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Judging Others
Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 9:58 am
by samadhi
The last few threads I have been in this subject has come up repeatedly and I think it's time to give it its own thread.
It seems to be the consensus here that judging others is a good thing to do. When I talk about judging others, it is in a moral sense, condemning them for actions such as sexuality (BMcGilly07), talking about their past (Diebert), making a living by working (Rybaby), and even cell phone chatting (Dan). I am perfectly fine with others not liking sex, not liking how others talk about themselves, not wanting to work and disliking cell phones but I find it problematic to condemn others for those behaviors. Condemnation is about being superior, it isn't about pointing out more useful behaviors, helping others or being wise. Most here don't seem to agree with that and think it is a necessity to condemn the behaviors of others as a matter of course. Why is that? Is anyone interested in looking at it? Here is what I would be interested in discussing.
Do you believe in the necessity of moral condemnation? Why? Do you believe it is useful? In what way? Do you believe it helps others? How? Do you believe there is wisdom in condemnation? Can you show it? How do you think others react to being condemned? Do they enjoy it? Are they more or less willing to listen to you when you condemn them? Do you think condemning others can be construed as egoic behavior? Does it encourage egoic reactions from others? Is playing superior something egos like to do? Can condemnation be seen as playing superior? If you decided not to condemn others, how would that be a drawback for you? Are there more skillful ways to demonstrate ideas other than through condemnation?
To me, this is a very basic question and anyone with an interest in enlightenment would benefit from its examination. Judgments after all separate us from others. No one likes being judged. So why are judgments not only practiced here, but encouraged and defended as exemplary behavior?
Re: Judging Others
Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 10:25 am
by Dan Rowden
I made no moral judgements about cell phone use - I made judgements about the psychological status of certain behaviours. I don't consider them morally wrong -that would be like thinking a mentally ill person was morally "bad". I'm not interested in moral judgments; indeed, I'm not much interested in morality at all, save an understanding of its own psychological nature. Cell phone behaviour has relevance in any examination of ego-based herdly behaviour.
You have a serious, irrational obsession, Sir. See to it. Interpreting negative judgements about people and/or states of affairs as moral condemnation is fair enough when it's correct, but entirely stupid otherwise. Was the Buddha condemning people when he described them as ignorant and deluded? You know a lot of people get upset when they hear that, right?
Re: Judging Others
Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 10:52 am
by Philosophaster
I don't think anyone was saying that cell phone use is morally wrong. That's just the faulty interpretive net that you cast on the conversation, Sam.
I saw people talking about how cell phone use has become something of a neurotic obsession for many people, and also quite an annoyance in public places. I didn't see moral judgments.
Re: Judging Others
Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 10:52 am
by Carl G
samadhi wrote:Do you believe in the necessity of moral condemnation?
Yes.
Why?
That's how I am wired.
Do you believe it is useful?
Yes.
In what way?
A little ass-kicking can set a person in the right direction.
Do you believe it helps others?
Yes.
How?
A little ass-kicking can set a person in the right direction.
Do you believe there is wisdom in condemnation?
Yes.
Can you show it?
Yes. A little ass-kicking can set a person in the right direction.
How do you think others react to being condemned?
A frowny face at first.
Do they enjoy it?
Later they do. A little ass-kicking can set a person in the right direction.
Are they more or less willing to listen to you when you condemn them?
More or less, yes.
Do you think condemning others can be construed as egoic behavior?
Can, but is not in all cases.
Does it encourage egoic reactions from others?
Can, but not in all cases.
Is playing superior something egos like to do?
Maybe. I'm not a psychologist.
Can condemnation be seen as playing superior?
Can, but is not in all cases.
If you decided not to condemn others, how would that be a drawback for you?
Less fun.
Are there more skillful ways to demonstrate ideas other than through condemnation?
The art of condemnation does require skill!
Re: Judging Others
Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:01 am
by Iolaus
This should be interesting, Samadhi.
Once again, I agree with you.
It so happens that non judgment is a key component of my own path.
Couple remarks. First, they think that if they don't judge it means they don't see things as they are. In fact, I think my vision of people as they are is actually clearer.
It is more about a deep acceptance of everyone. Which, in my opinion, is harder to do when you don't believe in soul or spirit. In other words, no process, and no reason to have faith in the process.
When you understand - in fact
see, that everyone has the same, identical core, that is pure and unsullied, you can then accept everyone as they are.
Says Philo,
Less fun.
But more joy.
Re: Judging Others
Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:09 am
by Nick
Sam,
People like to practice philosophy, get over it.
