A Strategy For Sages to Survive as Travelling Vagrants

[Ryan Rudolph]

With a small savings of about $20 000 dollars, I believe it can be done. You basically invest the money into a diversified portfolio of strong income trusts that yield a steady reliable monthly dividend of about 10% annually.

And use a public brokerage account that you can easily transfer dividend returns from your trading account to your bank account.

Moreover, $20 000 will yield about $2000 per year or $166/month or $5.55/day.

Moreover, If you explore the more warm climates in developed countries, and sleep in a sleeping bag, with a cheap tent, it is very feasible to survive off of $5 per day, and one is not burdened with having to beg for money. Moreover, you only pay tax on income, so the $2000 is what you pay tax on, which is far below the basic exemption amount, so I bet you would pay no tax, or little tax, and the government would never spend the money to audit you because its not the worth the costs for them to investigate.

Any thoughts?

[samadhi]

You basically invest the money into a diversified portfolio of strong income trusts that yield a steady reliable monthly dividend of about 10% annually.

Good luck getting 10%. 5% is more likely.

Moreover, $20 000 will yield about $2000 per year or $166/month or $5.55/day.

So basically, you're homeless. Sounds like fun.

so I bet you would pay no tax ...

Actually, you could earn more than that and pay no tax. You might even qualify for the earned income credit.

In any event, you are aiming quite low. If you are going to be homeless anyway, the $20 grand isn't much help. $5/day for food is nothing. You may as well dumpster dive and hit the soup kitchens. Your diet will be about the same in either case.

[Ryan Rudolph]

Sam,

Good luck getting 10%. 5% is more likely.

Canadian income trusts range from 6-14% annually, but if you’re talking about stocks, then yes, 5-6% is more realistic. But if you diversify between high yield trusts, with high yield stocks, you could average about 10% annually, especially when considering the principle of compound interest/growth of investments.

So basically, you're homeless. Sounds like fun.

A home is simply a place to defecate, urinate, eat and sleep. You can do that anywhere. Finding a route that isn’t too cold in the evenings is the only major threat one needs to be aware of. I think that if one stays close to civilization, it could be done, and one would exert much less energy than what it takes to work full time with rent, transportation, and all the rest of it. For instance: I work full time currently, and it doesn't affect me emotionally, but my body and brain become very tired everyday, and so I would prefer an easier way if I could. I think if I was surrounded by rational people, work would be much more tolerable, but consumer's desires and management's desires are usually quite unrealistic

the $20 grand isn't much help. $5/day for food is nothing. You may as well dumpster dive and hit the soup kitchens. Your diet will be about the same in either case.

You’d be surprised, you can buy bags of fruits, vegetables, and grains, which last quite awhile. Plus, humanity doesn’t need to eat meat every day, but we have become habitualzed to the pleasure. In my opinion, you could probably survive with high nutrition off of 3 serving of meat per week. Water and the use of public bathrooms are free, and as long as one stays up on the hygiene thing, most people would never know the difference.

Furthermore: My parents spend about $400 per month on food, but they waste a lot, plus they buy luxury items, deserts, junk food, too much meat, and it serves enough for at least 4 people. And they have guests over all the time, and my mother constantly cooks for community events.

So $166 Canadian a month for the diet and lifestyle of a sage should be adequate in my opinion.

[samadhi]

But if you diversify between high yield trusts, with high yield stocks, you could average about 10% annually ...

You can always try.

A home is simply a place to defecate, urinate, eat and sleep. You can do that anywhere.

So do it on the street, tell me how you like it.

Finding a route that isn't too cold in the evenings is the only major threat one needs to be aware of.

Heh, heh, I can think of a few more.

I think that if one stays close to civilization, it could be done, and one would exert much less energy than what it takes to work full time with rent, transportation, and all the rest of it.

If it were actually preferable, more people would do it. Working isn't all bad, some people even enjoy it.

I think if I was surrounded by rational people, work would be much more tolerable, but consumer's desires and management's desires are usually quite unrealistic.

Try to think about how you can contribute instead of how much you can take. It's easier that way.

You’d be surprised, you can buy bags of fruits, vegetables, and grains, which last quite awhile. Plus, humanity doesn’t need to eat meat every day, but we have become habitualzed to the pleasure. In my opinion, you could probably survive with high nutrition off of 3 serving of meat per week. Water and the use of public bathrooms are free, and as long as one stays up on the hygiene thing, most people would never know the difference.

You have to try it before you can say how easy it is. Most people don't like it. Maybe you would be an exception.

So $166 Canadian a month for the diet and lifestyle of a sage should be adequate in my opinion.

