Judging Others

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
Locked
User avatar
protilius
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:31 pm

Re: Judging Others

Post by protilius »

I think many people are attention starved.

To get attention, you can do two things...

1. Accomplish or say something worth noticing.

or...

2. Find somebody that has done something or said something noticeable and then mentally rape him/her in a room full of people.

Haha... I'm half joking as I say this, but I do think this observation has some valid points.


Most people don't have the mux to do something worthy of being noticed in a good way by themselves (I didn't say all, just most), so they find ways to make themselves appear greater than they really are by placing themselves on a higher pedestal than the next guy.

How?

Easiest way to do that is judge the poor guy next to you in some way, state a case that a bunch of people will likely agree with... and suddenly... One person is an asshole and the other has officially been noticed and now has more friends than he did yesterday. (If you can call that a friend.)

People judge for they're own reasons, often they'll throw you under the bus and you'll never know why its really happening until its too late to prevent it.

It blows my mind how often indiviuals can twist something you said into they're own little perspective. You'll write or say something that in your mind was not offensive or confrontational at all... Just a thought or idea you've had.

Suddenly some guy that knows how to cut and paste quotes is ripping your little monologue apart and squeezing you for ideas and thoughts that "you know you weren't thinking about as you wrote or spoke the original idea." Ussually the guy blasting you is so good at what he does, you have to stop for a second and ask yourself, "am I really an asshole?"

Then the monkey poop fight ensues... everyones IQ just drops sharply as two people franticly try to burn the other in a war of two dimensional words... and somebody always ends up rubbing they're ass after getting the verbal spanking of a life time all because he said something like "I like porn."

And before anyone goes off on porn, keep in mind I used it as an example of a statement that could get you in trouble.

Not that I have anything against porn...

Ok, this monolouge is deteriorating quickly.

Anyhow... people judge to either feel better about themselves, because they don't understand something, because they fear something, or simply know something to be bad or wrong.

Unfortunately... In my observations, most of the judging I see in the world isn't the selfless or righteous kind, its usually an angry person with a bone to pick with the world.

I think having the wisdom to know when and when not to respond to something in cases like this is essential.

Sometimes a fire will burn itself out if you let it burn long enough on its own.

Feed the fire... and it can burn forever.
Last edited by protilius on Sat Aug 02, 2008 12:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Carl G
Posts: 2659
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:52 pm
Location: Arizona

Re: Judging Others

Post by Carl G »

protilius,

I like to talk to myself, too, like you. Only, I try not to do it in public.
Good Citizen Carl
User avatar
protilius
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:31 pm

Re: Judging Others

Post by protilius »

samadhi wrote:The last few threads I have been in this subject has come up repeatedly and I think it's time to give it its own thread.

It seems to be the consensus here that judging others is a good thing to do. When I talk about judging others, it is in a moral sense, condemning them for actions such as sexuality (BMcGilly07), talking about their past (Diebert), making a living by working (Rybaby), and even cell phone chatting (Dan). I am perfectly fine with others not liking sex, not liking how others talk about themselves, not wanting to work and disliking cell phones but I find it problematic to condemn others for those behaviors. Condemnation is about being superior, it isn't about pointing out more useful behaviors, helping others or being wise. Most here don't seem to agree with that and think it is a necessity to condemn the behaviors of others as a matter of course. Why is that? Is anyone interested in looking at it? Here is what I would be interested in discussing.

Do you believe in the necessity of moral condemnation? Why? Do you believe it is useful? In what way? Do you believe it helps others? How? Do you believe there is wisdom in condemnation? Can you show it? How do you think others react to being condemned? Do they enjoy it? Are they more or less willing to listen to you when you condemn them? Do you think condemning others can be construed as egoic behavior? Does it encourage egoic reactions from others? Is playing superior something egos like to do? Can condemnation be seen as playing superior? If you decided not to condemn others, how would that be a drawback for you? Are there more skillful ways to demonstrate ideas other than through condemnation?