Re: Judging Others
Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:13 am
by Philosophaster
Iolaus wrote:Says Philo,
Less fun.
But more joy.
Carl was the one who said that.
Re: Judging Others
Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:14 am
by Leyla Shen
[laughs]
So much for seeing people for who they really are, eh?
:)
Re: Judging Others
Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 12:58 pm
by Dan Rowden
I guess the pure, unsullied core thing made her immediately think of Philo. Hard to see Carl engendering that kind of thought pattern. :)
What exactly does that core consist of, btw, Anna? Can it be brought down with kerosene?
Re: Judging Others
Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 2:33 pm
by Iolaus
I think its something like an air bubble. Impervious to kerosene.
Re: Judging Others
Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 4:39 pm
by sue hindmarsh
Iolaus wrote:
This should be interesting, Samadhi.
Once again, I agree with you.
A judgment?
It so happens that non judgment is a key component of my own path.
A judgment?
Couple remarks. First, they think that if they don't judge it means they don't see things as they are. In fact, I think my vision of people as they are is actually clearer.
A judgment?
It is more about a deep acceptance of everyone. Which, in my opinion, is harder to do when you don't believe in soul or spirit. In other words, no process, and no reason to have faith in the process.
A judgment?
When you understand - in fact see, that everyone has the same, identical core, that is pure and unsullied, you can then accept everyone as they are.
A judgment?
Re: Judging Others
Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 5:46 pm
by Fujaro
Philosophaster wrote:I don't think anyone was saying that cell phone use is morally wrong. That's just the faulty interpretive net that you cast on the conversation, Sam.
I saw people talking about how cell phone use has become something of a neurotic obsession for many people, and also quite an annoyance in public places. I didn't see moral judgments.
Hello Philosophaster,
I'm new here and have no opinion on the condemning character of the recent threads samadhi is referring to, but I do think that a statement such as "cell phone use has become something of a neurotic obsession for many people" with the strong negative connotation of "neurotic obsession" contains a moral judgement rather than an independently established fact. On the other hand I do think that it is not realistic to expect for any discussion to be free of moral judgement. What is wrong with acknowledging the moral content of discussion. It can be a starting point of discussion itself, especially for truth seeking debaters.
Re: Judging Others
Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 6:13 pm
by tek0
Listen you little cock suckers...
Do not spout off shit you will not see in a reunion of dreams you were not there for
You want me to act like like world perspective of your mind is existensially there.]
the shit I saw and in fact was master of you are taking a step toward that quite frankly would blow your fat mind.
This shit would be something you would only id as "Is that one of ours"
lets just say this particular experience omes from a specialized team of navy divers that were involved in a "box" recovery.
Strangely enough we ended up with company.
they were no so friendly.
My partner died
Re: Judging Others
Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 6:22 pm
by tek0
Fujaro wrote:Philosophaster wrote:I don't think anyone was saying that cell phone use is morally wrong. That's just the faulty interpretive net that you cast on the conversation, Sam.
I saw people talking about how cell phone use has become something of a neurotic obsession for many people, and also quite an annoyance in public places. I didn't see moral judgments.
Hello Philosophaster,
I'm new here and have no opinion on the condemning character of the recent threads samadhi is referring to, but I do think that a statement such as "cell phone use has become something of a neurotic obsession for many people" with the strong negative connotation of "neurotic obsession" contains a moral judgement rather than an independently established fact. On the other hand I do think that it is not realistic to expect for any discussion to be free of moral judgement. What is wrong with acknowledging the moral content of discussion. It can be a starting point of discussion itself, especially for truth seeking debaters.
Re: Judging Others
Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 6:24 pm
by Dan Rowden
Iolaus wrote:I think its something like an air bubble. Impervious to kerosene.
What about a pin?
Re: Judging Others
Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 10:06 pm
by Diebert van Rhijn
samadhi wrote:
It seems to be the consensus here that judging others is a good thing to do. When I talk about judging others, it is in a moral sense, condemning them for actions such as sexuality (BMcGilly07), talking about their past (Diebert), making a living by working (Rybaby), and even cell phone chatting (Dan).
Sam, you keep on demonstrating some serious impairment in making judgments, even in judging, discerning what actually has been said in mentioned discussions.
To me you are a unconscious liar, twisting every idea, every statement to mean what you need it to say. It's getting tiring and I wish someone would make an end to your suffering and ban you for a while. Your philosophy has
nothing in common with the goals of the board and a prolonged stay with endless repetition of arguments over the months will not get anyone anywhere. It only spams the board right now.