I suggest you give it a go before talking about how easy it would be. Only when you have some experience will your words carry any weight. And the "lifestyle of a sage" has changed a bit in 2500 years in case you haven't noticed. Most of them do pretty well now. Besides, there is no implied vow of poverty simply because one is enlightened. Your attachment to renunciation is showing.

[maestro]

A Sage is a wise person, and Sam here is really coming across as one. Someone trying Ryan's foolhardy scheme would hardly qualify as a sage in the first place.

[Carl G]

God, I just came into the library to use the internet and the librarian is saying I'm too noisy with the newspaper stuffed inside my shirt for warmth, and now I find this thread. As sure as A equals A, my friends, it does this old body good to finally be recognized for the wisdom I embody. Now if I can only find a half smoked butt my evening will be complete. May the Universe cause this to happen.

[Iolaus]

So $166 Canadian a month for the diet and lifestyle of a sage should be adequate in my opinion.

Plus, then you'd know you were a real sage.

But I really think you'd need to leave Canada.

[Alex Jacob]

Twenty grand is a bit little for N America or Europe (and many other places). But here is another strategy: take that 20 grand and get set up in another country, say Central America. Find a relatively safe place (not so easy) and get some fertile land. Most of the minor and major cities have lovely rural area 1-4 hours travel time away. Build an adobe house with a zinc roof (no building codes). Live simply even without electricity. If you had $150-200 of income a month (somehow) and your own little place to live, you could pull that off for a good many years. Another alternative is to migrate up north to work, and then go back down south. There are many types of work that can be done seasonally. I knew a guy who did moving with a small truck (or a rental truck) for 6 months out of the year and the rest of the time he lived up in the mountains with the Tarahumara Indians (he was a runner). Years ago, when traveling through Oaxaca and trying to get to a pueblo known for its mushrooms, me and an Austrian guy I was traveling with somehow took a wrong turn and ended up in some terribly remote village in the Sierra Mazateca. The Austrian guy left after a few days but I stayed on for a few months. I bought a little adobe house for $50.00, but of course when I left I knew I would never be coming back.

You could also find a place in rural SE Asia where the people live on pennies a day, if you could put up with the poverty, no easy feat.

When I lived in the Bay Area of California, there were people who poured concrete hulls for just a few thousand dollars, used salvaged lumber to cover them, slowly built them out and improved them (with used stuff picked up at flea markets and garage sales) and then floated them out in the bay at permanent anchor in eye shot of some of the most expensive real estate in the US.

You had to paddle back and forth with the tides, of course, and had to want to live a sort of sea life, but they did it with very little money. And they had lots of free time to read and think, lots of Conrad and Melville of course, and they really had their sea-knots down. Maritime law protects their right to moor out in the bay (not the open SF bay, but an inner bay off the SF bay). With a skiff with an outboard motor you had a lifestyle that enabled yo to go all over the place, to scavenge, to fish, and you were really on your own since middle class and yuppie culture was definitely not even aware of that lifestyle.

Where I grew up on the California coast (Muir Beach) there were old Portuguese men who'd come down with a small skiff and row out to fishing spots that they'd known about all their lives (these were Portuguese from the Azores). They'd fish for the morning and come back with 30 lb sea bass, 5' sea eels, all kinds of things.

In most cities in the US there are landlocked parcels of land. They have owners on all sides and no ingress. Tough luck if this happens to you. But you can buy those parcels for very little money, and get a permit to build a farmer's shed, and then you just go ahead and live in it. Or you move a trailer onto it and plant evergreens around it to block view. If you do it discreetly no one would ever care. You could make yourself useful by watching out for thieves and doing other services for people in the area. You wouldn't be able to get a vehicle to the property but you could get there by foot (I am thinking of one I know of that has warehouse properties all around it). If you have a place to live that is safe and quiet (with water) you've taken care of 3/4ths of the battle. Then, seasonal employment, scavenging and opportunism can get you what else you need.

I know no one here hardly cares, because no one here seems to appreciate literature (*sigh*) but there is a great author who wrote in the 50s and 60s about all the rural people and lifestyles around NYC: Joseph Mitchell In his book The Bottom of the Harbor, he writes about a whole life-style that is on its way out and he roams in the far-flung areas noting the traces of life that used to be, meeting people, seeking their histories.

Now I am only doing this because, in some perverse way, I love y'all, but here is a sample from a chapter called The Rivermen. (I just had a deja-vu---have I posted this before?!?)(Time goes in circles).

[Ryan Rudolph]

Sam,

If it were actually preferable, more people would do it. Working isn't all bad, some people even enjoy it.

