised regimen of Zoloft, for example, can make it possible for them to physically leave in order to obtain the psychological counselling they need.

I know for myself, the combination of rehab and Effexor gradually made it possible for me to stop drinking altogether. I was able to deal with things that seemed overwhelming one by one. It's been over three years. Once on the road, I was able to quit smoking as well and substitute good habits, like better diet and a workout routine, for the bad ones. The end result is now I have been off the effexor for almost a year. A bonus effect is that I have been able to discontinue all medications, including my blood pressure medication.

That having been said, Zoloft and Effexor and their like are not opiates. Opiates are addictive, these are not. Anyone who self-mediactes with opiates or any other kind of sedative is cruising for a bruising. This I also know first-hand.

[804]

You have a very good point, and congratulations on your continued wellness, but there is a difference between self-medicating and finding the means to an unnecessary end.

Take my friend J. J is a very pragmatic individual, almost stereotypically so; he's actually in school to become an actuary. He's one of those types.

Unlike most of those types, J fasts for religious holidays and considers his life an ongoing quest for understanding. However, he is still that pragmatic individual who has trouble wandering through the abstract without peyote or the occasional spliff. He doesn't rely on these things in everyday life, and knows that whatever truths he gains while high are from narcotics, but at the same time he is able to appreciate that not worrying, or being so concrete between the ears, opens his mind to things he wouldn't have been so receptive to usually.

I think that in this case, using drugs to help find spirituality is excusable. It isn't a crutch, is what I think OP intends to say.

[brokenhead]

I think that in this case, using drugs to help find spirituality is excusable. It isn't a crutch, is what I think OP intends to say.

Using drugs to find spirituality is something altogether different. This is how I have used LSD and mushrooms and the like. I don't think their recreational use is advisable, though. I base this on my own experiences. The word "recreation" is supposed to mean "re-creation." All too often, it means not having a serious thought, but simply having mindless fun. Potent hallucinogens should not be approached in this manner, IMO.

I'm pretty certain we are on the same wavelength about this, but feel free to disabuse me of that.