To me, this is a very basic question and anyone with an interest in enlightenment would benefit from its examination. Judgments after all separate us from others. No one likes being judged. So why are judgments not only practiced here, but encouraged and defended as exemplary behavior?


I thought my post applied to the topic at hand... Didn't realize that anyone here was so important that I "have" to address some one before posting a valid thought.

Although... I think its great that you are comfortable enough to admit that you have conversations with yourself. I have a reference for a great psychologist in the Madison WI area, went to school with the guy, cheep rates and he doesn't mind counseling morons or assholes either.

Oh, and thanks for proving my point Carl.
Last edited by protilius on Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Carl G
Posts: 2659
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:52 pm
Location: Arizona

Re: Judging Others

Post by Carl G »

Thanks for sharpening your focus, in your reply. Just saying poetry doesn't do it for me.
Good Citizen Carl
User avatar
protilius
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:31 pm

Re: Judging Others

Post by protilius »

Carl G wrote:Thanks for sharpening your focus, in your reply. Just saying poetry doesn't do it for me.
Poetry? You lost me buddy... Did you even read my post?

And I believe your original post implied that i was talking to myself and that I shouldn't do it in public. It mentioned nothing about your distaste for poetry.

Perhaps I'm not the one here that needs to sharpen his focus...

Have a good day sir.
mikiel
Posts: 588
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:27 am

Re: Judging Others

Post by mikiel »

Regarding the size of my penis, Shah wrote:
Mikiel already confessed he lied about that part. Case closed.
See my "quick review" post above, pg 11, 7/28.

Lied? You began the obvious farce, baiting me to play the game of boasting about penis size. I played along for the hell of it... a chance to "poke a little fun" back atcha.

Your are good at the ol' bait-and-switch tactic.
Now its a serious question of my size and your capacity! And now I'm a liar cuz I ain't, in fact, "hung like a horse."
In sum, I was guessing that you were not seriously inquiring as to the actual dimensions of my erection.
Sheesh! How 'bout them important points of dialogue reviewed in my 7/28 post? Oh well...
brokenhead
Posts: 2271
Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 8:51 am
Location: Boise

Re: Judging Others

Post by brokenhead »

protilius wrote:Sometimes a fire will burn itself out if you let it burn long enough on its own.

Feed the fire... and it can burn forever.
I kind of like to start hacking away to make fire breaks.

Because you say "sometimes" a fire will burn itself out. It always will, if you let it burn long enough. In the meantime, it can ruin your world.
mikiel
Posts: 588
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:27 am

Re: Judging Others

Post by mikiel »

Two quotes from Tomas:
Because I'm not too far from there, took a road trip to Eugene, Oregon, some time back. What he says about the 80-acre spread is true...Had to see what was happening as he was under attack from most every side (including Carl, Dan, Ramayana, you, and a bit from David, prince, Shah). He is a psychotherapist, a mason, a former hippie, a biker, AND a pretty big dude who'd kick your ass if he still thought that way or messed with his "family circle".
I never said I visited the trust, or met you personally. Do you have a reading dyslexia?
"What he says about the 80-acre spread is true...Had to see what was happening..."

Are you a mason?
Yes. And I'll give you the phone book listing verification.


Are you a psychotherapist?
Yes. But it is a private practice by word of mouth with no advertising and no listing... something you could not have verified.

All one need to do is look in a phone book to see if you have a business titled: Michael Mooney Masonry ... was I imagining that? Or, your home address in a City Directory at the public library.

Ok, so my address in the phone book will get you to "80." So will "Google Earth."



Asking generalized questions (or like a simple background check for $80) about someone doesn't require understand kosmos-cosmology.

We were travelling up to Washington state anyway, so I checked about town for a couple hours playing tourist and asking simplified questions about business in general. Now if you were the mayor or something like that I'd have gone about it a different way but visting your commune was never a priority. Driving near it was confirmation enough for me (that it existed) and never once thought about "meeting you" entered my mind.