Most people don't have the emotional intelligence to desire this sort of thing. And You use the word “enjoy” as if people choose to do what they do. A drug addict doesn’t choose to enjoy cocaine, no more than a labourer enjoys working massive amounts of overtime. Both are conditioned to a certain habit, and they become uncomfortable when they are removed from that habit. Unlike you, I don’t believe in free will, as I believe all actions/thoughts/emotions are caused, and as free will is an illusion.

Try to think about how you can contribute instead of how much you can take.

My idea is not based on taking without giving. If you understood anything about economics, you'd understand that Investments are based on giving your money to another entity, and that entity rewards over the long-term for contributing in what they are doing. Investments are always based on give and take. For instance: companies like Google and Intel are investing in the development of better solar energy, and they will expect a return from their investment.

Besides, there is no implied vow of poverty simply because one is enlightened.

It isn’t a vow of poverty, and I don’t have a problem with working a job, but my issue is serving an irrational society with irrational people who believe in things like free will, the happiness of marriage, pleasing their wives constantly and so on. The present civilization has no respect for the plight of labor, (they have no compassion) and so they basically demand unrealistic goals from people to satisfy their own unrealistic goals.

If I was working in an enlightened society, the workday would be half as long (4 hours) because people’s desires would be less frequent. Everything would move slower. People wouldn’t be in such a rush. Moreover, I don’t have a problem with the basic principles of economics, and serving others, but my problem is with an emotional society that values romantic relationships, large houses, luxurious toys, and so on. The insatiable nature of most humans is what turns the present workforce into more of an hell that it has to be.

Maestro,

A Sage is a wise person, and Sam here is really coming across as one. Someone trying Ryan's foolhardy scheme would hardly qualify as a sage in the first place.

Have you seen Sam in the Crucible? When speaking with Cory and David, he was unable to see that Free will is an illusion. Sam is not wise in my opinion, and many of the veteran thinkers here would agree. And as far as my foolhardy scheme is concerned, I actually believe is it quite feasible. Canadian income trusts were set up to supplement the income of retired people, as there are thousands of seniors who currently pay many of their monthly bills from their monthly dividend payments. A scheme implies a devious manipulation, but this strategy seems like the most honest way to achieve the freedom of traveling for many years without the burden of having to worry about income through begging for food, and so on.

Alex,

and get set up in another country, say Central America. Find a relatively safe place (not so easy) and get some fertile land. Most of the minor and major cities have lovely rural area 1-4 hours travel time away. Build an adobe house with a zinc roof (no building codes).

I’m not all that interested in becoming totally dependent on using agricultural techniques within nature to survive. I’d basically like to experiment in mastering the art of navigating through new cities, and finding the best hangouts for the wandering traveler. IE: camping grounds, small privately owned internet cafes, used bookstores, public malls, super-chain grocery shores with affordable food. Moreover, You would need to be quite resourceful to master the ability of totally understanding the layout of each new city - by understanding what areas to stay away from, what areas aid in your survival, and what areas are desirable to visit merely for aesthetic and intellectual value. And the constant new environments would force you out of any negative habits that you have developed from staying in one place for too long.

I wouldn’t do it for the rest of my life, just maybe 5-10 years, and travel through most of the major continents, visiting major urban areas.

[samadhi]

Ryan,

sam: If it were actually preferable, more people would do it. Working isn't all bad, some people even enjoy it.

Ryan: Most people don't have the emotional intelligence to desire this sort of thing.

It's not a matter of intelligence, it's a matter of desire. No, most people have no desire to be homeless.

And you use the word "enjoy" as if people choose to do what they do. A drug addict doesn’t choose to enjoy cocaine, no more than a labourer enjoys working massive amounts of overtime. Both are conditioned to a certain habit, and they become uncomfortable when they are removed from that habit. Unlike you, I don’t believe in free will, as I believe all actions, thoughts and emotions are all caused, and therefore free will is a myth.

Do you really want to make this about free will? We had that argument and you have shown yourself clueless on it. In any event, go and be homeless if that's what you're "caused" to do. Just don't pretend it's easy and fun and everyone should try it because Ryan says so even though his experience with homelessness is zero.

sam: Try to think about how you can contribute instead of how much you can take.

Ryan: My idea is not based on taking without giving. If you understood anything about economics, you'd understand that investments are based on giving your money to another entity, and that entity rewards over the long-term for contributing in what they are doing. Investments are always based on give and take. For instance: companies like Google and Intel are investing in the development of better solar energy, and they will expect a return from their investment.

