Beyond God and Evil

[Iolaus]

Sher,

Your opposition to God seems like it has an emotional, aversion component.

Also, it isn't rational to say that belief in God is irrational.

[Shahrazad]

David,

Why don't you like the concept of God?

A being who is the cause of everything, but is himself uncaused? It makes no sense to me. It's a fabrication of the human mind, and the only reason to believe in it is to feel good.

-

[Shahrazad]

Iolaus,

Your opposition to God seems like it has an emotional, aversion component.

If so, that emotion is frustration. Frustration that I just don't see God while everybody else does. There was a time when I even tried to believe in him.

Also, in Christianity, I was taught that God was mean enough to cause us to suffer for eternity. It has negative connotations for me.

-

[Iolaus]

Shahrazad,

Yes, I suspected as much.
But I am God's knight in shining armor, prepared to defend Her honor against those slanders of His character.

It's just slander. Don't believe it.

A being who is the cause of everything, but is himself uncaused? It makes no sense to me.

But the problem is, that the opposite makes less sense. There has got to be something, something out of our mind's ability to grasp (at least, I have not grasped it, and am I not the most intelligent person who has ever lived?) that has an existence unrelated to what we normally think of as existence. Something not caused. Because everything we are familiar with, is caused and must be caused.

For this reason existence is inexplicable. But we can definitely surmise that there is something uncaused, something different, of a different order, for there is no other option.

Anyway, you can start there, with pondering that.

You need not get personal about it if it doesn't suit your fancy. But just realize that we are in a very, very strange situation here, and this world is bizarre and inexplicable, and when you really look at it, what do we know? What do we really know?

Quite possibly, planet earth is a madhouse.

Personally, I'm pretty sure we're in hell, and that is what's wrong. But it's not a bad hell, and you can get out.

And I'm not even drunk!

[David Quinn]

David,

Why don't you like the concept of God?

A being who is the cause of everything, but is himself uncaused? It makes no sense to me. It's a fabrication of the human mind, and the only reason to believe in it is to feel good.
-

What about: Nature is the cause of everything, and yet itself is uncaused. Do you have the same problems with that?

-

[David Quinn]

Why don't you like the concept of God?

For myself, I think it is romantic philosophy, rather than reality. I quite dislike you using the word. Why make the totality into such an entity?

For the reasons already stated. I don't care if a concept is romantic or not, as long as it does the job of stimulating the mind into enlightenment. All concepts should be viewed as springboards into understanding; the understanding is what counts, not the flavour and position of the springboards.

Some of you need to look into your allergic reaction to the concept of God. It is unnecessary and potentially restricting in regards to your own mind.

-

[Shahrazad]

David,

What about: Nature is the cause of everything, and yet itself is uncaused. Do you have the same problems with that?

Yes, though to a lesser extent. At least nature is not a person.

-

[Think]

well, how about the contradictions in the bible? Did God intend error's? if you say no... that means the error's were accidental, meaning that there could be error's that we have never found in the bible, meaning that anything the bible says could prove to be false.

i get the jehova's witnesses that come to preach to me on this subject all the time. its one of my favorite discussions heheh

[David Quinn]

David,

What about: Nature is the cause of everything, and yet itself is uncaused. Do you have the same problems with that?

Yes, though to a lesser extent. At least nature is not a person.

You have difficulty wrapping your mind around the notion of timelessness? For that is what an uncaused Nature essentially means - that it is timeless.

-

[Beingof1]

David Quinn:

Being:
If what you say here is true; "from a spiritual perspective the incident was insignificant, having no more significance than that of, say, a mite of dust settling on a table"? Why are you making such a big fuss?

David:
As always, to point people's minds to the nature of God.

And what is the nature of God?

How can you help anyone or yourself if you do not believe you can? Could you explain this to me?

Is spirituality a matter of becoming a glorified doctor?

Yes. I suppose not caring makes a better - what?