Once again, where in my prior writing did I state that I "met" you, and/or "visited" the 80-acre spread?
"He is... a pretty big dude."
In fact, I am, but how could you know that without meeting me in person? (I have no pics on the net, on my site or anywhere.)

This is more than enough on the subject. The point is that I am strickly a truth teller, and you have presented the picture that we have met and that you have had the full tour of our land and my credentials. Thanks for the "support" but I am a real stickler about truth telling.
User avatar
protilius
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:31 pm

Re: Judging Others

Post by protilius »

brokenhead wrote:
protilius wrote:Sometimes a fire will burn itself out if you let it burn long enough on its own.

Feed the fire... and it can burn forever.
I kind of like to start hacking away to make fire breaks.

Because you say "sometimes" a fire will burn itself out. It always will, if you let it burn long enough. In the meantime, it can ruin your world.
Very true...

Sometimes the worst kind of damage can occur in people's worlds if you don't stand up to ignorance, hate, or wrongfully judgmental people.

Take the bully for example... A pitiful excuse for a human being that thrives on making other people miserable. Some of them even think they are the good guy. The damage they can do often lead to life long complexes in their victims...

Once any individual feels helpless to stop something from happening to them, a realization settles in... "I am not in control of my life, even though it is my own, I am helpless to stop this from happening to me."

It is likely one of the worst realizations a person can have.

Being Judged by people isn't quite as bad as getting the crap pounded out of you, but the damage another person's words can do can be much the same...

I actually just mentioned a point in another post that is relevant to this.

If a person believes in the ideas he is expressing, even if incorrect, it will only invoke the confidence of others if they don't question what is happening.

If you can convince another person that you are right, you can twist that point in any way you so choose to, ultimately gaining a form of power over another when concerning a perception of truth.

If this is what you are referring to... then surely, a fire can indeed burn a persons world down.
User avatar
Carl G
Posts: 2659
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:52 pm
Location: Arizona

Re: Judging Others

Post by Carl G »

protilius wrote:
Carl G wrote:Thanks for sharpening your focus, in your reply. Just saying poetry doesn't do it for me.
Poetry? You lost me buddy... Did you even read my post?

And I believe your original post implied that i was talking to myself and that I shouldn't do it in public. It mentioned nothing about your distaste for poetry.

Perhaps I'm not the one here that needs to sharpen his focus...

Have a good day sir.
Yes, I did read it, and afterwards I felt slightly dirty, as if I had been subjected to a meandering spirit, a disembodied ghost whispering an aimless slam poem into my ear. So I posted. Had I used the word "muse" instead of "talk" it might have been clearer. I was simply commenting on the style, and what I felt was lack of substance, of that post. Heck, you even referred to it as a "monologue" and I see you edited it after my post, actually following two of our exchanges. What does that tell us?

But really, not a big deal from my point of view. Welcome to the forum.
Good Citizen Carl
User avatar
Tomas
Posts: 4328
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 2:15 am
Location: North Dakota

Re: Judging Others

Post by Tomas »

.

Ol' mikiel, never knows when to shut up...



-tomas-
Are you a mason?

-mikiel-
Yes. And I'll give you the phone book listing verification.

tomas- Why should you? It's at the same address as your home is! Only that your home phone number is "unavailable." Eh?


-tomas-
Are you a psychotherapist?

-mikiel-
Yes. But it is a private practice by word of mouth with no advertising and no listing... something you could not have verified.

tomas-
The way you're always talking (advertising) about it on the internet means its no longer "private" and by "word of mouth". 22 years of private practice means one of two things:

1. You charge no fee, you are not licensed, thus no IRS queries.

2. ??


-tomas-
All one need to do is look in a phone book to see if you have a business titled: Michael Mooney Masonry ... was I imagining that? Or, your home address in a City Directory at the public library.

-mikiel-
Ok, so my address in the phone book will get you to "80." So will "Google Earth."

I've not much faith in google - there's easier (and much better) ways to track something down right quick.