I wasn't talking about your investments but your relationship with your co-workers. Can you follow a discussion or do I need to hold your hand?

sam: Besides, there is no implied vow of poverty simply because one is enlightened.

It isn’t a vow of poverty, and I don’t have a problem with working a job, but my issue is serving an irrational society with irrational people who believe in things like free will, the happiness of marriage, pleasing their wives constantly and so on. The present civilization has no respect for the plight of labor, (they have no compassion) and so they basically demand unrealistic goals from people to satisfy their own unrealistic goals.

You said you can live on $5.55 a day and you want to pretend it isn't about poverty? Puhleeeeeze. If you don't like society, great, go do your own thing. My point was that you have no experience and thus no basis for your pious assertions on how easy it would be.

If I was working in an enlightened society, the workday would be half as long (4 hours) because people’s desires would be less frequent. Everything would move slower. People wouldn’t be in such a rush. Moreover, I don’t have a problem with the basic principles of economics, but my problem is with an emotional society that values romantic relationships, large houses, luxurious toys, and so on. The insatiable nature of most humans is what turns the present workforce into more of an hell that it has to be.

Notice how you like to justify your actions by judging others. As long as you judge others, you allow them to define who you are.

Go do your own thing if you don't like it here. Just don't pretend being homeless is a walk in the park. It isn't.

maestro: A Sage is a wise person, and Sam here is really coming across as one. Someone trying Ryan's foolhardy scheme would hardly qualify as a sage in the first place.

Ryan: Have you seen Sam in the Crucible? When speaking with Cory and David, he was unable to see that Free will is an illusion.

You're an idiot, aren't you? I never argued in favor of free will, only how Cory and David never understood their own argument. You really can't follow a discussion, can you?

[Ryan Rudolph]

Sam,

It's not a matter of intelligence, it's a matter of desire. No, most people have no desire to be homeless.

And most people also desire to commit themselves to a life of overtime and toil to pay for an oversized home and luxuries that they don’t need.

Just don't pretend it's easy and fun and everyone should try it because Ryan says so even though his experience with homelessness is zero.

It didn’t say it was easy or fun, but neither is trying to survive by paying for a contemporary modern home. That road is very hellish as well. Choose your evil.

If you don't like society, great, go do your own thing. My point was that you have no experience and thus no basis for your pious assertions on how easy it would be.

Not easy, every road is difficult, and involves its degree of discomfort. I’m just not a huge fan of discomfort caused by an irrational mad society. If my co-workers were enlightened, or society in general, then it would be a different story.

Notice how you like to justify your actions by judging others. As long as you judge others, you allow them to define who you are.

Judging others is judging yourself, I am you, and other people. My discontent with you is a discontent with myself. Judgment of oneself and others is the only way to justify anything.

You're an idiot, aren't you? I never argued in favor of free will, only how Cory and David never understood their own argument.

David and Cory seemed quite reasonable to me, but I believe you were the one that missed the point totally. the argument simply states that people to not decide what their thoughts will be, all thoughts are caused.

[samadhi]

Ryan,

sam: It's not a matter of intelligence, it's a matter of desire. No, most people have no desire to be homeless.

Ryan: And most people also desire to commit themselves to a life of overtime and toil to pay for an oversized home and luxuries that they don’t need.

What's it to you what people desire? If you want to be homeless, go ahead. But don't imply others have a problem because they don't.

sam: Just don't pretend it's easy and fun and everyone should try it because Ryan says so even though his experience with homelessness is zero.

Ryan: It didn’t say it was easy or fun, but neither is trying to survive by paying for a contemporary modern home.

Ah, okay, not easy, not fun but better than living in a house, earning a living, eating what you want and sleeping under a roof. Okay ...

sam: If you don't like society, great, go do your own thing. My point was that you have no experience and thus no basis for your pious assertions on how easy it would be.

Ryan: Not easy, every road is difficult, and involves its degree of discomfort. I’m just not a huge fan of discomfort caused by an irrational mad society. If my co-workers were enlightened, or society in general, then it would be a different story.

Try the discomfort of homelessness before advocating it, okay. And don't blame others because you prefer homelessness.

sam: Notice how you like to justify your actions by judging others. As long as you judge others, you allow them to define who you are.

Ryan: Judging others is judging yourself, I am you, and other people. My discontent with you is a discontent with myself. Judgment of oneself and others is the only way to justify anything.

If judging others is judging yourself, then why not just talk about yourself? Why pretend others have a problem when it is YOUR problem you are talking about?

sam: You're an idiot, aren't you? I never argued in favor of free will, only how Cory and David never understood their own argument.