What makes you write? What makes you think about philosophy? Why is this your passion?

Have you healed yourself yet?

Or does it go deeper than that and involve perfecting oneself, and others, in the light of truth? What do you think?

So you do seek to heal others and yourself.

In that case, why do you have a problem with me helping others? We are are all at the place we believe we are. After all, the sun does not shine - unless you believe it does.

Or, could you tell me if the sun ever shined and you did not believe it and that way we can falsify my 'silly' statement. Its so obvious its silly I know, but it does make the point and I have noticed many who seem to overlook the clarity of their own observation.

This usually means a lack of forgiveness as resentment clouds judgment.To see clearly, one must be made perfect by and through forgiveness. To not be diffused by negative grounding. To expand.

In any case, you didn't answer my question. How many times have you healed people? I'm curious to know whether you have made a habit of it or not.

I do not think you asked me.

First of all, people always heal themselves tho sometimes I get to participate. I enjoy that very much but it sometimes is an incrdible amount of work as the results have not always been spontaneous. I at one time was used in this matter quite frquently. I am not nearly as active in this regard for over at least 5 or 6 years ago.

I see not one here actually believes that you can get results with faith, how very, very sad. All it takes is reading the scriptures and putting them to the test. Jesus said the signs would follow them that believe, and they most certainly do. You think I am the only one? I can assure you, there are many who believe, they do not speak much about it because of the density of the human race as is evident here.

How many hospitals do they run?

Quite a few actually. There are many in some Asian countries like China and India.

Hospitals are great for crisis intervention, no doubt there. Say a car accident. When it comes to chronic care, they can be clueless. In Asia, many different healing techniques that are considered in the West as 'not mainstream' are quite succesful such as herbs, mystical and ancupuncter. Chinese medicine is profound especially, it is ancient.

If a person's mind is so coarse and crudely developed that he has to rely on a seemingly miraculous event to awaken him from his slumber and start taking God seriously, then I can see value in that. But ideally, he should be able to quickly move on and start discerning the nature of God in everything. Otherwise, what would be the point of his leaving his slumber in the first place?

So now miracles can happen but it is because of a course mind because you already know they happen?

When did you see a miacle David? If you are going to require me to answer your questions, asked and otherwise, quid pro quo.

The problem is, people become very attached to these unusual events in their lives and start twisting and distorting the concept of God in order to fit them in, so as to be able to hang onto them. So while they have may started out with good intentions, they quickly and unwittingly slide into the evil of worshiping a false idol.

Your ego is playing mind ninja games on you - can you not see it?

Look David, I know there is the state of being that understands that all is transcendant and so, it is all miraculous. You have just clipped your wings thinking they were not needed in trying to fly there.

You do not experience truth through denial.



Carl G

My point was aimed at Alex, not you. Then Dan muddied the contextual waters.

Then I am sorry Carl, I misunderstood.

I was suprised at the crop circle thing I was being asked to explain and my head had a hard time understanding because it was ignoring my heart - tricksey head.


Alex Jacob:

Alex:
I'm curious about your view on the Bible as encoded scripture, Mr Beingof1.

Being:
The question I asked was in good faith. You mentioned that the Bible was the most richly encoded scripture you had read, and I was genuinely interested in why you thought this.

I was all inclusive in asking if anyone believed and I honestly did think of you when I posted that.

I did answer your question right here. Why did you skip my answer but included (snipped) what was meant for several? Have we ever spoke?

Being:
It is encoded by you. It is in your DNA, being, consciousness, and mind.

You are wrong on your first point, but my understanding of faith is built on a different platform than that of Christian evangelism.

My first point? What am I wrong about? Did you point it out because I cannot see it?

What makes you think my 'platform' is Christian evangelism - I hardly talk to anyone anymore. I was very busy at it at one time but there are many others beginning to see and experience the understanding of who and what you are.

