Judging Others

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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Fujaro
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Re: Judging Others

Post by Fujaro »

Trevor Salyzyn wrote:Fujaro, it looks like David might have been making a judgement based on observation, not logic alone, which he does from time to time.
We al think we do. And now?
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David Quinn
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Re: Judging Others

Post by David Quinn »

Trevor Salyzyn wrote:Fujaro, it looks like David might have been making a judgement based on observation, not logic alone, which he does from time to time.
When it comes to empirical matters, such as assessing a person's psychology and level of wisdom, observation always plays a role.

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brokenhead
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Re: Judging Others

Post by brokenhead »

Fujaro wrote:
David Quinn wrote:It isn't mind-reading, but the mundane act of observing actions and words and drawing conclusions from them.

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It's that gran' ole hotline with god, that hits us with apriori knowledge ;-)
It's a party line. So let's have a party.
Fujaro
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Re: Judging Others

Post by Fujaro »

David Quinn wrote:
Trevor Salyzyn wrote:Fujaro, it looks like David might have been making a judgement based on observation, not logic alone, which he does from time to time.
When it comes to empirical matters, such as assessing a person's psychology and level of wisdom, observation always plays a role.
Isn't that what you call speculation?
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David Quinn
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Re: Judging Others

Post by David Quinn »

Yes. There are different forms of speculation, though. Some are more accurate and penetrative than others, even though it all remains in the realm of uncertainty.

Scientific speculation, for example, usually has more worth and validity than the speculations of a young child, given that it methodically devises predictive theories that are rigorously tested. Similarly, the speculations of a perceptive philosopher, one who can distinguish between wisdom and folly, also have their worth.

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mikiel
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Re: Judging Others

Post by mikiel »

What would it take to convince you that I am an absolute truth teller?
Telling some truth would be a start.
I'll be the judge of who's deluded around here if I'm the subject.
A person can't hide what he is. He reveals himself in everything that he says and does. A perceptive outsider can know more about a person at a glance than the person himself can with decades of unperceptive observation. [/quote]
This looks like a good time/place for direct Q&A clarification.

Upon what exactly do you base your accusation that I am lying? [/quote
]Ditto. No answer. No possible answer. It's obvious.

I don't think you consciously try to lie. It is more a case of not having enough ability to tell the truth due to some large mental blocks, an over-inflated opinion of yourself, and a lack of insight into your own psychology and behaviour. Your belief in your perfect enlightenment has unwittingly become your prison.

So now I'm not "a liar"as previously many times accused but just lacking the "ability" to tell "the truth" as you know it from limited (sans transcendence, mystic) perspective.
There is no personal self. Absolute truth from enlightened perspective, from which you can not yet See. I have no "large mental blocks." They are all your own projections. (And I know them when I see them after all these years dealing with delusional projections such as yours... no kidding!)

I have no "beliefs." See my "Gnosis: Beyond Belief" page. Liberation... (review that page too!) has no prision. Enlightenment is the absolute freedom... which you clearly do not yet know.



Do you really think you know me better "at a glance" than I know myself? You seem unfamiliar with what transcendence is, but I've spent about 14,000 hours in that realm, able to observe my life from totally objective perspective, in spite of your apparent belief that such is not possible.
If you do, your delusion is one of the most grandiose I've ever encountered in my whole career as a psychotherapist. [/quote]
"You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes, nor figs from thistles." - Jesus.

I invite you to visit our 80 acre land trust. As First Trustee here I can give you the tour of the "fruits"...how to live in harmony with God, each other, and Nature. You seem to have no idea. (A "logic robot? Not quite human?) I am curious to meet you in person.

Seriously. If you respond as a real human being I will PM you the details and we can make an appointment. (I know it's a long way from Australia.)

I am presently doing master masonry on a mansion in the Coburg hills north of Eugene.
Fruits? Big money in the bank is another of the fruits of the labors of an honest and skilled workman. And a skilled craftsman often enjoys his work, as I do.
Frankly, I think you live in your head and don't appreciate much of these 'fruits" of the productive life of which you speak.