Ryan: David and Cory seemed quite reasonable to me, but I believe you were the one that missed the point totally. the argument simply states that people to not decide what their thoughts will be, all thoughts are caused.

I never argued in favor of free will, go back and read what I wrote. I discussed the IMPLICATIONS of a belief in free will versus the IMPLICATIONS of a belief in causation. Was that too subtle for you?

And do you admit that being wise has zero to do with living in poverty?

[Tomas]

.


NOTE: Having read this entire thread...


-The Cheapskate-
Ryan Rudolph - With a small savings of about $20,000 dollars, I believe it can be done.

-tomas-
Seriously, Ryan. Best you place the $$$ in Mikiel's Trust, out in Oregon way. He seems to have an intentional community up and running quite smoothly. He would have a trade (masonry) that may be to your liking and self-paying as you go ... people are always looking to upgrade their landscaping etc.




-The Cheapskate-
You basically invest the money into a diversified portfolio of strong income trusts that yield a steady reliable monthly dividend of about 10% annually.

-tomas-
You've got your head a bit above the clouds here, Ryan. You have your VISA debit card in your pocket, you'll have a lot of bank fees everywhere you use your card. Banks want that sweaty wad of money everywhere you go.




-The Cheapskate-
And use a public brokerage account that you can easily transfer dividend returns from your trading account to your bank account.

-tomas-
If it sounds too easy, it probably is :-(




-The Cheapskate-
Moreover, $20,000 will yield about $2000 per year or $166/month or $5.55/day.

-tomas-
Best you find an extra 30 hour a week job to make that $40-50,000 and you are STILL scratching the surface...




-The Cheapskate-
Moreover, If you explore the more warm climates in developed countries, and sleep in a sleeping bag, with a cheap tent, it is very feasible to survive off of $5 per day, and one is not burdened with having to beg for money.

-tomas-
You best be fluent in all the native tongues lest you not be strung up for being some sort of city-limit pervert.




-The Cheapskate-
Moreover, you only pay tax on income, so the $2000 is what you pay tax on, which is far below the basic exemption amount, so I bet you would pay no tax, or little tax, and the government would never spend the money to audit you because its not the worth the costs for them to investigate.

-tomas-
The countries (goverments) where you will be sleeping are gonna watch you extra close - they want more than $5 Euros a day to put up with Freddie The Freeloaders like you.




-The Cheapskate-
Any thoughts?

Yeah, talk to Mikiel. He sounds like your best bet. Learn a trade you can take with you wherever you travel.


.

[tek0]

Plenty of intentional communities out there that are doing well enough without any wierd mantras or kool-aid fueled bon-fire parties.

I had my eyeball on this one just to check on it's progress and so far they seem to be pretty grounded and doing well.

As far as finances go I am clueless but I can imagine with some education, sweat, and determination you could get well over your 20k survival funding mark.

Either way if my old ass comes into even a few hundred grand I am retiring to India or some such place.


Hanging about doing yoga and tending to a garden sounds just as well as joining most any intentional community.



Good luck with your search for workable ideas


http://www.echowood.org/




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvKbGQRr ... re=related

[Ryan Rudolph]

What's it to you what people desire? If you want to be homeless, go ahead. But don't imply others have a problem because they don't.

Because other people’s desires create the world that we live in. And so the wiser and more minimal people’s desires, the less hellish the society will be. This is simple reasoning, but I don’t think you get it. And I don’t think you will ever be capable of understanding some of these relationships. All you seem capable of is these defense mechanisms, where you don’t want to face the irrationality of modern life because you seem to identify with it so strongly. And I’m not advocating that everyone become homeless for their entire lives, what I’m suggesting is a strategy for individuals who would rather travel for part of their lives, rather than strengthening many of the negative habits that occur when one stays in one dwelling for years, and also loosen the conditioning that occurs when one works a modern job, and becomes habitualized to their daily toil.

Moreover, if one does work a full time job, one should be constantly aware that over time, one might begin to prefer a hellish job out of mere conditioning, and prefer that job because one prefers all the behaviors that that job allows them to habitually enjoy afterwards, such as sex, pleasing their wife, technological toys, emotional drama, junk food, exciting entertainment, and all the rest of it. Falling into such a quagmire is an example of the danger of adapting to an irrational society, and allowing the emotions to enslave you to an undesirable existence. And most people aren't aware that they are stuck in an undesirable existence because their intelligence is so low that their emotions win every time, rather than reason and truth.

Btw Sam, why do you come to GF anyway? The values here seem to totally conflict with your own perspective, I feel like I'm wasting my time engaging with you because you're not at all interested in the foundational philosophy of enlightenment....