I tend to see 'faith' as being highly relevant but I tend to see the area in which faith operates as inner, psychological. I do believe that there are some persons, from different traditions, who through use of their energy-of-faith (spirit, chi, ache, shakti) can from time to time cause very unusual things to happen. In other words, it happens from time to time that the fabric of reality is penetrated by something, someone, that seems to operate from outside of the strict laws that seem to govern things here.

That seems to be the reality.

The funny part is - it could be very common.

The occurrences that are part of my own personal faith have not been of the order you describe but they have nevertheless been magnificent.

In my experience, they are so profound, they are not duplicated as like the entire universe. Every event is a one time occurance and so, all is miraculous. Here, David and myself describe reality as one and the same.

The experiences you had could not possibly be a duplication of mine, they are all one of a kind in an infinite environment.

Each tradition, it seems to me, has strengths and weaknesses. Personally, I think there is a very powerful core in the Christian traditions, but it also seems to me that it must always function on a fringe, on the very far edges of the fringe, because in a real sense it is otherworldly.

Like you said above - from time to time the bottle is unplugged and a dijin pops out. To stick ones head in the sand when it happens because of fear or self imposed limitations is not healthy.

Whenever it tries to mainstream it must transform into something it is not. Back in my university days I met a Christian Jew, a very unusual man who wandered around as a sort of teacher, preacher or prophet. He would show up in churches just out of the blue and talk to people. They looked at him like he was insane, but he had a strong impact on them, and to observe his from a distance, to see the reactions he got, and to see him operating like a Biblical prophet---something untamed, something original, something that must always speak from the outside, it gave me a different understanding. He would base his decisions on a sort of 'sortes Biblicae', using the Bible as a divination tool. I've often wondered what became of him.

Interesting.

Christianity, the Christian ethic, the Christian potency---it is a pretty involved subject. But in my own case I see Christianity as going through some very significant changes. (CF The Changing Christian World). The lower-level evangelism is adapting itself in new ways, and this is something that happens in culture generally, and religious culture specifically. The message of Christianity (to come out of the world of mire) is far-reaching. I think a 'sophisticated' Christianity stands many times above the wishy-washiness of so many other 'imported' traditions.

Christianity, is probably the most diverse religion on the planet.

I think it would be impossible, though, for me to even consider faith healing someone who had just been hit by a car.

My dad was a faith healer and so was my granpa.

I saw, with my own eyes, growing up as a young boy things that could not be explained by what I learned at school.

Like a man with cancer where they had cut out a piece of his skull to examine the brain and found that he had cancer so bad they gave him less than two weeks. They simply sewed the skin back over the hole.

My dad and another minister went to the hospital and prayed for him, not only was he healed but a bone appeared where they had cut it out instantly. The head of admin said to let these men have free access anywhere in the hospital.

You see, there are many more than most would think in the medical industry that are aware of occurances like this - its just a very, very contentious subject. It could even cost you a job when you have a materialist crusader in the boss role.



DHodges:

Does anyone here believe?

Not a word of it.

The problem with most Christians I have met is they do not either.



Diebert:

Humility starts with constantly humbling oneself before the amazing capacities of the believing, emotion ridden mind to play tricks, no matter how long or with how many people one shares the trick. Being wooed by what appears to be happening is the fallen state, not that of salvation.

Yup, we should deny that we remember our childhood, life experiences, and anything and everything - so that we may float to the bliss of a strong steady state of denial.

That way, if we forget everything, we are sure to get that virus called delusion. The only problem with that Diebert, is it makes you a vegetable.



Dan Rowden:

The fool sees significance in the unusual, but cannot see the mundane in his attribution of significance.

You certainly have a way of complicating the obvious and trivializing the momentus.

-- James Kemper


Iolaus:

Beingof1,

How do you pray?

To get results?

With everything in me.

Iolaus:
It was a sincere question. Did you use words?

It was a sincere answer. Sometimes I do and sometimes I do not.