PS: I'm a computer tech idiot. I got the "Only three embedded quotes allowed" prompt over and over until I just chopped the quotes brackets until it posted. Fucking limits on "embedded quotes." And i've just barely started using these cute little boxes that 'highlight' quotes. I' druther just do without them. But I'm an old fart who gives not a shit about these cool quote conveniences.
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Carl G
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Re: Judging Others

Post by Carl G »

Let's see, my IQ is 180 but I can't figure out (can't be bothered) quote functions, I'm enlightened I've drifted in the Pacific 10 hours and meditated for 14,000, I'm a master stone mason my limit is 250 pounds, and I've got no ego but I do have x inches and can really please the ladies. All right, I threw in the last part but is that about it?
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mikiel
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Re: Judging Others

Post by mikiel »

Carl G wrote:Let's see, my IQ is 180 but I can't figure out (can't be bothered) quote functions, I'm enlightened I've drifted in the Pacific 10 hours and meditated for 14,000, I'm a master stone mason my limit is 250 pounds, and I've got no ego but I do have x inches and can really please the ladies. All right, I threw in the last part but is that about it?
Cute, Carl.
"I" is a figure of speach. Very awkward to avoid its use. Most folks are baffled by radical honesty, in which one doesn't subscribe to the social conditioning programs which have become standard protocol for humility. So "I" tell my truth and you ridicule me as an arrogant egotist. I don't mind. I know you can't help it, as you are thoroughly programed, as above.

This brain scored 170 on the SBIS and 178 on the WAIS, averaging 174. The tests administered by the institute, of which I have spoken placed me near the one-in-a-million level of rarity rather than the one-in-600,000 my 174 gives as "rarity of occurrence." This based on comparison with all others tested, from rarity of one-in-a-half-million to the highest scores and extremes of rarity.
So, there you have it again. (Are you listening in Tomas?)

My story of awakening is true. I spent 25 yrs meditating an hour a day before '94 and have continued since. (Do the math, Tomas.... ref: his last tirade in my "Cosmology" thread.) I did, in fact drift out to sea and was brought back in by the current, nearly dead and without ego. The usual functions of ego eventually came back, but I have never been on automatic programing since the transformation, and realize that there is no true *identity* separate from the One "I Am" in all.

Yes, I am a master mason... can lift 280 pounds. Also a psychoherapist (MA) with 22 yrs experience... 8+ in crisis counseling and 14 as a transpersonal counselor.

I am First Trustee of an 80 acre land trust and intentional community.

I think that about covers it resume'-wise. OK?
(Oh, yes, I am still lame at computer skills. I know it's quite a disappointment to many of you here, me being an enlightened high genius, and all. Y'all have every right to expect me to excell at everything. Sorry.
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Carl G
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Re: Judging Others

Post by Carl G »

I think that's boasting rather than radical honesty as none of those personal details are particularly relevant here. But hey, maybe that's just me.
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mikiel
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Re: Judging Others

Post by mikiel »

Carl G wrote:I think that's boasting rather than radical honesty as none of those personal details are particularly relevant here. But hey, maybe that's just me.
So you think I should just roll over and play dead as you heap on your ridicule? Is being humble so great a virtue that truth telling shoud be sacrificed upon its altar?

No, its not just you. Most folks willing accept the social conditioning that exalts humility and condems truth-telling as boasting.

I'm not one of them, and I'm not the only one who practices radical honesty. But suit yourself... just don't expect me to be more like you and the vast majority humble sheep.
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Carl G
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Re: Judging Others

Post by Carl G »

mikiel wrote:
Carl G wrote:I think that's boasting rather than radical honesty as none of those personal details are particularly relevant here. But hey, maybe that's just me.
So you think I should just roll over and play dead as you heap on your ridicule? Is being humble so great a virtue that truth telling shoud be sacrificed upon its altar?

No, its not just you. Most folks willing accept the social conditioning that exalts humility and condems truth-telling as boasting.

I'm not one of them, and I'm not the only one who practices radical honesty. But suit yourself... just don't expect me to be more like you and the vast majority humble sheep.
You apparently didn't get the point. It's about relevance. Do I need to describe my own heroic days on the farm, to get my points across on an internet philosophy board? Do I need to post my IQ? Do I need to discuss my own spiritual questing in Hawaii, or my own meditation history? I haven't yet.

You seem to be looking for some sort of validation or recognition of your authority on a subject. Doesn't come by writing your resume, it comes from the sense you make with your words. Ironically here you fall down due to admitted inability or interest to master the medium of computer usage and the written word.