Your work address is the same address as your home address... I'll leave it at that.

Because you have a legitimate business, you are both in the yellow/white pages search engines on the internet.



-tomas-
"He is... a pretty big dude."

-mikiel-
In fact, I am, but how could you know that without meeting me in person? (I have no pics on the net, on my site or anywhere.)

-tomas-
So when you are going about your business (wherever) are you always looking around and noticing every inquiring eye?

A discreet inquiry to the right person in Eugene will get me to within 10 minutes of someone who claims all of your grandoise accomplishments that you spout here.

-mikiel-
This is more than enough on the subject. The point is that I am strickly a truth teller, and you have presented the picture that we have met and that you have had the full tour of our land and my credentials. Thanks for the "support" but I am a real stickler about truth telling.


Once again, in my prior writings where have I stated about meeting you or touring your commune (retreat)?


PS - Perhaps Ramayana, prince, Dave Toast (and our pal, Dan) are on to something nefarious 'bout you...




.
User avatar
protilius
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:31 pm

Re: Judging Others

Post by protilius »

hmm.. give me a sec to respond, I don't want to fumble this one.
Last edited by protilius on Sun Aug 03, 2008 4:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
protilius
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:31 pm

Re: Judging Others

Post by protilius »

Thank you for clarifying... I wish your original posts did so much for me, perhaps I would not have been so dismissive or hostile.

I'm sorry my realistic and often observation based theories make you feel dirty. But it is how I think and feel....

If it is of any concern, I often feel that many of these posts I find here are very impersonal, without passion, and often harbor minds that have been comfortable in they're elitist perspectives for far to long without being challenged by a down to earth mind.

I've read much here... a lot of people seem to love not only the sound of they're voices but also stroking they're egos like a high school circle jerk of big words with little meaning. I do not need to prove this, any intelligent mind will see it for themselves.

I am educated, merely not in philosophy. I feel at a loss for that.

But beyond the extended vocabulary and elaborate references I see in this two dimensional portrait so many try to paint, I am unimpressed with the integrity and foundations many provide for me... Despite they're big words and bias opinions. And no... not implying your opinion is one of those observed.

It is high school with more vocabulary and better references to prove a point. With a site name called genius forums, it was bound to bring out a wanna be or three hundred.

Which that has me going back to the original post.... Judging others... Because now, I have not only judged you, but many other minds in this forum... a shame that this dialogue has inspired me to do so, I dislike placing borders and boundaries between myself and others... Even if some times necessary.

Ask me something about physics, astronomy, or people... and I may surprise you.

Science is a friend of mine.

Concerning people, a drunken playground often presents humanity in its most primal forms, giving me clarity on the most basic and advanced of human urges and behaviors.

I like it... it has been informative.

Perhaps my perspective adds a balance, or perhaps in your mind it only adds to what you may perceive to be as a counter productive opinion. Either way... it is my own, and I will not change it merely being others may not agree with me, but I am always open to logical criticism that provides a new perspective I have not considered.

Yours... felt hostile to me, so I responded accordingly. I work in a bar mind you... Our tolerance for unjustified criticism or behavior is low. I perceived your comment as just that.... Unjustified. Now that you've clarified, your opinion does not feel like a fact in this forum merely for you stating it (by reputation), but instead just another definable opinion I can try to understand and perhaps debate.

I do not know you, but perhaps in time I can better understand you.

Thank you for welcoming me to the posts. I hope to have more positive exchanges in the future.

Good day.
mikiel
Posts: 588
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:27 am

Re: Judging Others

Post by mikiel »

Tomas,
I'm just wondering to what lengths you went to stalk me, as I do value my privacy regarding some things, like my taxes.

I granted that my masonry business is published in the book, but you keep harping on it anyway. I'm still mystified as to how you have verified that I am a "big guy"... like did you stalk me personally, hire a detective, or what. (Ref: "So when you are going about your business (wherever) are you always looking around and noticing every inquiring eye?"