I am going to give you something at no charge. Do not try to walk on water at first, if you will. Tackle something that does not require alot of faith and build from there. Touch a person who is ill (like the flu) and let them know what you are doing so that the connection is made and Do not let go until both of you believe healing has occured.

Being:
I see not one here actually believes that you can get results with faith, how very, very sad.

Iolaus:
I am quite sure you can.

Usually it is - in these conversations(this is not the first rodeo I have had with QRS) it is just myself and one of these three or a combination (usually at least two). I overstated and I did not mean you either as I did think about you when I wrote that but thought both you and Alex would have understood. I see now I should have been more precise, so ease back, I sincerly did not mean you, I meant the admin.

I agree with Alex, it is not something owned by Christianity. I don't know if you think it is. I did ask if you were a Christian, or what sort of Christian might be a better question.

I follow Christ's teachings yes. I believe it is something so noble that it has yet to be fully realized by the human race as a whole. I believe it is an adolescent view of reality to stick your tongue out at Jesus, yes I do.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Yup, we should deny that we remember our childhood, life experiences, and anything and everything - so that we may float to the bliss of a strong steady state of denial.

You should perhaps indeed start examining your childhood once more, the habitual thoughts and beliefs which seem largely unchanged and unchallenged by you - they still require lots of magical thought to maintain. It's you who floats on a bliss that is preventing you to critically take even one good look at one of your magical tales. Because there's the risk that if one turns out to be a big error in your interpretation, the whole house of cards comes down. It's like having to admit that one core biblical text or character would have been made up - what stops one from doubting them all now?

And then, indeed, you might turn into a vegetable, some state of shock, so I can really understand you're trying to avoid this and rather twist and turn, lie and steal. Still you're here, always inviting a loving, compassionate scrub-down of your perceptional window, no matter if it's your unwillingness to examine your 'miracles' or your failure in examining biblical 'evidence' or the lack of it.

[David Quinn]

David Quinn:

Being:
If what you say here is true; "from a spiritual perspective the incident was insignificant, having no more significance than that of, say, a mite of dust settling on a table"? Why are you making such a big fuss?

David:
As always, to point people's minds to the nature of God.

And what is the nature of God?

The first thing to understand is that He has no interest in miracles. No understanding of God is possible without this realization.

Is spirituality a matter of becoming a glorified doctor?

Yes. I suppose not caring makes a better - what?

What makes you write? What makes you think about philosophy? Why is this your passion?

Because I can see beyond the realm of miracles.

B: I see not one here actually believes that you can get results with faith, how very, very sad. All it takes is reading the scriptures and putting them to the test. Jesus said the signs would follow them that believe, and they most certainly do. You think I am the only one? I can assure you, there are many who believe, they do not speak much about it because of the density of the human race as is evident here.

DQ: How many hospitals do they run?

Quite a few actually. There are many in some Asian countries like China and India.

Hospitals are great for crisis intervention, no doubt there. Say a car accident. When it comes to chronic care, they can be clueless. In Asia, many different healing techniques that are considered in the West as 'not mainstream' are quite succesful such as herbs, mystical and ancupuncter. Chinese medicine is profound especially, it is ancient.

So are there any major hospitals that entirely use faith-healing?

If a person's mind is so coarse and crudely developed that he has to rely on a seemingly miraculous event to awaken him from his slumber and start taking God seriously, then I can see value in that. But ideally, he should be able to quickly move on and start discerning the nature of God in everything. Otherwise, what would be the point of his leaving his slumber in the first place?

So now miracles can happen but it is because of a course mind because you already know they happen?

What people normally call miracles, I call chance, coincidence, good fortune, unusual happenings, projection, wishful thinking, etc.

When did you see a miacle David? If you are going to require me to answer your questions, asked and otherwise, quid pro quo.

There is only one miracle and that is Nature itself.