[samadhi]

Ryan,

sam: What's it to you what people desire? If you want to be homeless, go ahead. But don't imply others have a problem because they don't.

Ryan: Because other people’s desires create the world that we live in. And so the wiser and more minimal people’s desires, the less hellish the society will be.

The point is you aren't trying to help anyone, you simply want to judge them and run the other way.

This is simple reasoning, but I don’t think you get it.

No, you don't get it because you don't recognize your own judgments of others which is what I am pointing out to you.

And I don’t think you will ever be capable of understanding some of these relationships. All you seem capable of is these defense mechanisms, where you don’t want to face the irrationality of modern life because you seem to identify with it so strongly.

I know very well what is going on in the world. The tact you seem to take is "f*** them, I'm doing my own thing." Let's see how far that takes you.

And I'm not advocating that everyone become homeless for their entire lives, what I’m suggesting is a strategy for individuals who would rather travel for part of their lives, rather than strengthening many of the negative habits that occur when one stays in one dwelling for years, and also loosen the conditioning that occurs when one works a modern job, and becomes habitualized to their daily toil.

Then go ahead and do it instead of mouthing off about it. Why do you want to lecture us about what you yourself know precisely nothing? Get some experience and then maybe we'll listen.

Moreover, if one does work a full time job, one should be constantly aware that over time, one might begin to prefer a hellish job out of mere conditioning, and prefer that job because one prefers all the behaviors that that job allows them to habitually enjoy afterwards, such as sex, pleasing their wife, technological toys, emotional drama, junk food, exciting entertainment, and all the rest of it. Falling into such a quagmire is an example of the danger of adapting to an irrational society, and allowing the emotions to enslave you to an undesirable existence. And most people aren't aware that they are stuck in an undesirable existence because their intelligence is so low that their emotions win every time, rather than reason and truth.

Here you are judging everyone again. Do you really think condescencion and arrogance is what helping others is about? You know zero about others but feel perfectly fine judging the hell out of them. You get to feel oh so superior. And best of all, you don't have to bother lifting a finger to help anyone, just fart out another putrid opinion and let them bask in its fragrance. People sniffing your ass is all you really seem to care about.

Btw Sam, why do you come to GF anyway? The values here seem to totally conflict with your own perspective, I feel like I'm wasting my time engaging with you because you're not at all interested in the foundational philosophy of enlightenment ...

I enjoy it, that's why. As for enlightenment, your prancing prattle and pious pronouncements on the subject reflect an ego that likes its enlightenment sugar-coated with ignorance and shot through with hypocrisy.

[brokenhead]

Because other people’s desires create the world that we live in. And so the wiser and more minimal people’s desires, the less hellish the society will be.

Do you reaaly think of the world we live in as hellish, Ryan?

[Ryan Rudolph]

Sam,

Here you are judging everyone again. Do you really think condescencion and arrogance is what helping others is about?

Why do you believe judging others is somehow bad? The judgment of behavior is what leads to wisdom, and a deserved confidence that goes with that. Some interpret confidence as arrogance because most people are so wishy washy, inconsistent and constantly trying to protect their own feelings, and the feelings of others. Becoming fully masculine requires that you develop a confidence of judgment in being able to access behavior according to the concept of inferiority and superiority.

The tact you seem to take is "f*** them, I'm doing my own thing." Let's see how far that takes you.

No, my attitude is, what are the different possibilities for survival that don’t entail allowing the collective herd to mold you into a overtime labor bot, and the thread was more aimed at asking others about what they thought of the idea as far as the economic fundamentals are concerned. Basically, I threw the idea out there to see if there is anyone out there who studies the stock market, economics, and investing in the same manner as I do, and to see what ideas they might bring to the table.

You know zero about others but feel perfectly fine judging the hell out of them. You get to feel oh so superior. And best of all, you don't have to bother lifting a finger to help anyone, just fart out another putrid opinion and let them bask in its fragrance. People sniffing your ass is all you really seem to care about.

I think it is possible to judge people, and not gain any emotional gratification out of it, eventually it just becomes a reflex. You’re problem is that you believe you understand the emotions behind what I say, but I’m suggesting that when I judge people, there is absolutely no emotion here. Nothing. I’m not enjoying this egotistically in the manner that you imagine.

[Ryan Rudolph]

Brokenhead,

Do you reaaly think of the world we live in as hellish, Ryan?