I have no idea what you are getting at with this creepy, cloak-n-dagger type comment:
"A discreet inquiry to the right person in Eugene will get me to within 10 minutes of someone who claims all of your grandoise accomplishments that you spout here."
Care to explain?
Finally, re:
'Once again, in my prior writings where have I stated about meeting you or touring your commune (retreat)?"

I got that you did a drive by of my address on Star Rd, the 80 acre land trust. I granted that too as a possible info source without an actual personal visit. Anyone can find the 80 on Google Earth and see my solar panels, wind plant, all three yurts and the benefactor's double-wide "mobile home.

Anyway, it is very creepy that you have stalked me personally. But to the extent that you have verified my truth telling here, what do you mean by the implication that there is a consensus that there is "something nefarious" about me?
User avatar
protilius
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:31 pm

Re: Judging Others

Post by protilius »

Carl G wrote:
protilius wrote:
Carl G wrote:Thanks for sharpening your focus, in your reply. Just saying poetry doesn't do it for me.
Poetry? You lost me buddy... Did you even read my post?

And I believe your original post implied that i was talking to myself and that I shouldn't do it in public. It mentioned nothing about your distaste for poetry.

Perhaps I'm not the one here that needs to sharpen his focus...

Have a good day sir.
Yes, I did read it, and afterwards I felt slightly dirty, as if I had been subjected to a meandering spirit, a disembodied ghost whispering an aimless slam poem into my ear. So I posted. Had I used the word "muse" instead of "talk" it might have been clearer. I was simply commenting on the style, and what I felt was lack of substance, of that post. Heck, you even referred to it as a "monologue" and I see you edited it after my post, actually following two of our exchanges. What does that tell us?

But really, not a big deal from my point of view. Welcome to the forum.
Oh, and as far as editing my posts, I often like to fix tiny mistakes, but rarely alter any fundimental thoughts I am trying to portray.

Spell check doesn't catch everything, I just like to be neat when I can.

I also can't help but feel that you continually advance your oposement to my opinion with "new thoughts" in further posts. As if you had to think about it first, now that your comment has made an enemy, you are struggling for new ways to discredit me or simply turn a tide of logic against me being you didn't have the patience to simply blast me effectively the first time.

My original post had many valid points that you wrote off as "poetry." Not in your first post, but second after you felt the need to find an elaborate way to attack my perspective.

"Don't put your hand where you wanna put your face she said" comes to mind...

Speak your mind if you intend to challenge some one, don't give me foreplay and then change your tune when I give you enough information to do so.

You don't strike me as a wise person, merely a thoughtful and bias one that doesn't like to loose.
Last edited by protilius on Sun Aug 03, 2008 5:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Carl G
Posts: 2659
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:52 pm
Location: Arizona

Re: Judging Others

Post by Carl G »

I elaborated because you asked.
Good Citizen Carl
User avatar
protilius
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:31 pm

Re: Judging Others

Post by protilius »

Carl G wrote:I elaborated because you asked.
I expect any individual with respect for his fellow man to do so the first time.

I suppose that would be too much to ask from a person attempting to "judge" another.

Once again, your lack of response and logic only furthers the points made in my "poetry" posted originally.

Interesting that the first individual to challenge my thoughts would become the theme of the ideas I've presented.
User avatar
Carl G
Posts: 2659
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:52 pm
Location: Arizona

Re: Judging Others

Post by Carl G »

More poetry.
Good Citizen Carl
User avatar
Kelly Jones
Posts: 2665
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2006 3:51 pm
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: Judging Others

Post by Kelly Jones »

A few interesting quotes from this thread:
Diebert wrote:Liberation of the poor and oppressed, this feverish fire
Yes, a better kind of fire is, burning-up unreasonable ideas.

Protilius wrote:If a person believes in the ideas he is expressing, even if incorrect, it will only invoke the confidence of others if they don't question what is happening. If you can convince another person that you are right, you can twist that point in any way you so choose to, ultimately gaining a form of power over another when concerning a perception of truth. If this is what you are referring to... then surely, a fire can indeed burn a persons world down.
Yes, this kind of fire is burning a mirage, so it burns like the timeless fires of hell. It has no relationship to reason.