The problem is, people become very attached to these unusual events in their lives and start twisting and distorting the concept of God in order to fit them in, so as to be able to hang onto them. So while they have may started out with good intentions, they quickly and unwittingly slide into the evil of worshiping a false idol.

Your ego is playing mind ninja games on you - can you not see it?

Look David, I know there is the state of being that understands that all is transcendant and so, it is all miraculous.

So you agree, than, that an act of faith-healing is no more miraculous than a mite of dust settling on a table?

You have just clipped your wings thinking they were not needed in trying to fly there.

Or perhaps I simply eliminated the deadwood that held me back.


-

[Beingof1]

Deibert Rhijn:

You should perhaps indeed start examining your childhood once more, the habitual thoughts and beliefs which seem largely unchanged and unchallenged by you - they still require lots of magical thought to maintain. It's you who floats on a bliss that is preventing you to critically take even one good look at one of your magical tales. Because there's the risk that if one turns out to be a big error in your interpretation, the whole house of cards comes down. It's like having to admit that one core biblical text or character would have been made up - what stops one from doubting them all now?

Diebert, when I read some of your posts, I am amazed at the wisdom.

When we get on the subject of the Bible, I notice a markedly different Diebert.

And then, indeed, you might turn into a vegetable, some state of shock, so I can really understand you're trying to avoid this and rather twist and turn, lie and steal. Still you're here, always inviting a loving, compassionate scrub-down of your perceptional window, no matter if it's your unwillingness to examine your 'miracles' or your failure in examining biblical 'evidence' or the lack of it.

Diebert, you cannot do a memory wipe - it just cannot be done dude. Even amnesia sufferers are able to access memory.

If you reformat your hardrive, you will crave milk and burp alot.

[Beingof1]

David:

The first thing to understand is that He has no interest in miracles. No understanding of God is possible without this realization.

Funny, In a deep joy kinda way that I think - you making this statement is a miracle. You do have a good heart and we both know that is the key.

Should I redifine what a miracle is because I think just speaking with you is miraculous? The nonordinary does not make you clueless, it makes you much more appreciative and thankful for everything in your life that you experience.

Give thanks that we are aware, that is the true miracle.

David:
Is spirituality a matter of becoming a glorified doctor?

Being:
Yes. I suppose not caring makes a better - what?

What makes you write? What makes you think about philosophy? Why is this your passion?

David:
Because I can see beyond the realm of miracles.

I have not been able to see beyond the miraculous yet. Could you point to the part of the universe that does not contain one.

In your realm beyond miracles, what goes on? I think seeing beyond miracles is a miracle, but I do not think it is a miraculous nonordinary experience. It is actually quite common for folks not to believe in miracles as well as believe in them.

I guess you are on the side of the : "no they ain't club" in the tug of war contest.

I do not believe they are possible - I know they are. That, is the results of faith because you do eventually have your eyes opened with faith. Lord knows I had my eyes closed to the light of truth for many years. The only limits you have David, are the ones you believe in, they are real.

You said previously:

The body of God is the mind of God. God's intelligence is all there in the simplicity of cause and effect.

If you can tell us what is beyond the realm of miracles, could you tell us what a miracle is and is not?

1)If everything is ordinary, there can be no parameters
2)If everything is nonordinary, there can be no parameters.

What do you believe is real?

So are there any major hospitals that entirely use faith-healing?

I doubt in any Western nations because we are to smart to use faith in any capacity. It does take faith to believe that faith cannot work but - silly me.

To answer your question in a more reasonable manner because every hospital I have been to in western countries have a chapel and usually a chaplain on staff, that faith is integrated on many levels in hospitals but it is primarily a scientific endevour.

So the real answer is - every hospital that has ever existed used faith healing techniques because you have no choice if you practice medicine and want to be any good at it.

Being:
So now miracles can happen but it is because of a course mind because you already know they happen?

David:
What people normally call miracles, I call chance, coincidence, good fortune, unusual happenings, projection, wishful thinking, etc.