You're a professor right? Well, first of all. Academia charges students crazy amounts for tuition, burdening them to decades of debt, and many times working jobs they hate to pay for the large salaries of professors, so I don’t have much respect for the entire structure of the academic world. Students are all persevering through the irrationality of university on the emotions of outlandish fantasies and dreams that will never happen. The entire academic world ends up exploiting the vast majority of students. Only a small minority of students benefit at the hands of the majority. And perhaps the majority are lower in intelligence, but they don’t deserve to be exploited by the academic structure. University should be designed for 10% of the population, and the ones that cannot meet the minimum requirements should not be allowed to be exploited. Young people have no concept how long it takes to pay off $40,000, so yes I would call that lack of compassion for the future of our youth as hellish…

That doesn't mean that I'm affected emotionally by it, I'm just pointing out that the unconscious nature of society screws over a huge percentage of our youth, and they start life behind the eight ball from the beginning.

Moreover, the pillars of civilization are build upon very nasty jobs - Construction, nursing, automobile repair, highway construction, bridge construction, assembly line manufacturing, line cooks, over night security, police force, fire force, military, commercialized agriculture, auto salvage yards, accountants, programmers, and so on. The plight of humanity is quite obvious in my opinion…Man is damned to toil… and when combined with out of control emotional desires, it exaggerates the plight worse than it needs to be. And things have gotten quite a bit better compared to 100 years ago, but what is necessary to sustain civilization is still quite hellish in my opinion.

[samadhi]

Ryan,

sam: Here you are judging everyone again. Do you really think condescencion and arrogance is what helping others is about?

Ryan: Why do you believe judging others is somehow bad?

Moral judgments are about superiority. The ego loves them and uses them to separate itself from and elevate itself over others.

The judgment of behavior is what leads to wisdom, and a deserved confidence that goes with that.

Wisdom doesn't require moral judgment of others. Confidence comes from knowing oneself, cowardice comes from denigrating others.

Some interpret confidence as arrogance because most people are so wishy washy, inconsistent and constantly trying to protect their own feelings, and the feelings of others. Becoming fully masculine requires that you develop a confidence of judgment in being able to access behavior according to the concept of inferiority and superiority.

Of course you will justify your judgments. Anyone who does what you do justifies it as "helping others" or "speaking truth." No doubt you are completely unconscious to your arrogance. If you were conscious to it, you wouldn't do it.

sam: The tact you seem to take is "f*** them, I'm doing my own thing." Let's see how far that takes you.

Ryan: No, my attitude is, what are the different possibilities for survival that don’t entail allowing the collective herd to mold you into a overtime labor bot, and the thread was more aimed at asking others about what they thought of the idea as far as the economic fundamentals are concerned. Basically, I threw the idea out there to see if there is anyone out there who studies the stock market, economics, and investing in the same manner as I do, and to see what ideas they might bring to the table.

Well, I'm interested in investing and the stock market but that isn't what I got from your post. You seemed to be promoting poverty as a preferred way of life because you believe that is how sages should live. You still haven't acknowledged that poverty has nothing to do with wisdom.

sam: You know zero about others but feel perfectly fine judging the hell out of them. You get to feel oh so superior. And best of all, you don't have to bother lifting a finger to help anyone, just fart out another putrid opinion and let them bask in its fragrance. People sniffing your ass is all you really seem to care about.

Ryan: I think it is possible to judge people, and not gain any emotional gratification out of it, eventually it just becomes a reflex.

Of course it's a unconscious reflex, that's why I point it out, and the gratification is sublimated. After all, open bragging isn't the image you want to cultivate. So you try to go subtle with the arrogance and judgment but its very obvious to anyone with eyes. You can't see it because you're drenched in it, like a fish in water.

You're problem is that you believe you understand the emotions behind what I say, but I’m suggesting that when I judge people, there is absolutely no emotion here. Nothing. I’m not enjoying this egotistically in the manner that you imagine.

Your denial is hardly to the point. Anyone practicing arrogance and judgment to the degree you do must deny it to preserve their self-image. It's simply how you think and react. Until you become conscious of it, nothing will change.

[Carl G]

You’d be surprised, you can buy bags of fruits, vegetables, and grains, which last quite awhile.

The grains especially last quite a while since the sage lacks a way to cook them. And in those warm climes the bags of fruit and veggies do last for days, but as emergency weapons rather than comestibles.

Furthermore: My parents spend about $400 per month on food,

Whoa, not bad, I spend this amount just me. They must at least be initiates!

but they waste a lot, plus they buy luxury items, deserts, junk food, too much meat, and it serves enough for at least 4 people. And they have guests over all the time, and my mother constantly cooks for community events.