Re: Judging Others
Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:56 pm
by Cory Duchesne
Dan Rowden wrote:I made no moral judgments about cell phone use - I made judgements about the psychological status of certain behaviours.
But why do you care? Surely it's because you've settled on notions of good and bad - and have hence established a morality.
I'm not interested in moral judgments; indeed, I'm not much interested in morality at all
When you decide what you
ought to do, aren't you making a moral judgment?
Re: Judging Others
Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 1:21 am
by sue hindmarsh
Everyone has a set of values they live by, and therefore they also have a personal morality they also live by. I think what Dan was getting at was that he isn't interested in any morality that hasn't truth at its core. And that would mean that he wasn't interested in most morality because most morality is seeped fully in irrationality.
Re: Judging Others
Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 1:23 am
by Philosophaster
Fujaro wrote:Philosophaster wrote:I don't think anyone was saying that cell phone use is morally wrong. That's just the faulty interpretive net that you cast on the conversation, Sam.
I saw people talking about how cell phone use has become something of a neurotic obsession for many people, and also quite an annoyance in public places. I didn't see moral judgments.
Hello Philosophaster,
I'm new here and have no opinion on the condemning character of the recent threads samadhi is referring to, but I do think that a statement such as "cell phone use has become something of a neurotic obsession for many people" with the strong negative connotation of "neurotic obsession" contains a moral judgement rather than an independently established fact.
Perhaps you think that, but that has nothing to do with the psychological use of the term "neurotic." A "neurotic" trait is just a preoccupation that causes a person distress, as many people today experience with regard to their cell phone use -- for example when the phone goes out, when they are left without it, and so on. The fact that a person is neurotic about something says nothing about his moral standing.
Re: Judging Others
Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 3:07 am
by Fujaro
Philosophaster wrote:Fujaro wrote:Philosophaster wrote:I don't think anyone was saying that cell phone use is morally wrong. That's just the faulty interpretive net that you cast on the conversation, Sam.
I saw people talking about how cell phone use has become something of a neurotic obsession for many people, and also quite an annoyance in public places. I didn't see moral judgments.
Hello Philosophaster,
I'm new here and have no opinion on the condemning character of the recent threads samadhi is referring to, but I do think that a statement such as "cell phone use has become something of a neurotic obsession for many people" with the strong negative connotation of "neurotic obsession" contains a moral judgement rather than an independently established fact.
Perhaps you think that, but that has nothing to do with the psychological use of the term "neurotic." A "neurotic" trait is just a preoccupation that causes a person distress, as many people today experience with regard to their cell phone use -- for example when the phone goes out, when they are left without it, and so on. The fact that a person is neurotic about something says nothing about his moral standing.
hmmm...
Does this mean that love can safely be called a neurotic obsession?
Re: Judging Others
Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 3:19 am
by Philosophaster
Fujaro wrote:hmmm...
Does this mean that love can safely be called a neurotic obsession?
It certainly could be in many cases.
Re: Judging Others
Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 3:29 am
by Fujaro
Philosophaster wrote:Fujaro wrote:hmmm...
Does this mean that love can safely be called a neurotic obsession?
It certainly could be in many cases.
Then, is there any problem with neurotic cell phone use, or is there only a problem in the eye of the beholder who sees it as an annoyance?
Re: Judging Others
Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 3:51 am
by Philosophaster
Fujaro wrote:Philosophaster wrote:Fujaro wrote:hmmm...
Does this mean that love can safely be called a neurotic obsession?
It certainly could be in many cases.
Then, is there any problem with neurotic cell phone use, or is there only a problem in the eye of the beholder who sees it as an annoyance?
Whether something is a "problem" depends on your goals and values. So yes, it is "in the eye of the beholder." If your goal is simply to stay in touch with people constantly, then any cell phone use is wonderful.
I see neurotic cell phone use as a public safety problem, at the very least, since people talking on cell phones get in many more wrecks than people who don't use their phones in the car. I also find it annoying that many people feel obliged to interrupt whatever they're doing to pick up their phone and start talking. But this stuff has already been covered in the other topic.
Re: Judging Others
Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 3:56 am
by Fujaro
Philosophaster wrote:I see neurotic cell phone use as a public safety problem, at the very least, since people talking on cell phones get in many more wrecks than people who don't use their phones in the car. I also find it annoying that many people feel obliged to interrupt whatever they're doing to pick up their phone and start talking. But this stuff has already been covered in the other topic.
We seem to share some moral ground on this one :-)
Re: Judging Others
Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 4:09 am
by Carl G
Fujaro wrote:
We seem to share some moral ground on this one :-)
What has public safety and social manners to do with morality?