Many are wishful thinking in the nonordinary sense - many are real life experience.

Why do you have a problem with me praying for someone and them being healed? There are some who are doing the same right now much younger than I. It is difficult for you to understand that I have no vested interest here, why would I make things up?

I have no books to put on special, no website, and I enjoy anonymity to a very large degree. Why would I want to appear foolish when I know the reaction from many humans? Could it be maybe, just maybe, there is a point to believing beyond your boundaries?

Is this in the realm of beyond the miraculous transcendant of which there are no barriers that I have seen and witnessed? Is that the realm you see?

There is only one miracle and that is Nature itself.

Nature itself is indeed a miracle. The fact that I can perceive nature is the greater.

Is nature aware of you or are you aware of her?

Being:
Your ego is playing mind ninja games on you - can you not see it?

Look David, I know there is the state of being that understands that all is transcendant and so, it is all miraculous.

David:
So you agree, than, that an act of faith-healing is no more miraculous than a mite of dust settling on a table?

Yes, but I can tell the difference - that is called logic.

I would still be astonished at witnessing a healing right now, it leaves an indelible impression. It is a different perspective than a mite of dust as compared to drinking a beer. I can tell the difference, we all can.

Or perhaps I simply eliminated the deadwood that held me back.

I have said this before and I will say it again. One can be a sage and have never seen what could be called the miraculous nonordinary.

A true sage would know impossibilities as well as possiblities are self created. That is just simple logical understanding. So he would be so inclined to either talk about them or not. In neither case would he dis miracles, he would dis delusions about miracles and get to the root instead of hacking at the limbs.

[brokenhead]

If so, that emotion is frustration. Frustration that I just don't see God while everybody else does. There was a time when I even tried to believe in him.

Also, in Christianity, I was taught that God was mean enough to cause us to suffer for eternity. It has negative connotations for me.

Well, don't be frustrated, Shah. Clearly not everybody else sees God. If you don't, you are not alone.

What you were taught about god was taught to you by organized religion, either directly or indirectly. Organizations all have a built-in prime directive, which is to propagate themselves, no matter what the cost. Organized religions invented the fearful aspects of God to keep people in their thrall. This is what is known as "taking the Lord's name in vain." The Koran says, over and over, Allah is oft forgiving, most merciful.

There is no such thing thing as eternal Hell.

Historically, the notion of a fiery Hell is the remnant of early Christianity's brush with Zoroastrianism, which often employed demonstrations of pyrotechnics in its ceremonies.

Hell is simply what the created child of God experiences when he or she rejects God's love, as God is the source of love. If I have learned anything at all in my 51 years, it is that love does not come from you - it comes through you. Therefore, Hell cannot be eternal. It ends when creature existence ends, at Death. Yet if we do not reject the Lord's love, creature existence goes beyond death. This is a mighty assertion, to be sure, but think of it: By accepting God's gift of love, there is no such thing as eternal suffering; and such suffering as we do face here is not only rendered temporary, but much more bearable. And not only is it relatively more bearable, but you will find that it goes away in an absolute sense.

I always suggest to people to reject out of hand anything anyone tells them about eternal suffering. No one can possibly know that is true because no one has ever experienced it. What about those who promise eternal life? Well, regard that suspiciously as well, since they usually want a donation and a membership. Yet there is nothing stopping you from believing that eternal life is possible. It costs nothing but faith, and it never stops giving back. God never threatens anyone - he just offers his gift of love, there for the taking. It has tranformed more than one life. I know it has transformed my own.

Oooooh. Maybe I should have sent you this in a PM. It's like pricking your finger and sticking it into a pool filled with pirhanas.

[Fujaro]

You have difficulty wrapping your mind around the notion of timelessness? For that is what an uncaused Nature essentially means - that it is timeless.

Well, there are other posibilities. It may be that time is like a loop. What'wrong with that? Don't you feel complete without a first cause?