Wow, all that on $400 a month. That's only $6.66 per parent per day, not much more than the 5.55 for a sage, and even better considering the sage doesn't waste a lot, doesn't constantly cook for community events, and doesn't have guests over since he has no "over" to invite guests to. Now I know they are at least semi-enlightened.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

The ego loves them and uses them to separate itself from and elevate itself over others.

Ego is what ego does and certainly a healthy ego as figurative artifact of identifying and distinguishing, cannot help but to separate, judge morally and believe to excel, thrusting towards power - which means elevation basically.

Why so distrusting of a healthy ego, not recognizing its potential, its necessity for creating the courage, character and direction needed to deal with truth? Truth which brings consciousness. Consciousness which could be said to bring the only true liberation.

[Ryan Rudolph]

Sam.

Wisdom doesn't require moral judgment of others. Confidence comes from knowing oneself, cowardice comes from denigrating others.

Okay, so it is acceptable to judge yourself? but not others? hmm, okay..., So let me get this straight, it is okay for me to become wise through being critical of myself, but as soon as I’m critical of someone else, then I’m an arrogant egoist? Is that how it goes? So every spiritual seeker must be his own judge and totally refrain from judging others?

That doesn’t make any sense. You know what I think happened to you Sam: too many late-night pajama party bible-reading sessions…

You see, where you and I fundamentally disagree is that you believe that judging yourself and judging others are too totally different activities, and one is desirable, while the other is not, while I maintain that judging yourself and judging others is the SAME activity, and it leads to the SAME outcome, namely WISDOM.

Carl,

The grains especially last quite a while since the sage lacks a way to cook them. And in those warm climes the bags of fruit and veggies do last for days, but as emergency weapons rather than comestibles.

All you need for oaks is hot water. And then when it comes to easily storable fruits, you avoid the soft-skinned ones. Most types of apples are fairly long lasting. And then you could store bags of almonds, walnuts, and raisins for quite awhile. You’d be surprised how much variety you have with long-lasting instantly edible foods. I think if you were resourceful, and did your homework, you could travel for quite awhile with a small amount of steady income, and be okay…

I remember watching a documentary that followed around a homeless guy, and he had gotten so used to sleeping on hard surfaces that he found beds incredibly uncomfortable - it just goes to show you how relative certain aspects of living are, and how the idea of the 'Homeless' man has been stigmatized as being totally deplorable. However, I'm not saying it is an easy road by any means, but neither is working full time in an irrational society. It might be an interesting experiment to try for awhile.

[Tomas]

You’d be surprised, you can buy bags of fruits, vegetables, and grains, which last quite awhile.

The grains especially last quite a while since the sage lacks a way to cook them. And in those warm climes the bags of fruit and veggies do last for days, but as emergency weapons rather than comestibles.

Furthermore: My parents spend about $400 per month on food,

Whoa, not bad, I spend this amount just me. They must at least be initiates!

but they waste a lot, plus they buy luxury items, deserts, junk food, too much meat, and it serves enough for at least 4 people. And they have guests over all the time, and my mother constantly cooks for community events.

Wow, all that on $400 a month. That's only $6.66 per parent per day, not much more than the 5.55 for a sage, and even better considering the sage doesn't waste a lot, doesn't constantly cook for community events, and doesn't have guests over since he has no "over" to invite guests to. Now I know they are at least semi-enlightened.

WE HAVE A WINNER BY UNANIMOUS DECISION

The three judges (QRS) call it at the first night of camping homeless.

It is a first night-out Knock Out in the first week...

THE WINNER:


Carrrr...los..... San-ta-naaaaaa!!!



.

[Iolaus]

Brokenhead said,

Do you really think of the world we live in as hellish, Ryan?

I do. It's both heaven and hell. It's hell because their are unseen entities with evil intent who confuse the minds of mankind deliberately, and foment war and retard progress. It's hell because we are like prisoners here, prisoners with total amnesia, who cannot figure out our situation in almost any way. It's hell because greed is the prime directive, and love of power and manipulation, and lies to accomplish all that, and lies for the pleasure of lying. It's hell because people don't see this, don't see the situation as it is right before their eyes and are lost in endless myriads of wrong ideas. People can't thin for themselves, and have no idea who to trust, and are gullible without letup. A 13-year old boy gets tied to a tree for 18 hours in the heat, by his religious parents, who are taken aback at his demise.

Ryan says,

I feel like I'm wasting my time engaging with you because you're not at all interested in the foundational philosophy of enlightenment ...

Of course, you and Sam have very different ideas as to what enlightenment might be about.

Basically, I threw the idea out there to see if there is anyone out there who studies the stock market, economics, and investing in the same manner as I do,

I find this quite odd, incongruous.