Radical honesty is a false argument. Or do you go around telling everyone every time you take a shit.
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brokenhead
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Re: Judging Others

Post by brokenhead »

mikiel wrote:Y'all have every right to expect me to excell at everything. Sorry.
That would be "excel," pardner.
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Shahrazad
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Re: Judging Others

Post by Shahrazad »

Mikiel,
Is being humble so great a virtue that truth telling shoud be sacrificed upon its altar?
The fact is that none of the claims you make about yourself are verifiable through this media, and you know it. You have no other reason for telling us about them except to brag and to gain acceptance in the internet community.

Since none of this is verifiable, why don't you go ahead and tell us the size of your penis, so we are all really impressed? In the name of truth-telling of course.

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Iolaus
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Re: Judging Others

Post by Iolaus »

Y'all have every right to expect me to excell at everything.
That would be "excel," pardner.
So I guess spelling isn't on the list either.

I still haven't quite figured out why so many people here are so annoyed with Mikiel.
Truth is a pathless land.
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Carl G
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Re: Judging Others

Post by Carl G »

I am not annoyed. I would like to help him to see. I'm his mirror.
Good Citizen Carl
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Shahrazad
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Re: Judging Others

Post by Shahrazad »

Iolaus, that is hard to believe. You didn't see the thread where Mikiel castigated Dan for being an arrogant bigot, and then turns around and engages in that same behavior himself? I think it was in this very same thread. He humiliates Tomas needlessly, then claims he was just "truth-telling".

As for myself, the reason I am so annoyed is hypocrisy. It isn't my fault, as I have been programmed to dislike that particular feature. That and arrogance. But if you are able to overlook those two features, I guess I can see how you might find Mikiel a cool bloke.

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mikiel
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Re: Judging Others

Post by mikiel »

Iolaus wrote:
Y'all have every right to expect me to excell at everything.
That would be "excel," pardner.
So I guess spelling isn't on the list either.

I still haven't quite figured out why so many people here are so annoyed with Mikiel.
No, I'm not as great a speller as most might expect from my IQ scores... which are factual. In fact I used to be a lot better speller than I am now, as my brain must be losing some detail at age 63. The saving grace (from my perspective) is that I don't give a shit about these more trivial skills (grammar, spelling, computer tech, etc.) as compared to what enlightenment is, which I know firsthand, and the universal Reality that religion calls God... my (well, Ken Wilber's) "Kosmos," the direct *knowing* of Whom is gnosis... enlightenment. It's good to keep a perspective on the relative importance of these values.
But in my "defense" (forum: don't go off about "me defending myself"... an obvious ego function... just info clarification)... I do know how to spell excel but just hit the "el" twice cuz I sometimes get sloppy with my typing... a sin which has often been pointed out in harsh judgemental manner on these boards.

Thanks for your last statement. Egocentrics *always* get annoyed by anyone "claiming" enlightenment. The irony is that there is no personal identity left to "claim" it, but Truth will be told by individuals who *know* the One Identity in all.... whether the vast majority, who still live in egoic 'programing' as "myself" like it or not.
Thanks. I like your open mindedness. Very rare here!
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Carl G
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Re: Judging Others

Post by Carl G »

I can bench press 450. Hey, just being truthful.
Good Citizen Carl
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Carl G
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Re: Judging Others

Post by Carl G »

Glad a leest a few hear -- hey, Anna! -- are open-minded enough not to hate me for it.
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mikiel
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Re: Judging Others

Post by mikiel »

Carl G wrote:I can bench press 450. Hey, just being truthful.
Very cool, and i could belive you... or not... what does it matter? In real life we could prove our "claims." I am willing. When I lift a stone near 280, I use a strap with handles. Getting a good grip is half the battle. But I am in fact a "big strong man" as you must also be, unless you are pulling my chain. (I really don't have a chain, being a free man.)
Iolaus
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Re: Judging Others

Post by Iolaus »

Iolaus, that is hard to believe. You didn't see the thread where Mikiel castigated Dan for being an arrogant bigot, and then turns around and engages in that same behavior himself? I think it was in this very same thread. He humiliates Tomas needlessly, then claims he was just "truth-telling".