[Matt Gregory]

David is arguing in favor of this idea. Nature is timeless because time, regardless of its nature, is entirely contained within Nature, so Nature isn't defined by it in any way.

[Steven Coyle]

Wonders if the hidden void is really the timeless aspect of 'God, with this Universe as a finite component (possibly one among others...).

[brokenhead]

Wonders if the hidden void is really the timeless aspect of 'God, with this Universe as a finite component (possibly one among others...).

Well said.

[Shahrazad]

David is arguing in favor of this idea. Nature is timeless because time, regardless of its nature, is entirely contained within Nature, so Nature isn't defined by it in any way.

OK, now I get it. Thanks.

[Shahrazad]

Broken,

Well, don't be frustrated, Shah. Clearly not everybody else sees God. If you don't, you are not alone.

Many, if not most people, have this internal feeling that God exists, in some type or form. I have never had that since I was about 4.

Oooooh. Maybe I should have sent you this in a PM. It's like pricking your finger and sticking it into a pool filled with pirhanas.

Must you always be so cruel to me?

-

[Steven Coyle]

Shah(razad) is Nature?

Well, maybe so.

Not to define ya, or anything.

[David Quinn]

You have difficulty wrapping your mind around the notion of timelessness? For that is what an uncaused Nature essentially means - that it is timeless.

Well, there are other posibilities. It may be that time is like a loop. What'wrong with that? Don't you feel complete without a first cause?

Nature being uncaused means that it doesn't have a first cause. Cause and effect extends back indefinitely.

Even if Nature was somehow locked into a repeating loop, it would still be a case of cause and effect extending back indefinitely.

Wonders if the hidden void is really the timeless aspect of 'God, with this Universe as a finite component (possibly one among others...).

That doesn't make much sense if "Universe" is defined to be the totality.

-

[Beingof1]

You have difficulty wrapping your mind around the notion of timelessness? For that is what an uncaused Nature essentially means - that it is timeless.

Well, there are other posibilities. It may be that time is like a loop. What'wrong with that? Don't you feel complete without a first cause?

David:
Nature being uncaused means that it doesn't have a first cause. Cause and effect extends back indefinitely.

Infinite nature is pure potential all the way down - kinda like its turtles all the way down. The universe is almost an actual universe but remains in the domain of the potential.

That way, this concept of yours is beyond observation, experience, and logic because it is infinite regress and never arrives at where we live.

You have therefore said nothing because you have discarded logic. Nothing goes in and therefore no information comes out. If this were a self evident truth, it would be valid, but since it is in the domain of faith with no practical application nor can this concept be observed, you are confusing it with reality.

Again, you hold logic as the true test and then exclude yourself when your concepts are challenged.

Even if Nature was somehow locked into a repeating loop, it would still be a case of cause and effect extending back indefinitely.

What or who is aware of cause and effect?

Should we looking for smaller particles? The universe is not about particles that interact in a mechanical way, the universe is about mind. After all, this concept only exists within your mind.

Wonders if the hidden void is really the timeless aspect of 'God, with this Universe as a finite component (possibly one among others...).

David:
That doesn't much sense if "Universe" is defined to be the totality.

Yup - the Totality of all things is itself uncaused but contains cause and effect. If all universes are contained by the totality of all things, where did the totality come from?

Sound familiar?

[brokenhead]

Nature being uncaused means that it doesn't have a first cause. Cause and effect extends back indefinitely.

Even if Nature was somehow locked into a repeating loop, it would still be a case of cause and effect extending back indefinitely.

If one probes back into time using logic and knowledge, or anything else, some kind of horizon is encountered. It may just be a matter of scale and perspective, and I strongly suspect that it is. The horizon is further away if you stand on a tower and use a telescope, and your perspective is not the same. Yet the horizon itself persists. Beyond the horizon of your vision, Reality continues nonetheless.