Protilius wrote:Once any individual feels helpless to stop something from happening to them, a realization settles in... "I am not in control of my life, even though it is my own, I am helpless to stop this from happening to me." It is likely one of the worst realizations a person can have.
It is usually wishful thinking. Not in the case of an old person, someone very set in their ways, or someone who's brain has been damaged.


KJ
User avatar
protilius
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:31 pm

Re: Judging Others

Post by protilius »

Carl G wrote:More poetry.
Its official... you are a dumbass with a computer,.. You should burn it and rid us of your judgmental and counter productive perspective.
User avatar
Carl G
Posts: 2659
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:52 pm
Location: Arizona

Re: Judging Others

Post by Carl G »

At least I've prompted you out of your mild-manneredness.

Again, welcome to the forum.
Good Citizen Carl
User avatar
protilius
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:31 pm

Re: Judging Others

Post by protilius »

Carl G wrote:At least I've prompted you out of your mild-manneredness.

Again, welcome to the forum.
I dont like your opinion, but I do have to say you do a good job of keeping your cool and responding with political correctness (to an extent).

I respect that, and again, I hope our future dialogues will be a more positive exchange.

I expect that it would be an experience worth having if you and I were to ever find our way to the same page.

I apologize for my "dumbass" condensation towered you, and regret being over emotional in light of my inability to except your opinion as a valid one while drinking. Haha...

good day sir, thank you for welcoming me despite our differences in expression of thought.

I may think in poetry, but my message carries no less meaning.

So if poetry is all you see, then I suppose I should thank you for considering me elegant enough with words to actually "be" a poet.

Cheers:)
User avatar
protilius
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:31 pm

Re: Judging Others

Post by protilius »

Kelly Jones wrote:A few interesting quotes from this thread:
Diebert wrote:Liberation of the poor and oppressed, this feverish fire
Yes, a better kind of fire is, burning-up unreasonable ideas.

Protilius wrote:If a person believes in the ideas he is expressing, even if incorrect, it will only invoke the confidence of others if they don't question what is happening. If you can convince another person that you are right, you can twist that point in any way you so choose to, ultimately gaining a form of power over another when concerning a perception of truth. If this is what you are referring to... then surely, a fire can indeed burn a persons world down.
Yes, this kind of fire is burning a mirage, so it burns like the timeless fires of hell. It has no relationship to reason.

Protilius wrote:Once any individual feels helpless to stop something from happening to them, a realization settles in... "I am not in control of my life, even though it is my own, I am helpless to stop this from happening to me." It is likely one of the worst realizations a person can have.
It is usually wishful thinking. Not in the case of an old person, someone very set in their ways, or someone who's brain has been damaged.


KJ

Concerning my comments on burning... Indeed, I can apreciate that.

Concerning your thoughts on wishful thinking... I dont quite follow, please elaborate.
Dave Toast
Posts: 509
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2003 6:22 pm

Re: Judging Others

Post by Dave Toast »

protilius wrote:So if poetry is all you see, then I suppose I should thank you for considering me elegant enough with words to actually "be" a poet.
Poetry, at least in the sense discussed here, is rather the polar opposite of linguistic elegance.
mikiel
Posts: 588
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:27 am

Re: Judging Others

Post by mikiel »

Dave Toast wrote:
protilius wrote:So if poetry is all you see, then I suppose I should thank you for considering me elegant enough with words to actually "be" a poet.
Poetry, at least in the sense discussed here, is rather the polar opposite of linguistic elegance.
Protilius,
Just FYI as a newbie here, the cult dogma, propagated by the Founding Three and accepted as Gospel by all followers, is that poetry (actually aesthetics in general) is considered sissy stuff, unworthy of the superior rationality of the masculine perspective.
Locked