As for myself, the reason I am so annoyed is hypocrisy. It isn't my fault, as I have been programmed to dislike that particular feature. That and arrogance. But if you are able to overlook those two features, I guess I can see how you might find Mikiel a cool bloke.
Well, of course I came into this thing in midstream, so I don't know how it started. I could assume Dan gives as good as he gets and might have started it. Why he's so mean to Tomas I haven't figured out. Tomas does not seem to react in kind.

It's true, Mikiel likes to fight.

I guess I like him because we have such similar interests.

Spelling, by the way, isn't connected to IQ, I don't think. Although it is an important brain function some lack. Myself, I was always a great speller and won the spelling bees at school. I might be smart enough, but spelling isn't an intellectual skill, it is just a form of memory. When I spelled a word in a spelling contest, I simply visualize the word before my eyes and read it off, just as if it was on a printed page.
I am not annoyed. I would like to help him to see. I'm his mirror.
Oh, well that is a useful service indeed!
Truth is a pathless land.
mikiel
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Re: Judging Others

Post by mikiel »

Shahrazad wrote:Iolaus, that is hard to believe. You didn't see the thread where Mikiel castigated Dan for being an arrogant bigot, and then turns around and engages in that same behavior himself? I think it was in this very same thread. He humiliates Tomas needlessly, then claims he was just "truth-telling".

As for myself, the reason I am so annoyed is hypocrisy. It isn't my fault, as I have been programmed to dislike that particular feature. That and arrogance. But if you are able to overlook those two features, I guess I can see how you might find Mikiel a cool bloke.

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Sorry that you are still a programed robot. Idon't think there are any valid stats on how many people are enlightened... so many varios egocentric opinions about it and all... but once you get over your "self" and reaslize identity in the universal "I Am",ther is no doubt. Gnosis is absolute... not a matter of consensus among the illusory 'separate identities'... egoic consciousness, such as you clearly demonstrate here.

You never answered my challenge on the question of egoic judgement vs selfless discernment.
Go figure. Having never experienced the latter, how could you comment intelligently?
Nothing personal here, sis. We are all one family. Some know our divine identity, and some, yourself included, do not.

No, shame intended. I have "seen" that we will all awaken by early 2014. See my pyramid prophecy page.
Iolaus
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Re: Judging Others

Post by Iolaus »

I have "seen" that we will all awaken by early 2014.
If we live.
See my pyramid prophecy page.
Where?
Truth is a pathless land.
mikiel
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Re: Judging Others

Post by mikiel »

My Pyramid Prophecy page has been omitted from my website (www.consciousunity.org). It was pasted on by an amateur, last page published. My whole site was created by a student, and I don't kow how to publish on it, or restore this page. I'll contact my carrier, Eugene Free Net, and get it back ASAP.
Thanks for your interest.
mikiel
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Re: Judging Others

Post by mikiel »

Shahrazad wrote:Mikiel,
Is being humble so great a virtue that truth telling shoud be sacrificed upon its altar?
The fact is that none of the claims you make about yourself are verifiable through this media, and you know it. You have no other reason for telling us about them except to brag and to gain acceptance in the internet community.

Since none of this is verifiable, why don't you go ahead and tell us the size of your penis, so we are all really impressed? ..
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Just late night browsing and found this interesting post i had overlooked.
My reason (for sharing my story) transcends the personal motives you project upon me from your own sense of self and ego's social needs. Transpersonal counseling is my present profession, as masonry is my "trade." My counsel to you is that you learn what "transpersonal" means. It might be a first step toward learning what enlightenment acually is, at least intellectualy.. Then, after total surrender of your sense of self-importance... actually total surrender of the illusion of self... you will find the greatest Gift in the whole universe... that which I am here to share... Unity in the Divine... the One consciousness/identity in all.
That is why I am here.
Why are you here?

The fact is, my whole resume is factual and "verifiable." The nice thing about the internet is that all you sharks don't get to come into my pool for a feeding frenzie on my flesh... meaning... come into my meditation/spiritual dialogue circle as hecklers or turn our land trust community into a refugee camp for lost souls without a clue to the meaning of unconditional respect, let alone universal love.

I am grateful that you are not in my face, literally, with the kind of judgement you put out in relatively harmless internet attacks.

Oh, BTW, I am "hung like a horse"... way bigger than a tight little "twat" like you could handle... "In the name of truth-telling of course."
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