Truth v Belief

MickyL · Post by **MickyL** » Mon May 19, 2008 8:30 am

To have hope one needs be-lie-f ... To have be-lie-f there needs to be doubt...To have no doubt of the truth there is no need for hope or be-lie-f?

Dave Toast · Post by **Dave Toast** » Mon May 19, 2008 9:47 am

Can you elaborate Micky, re. truth?

MickyL · Post by **MickyL** » Mon May 19, 2008 9:54 am

I will, as time goes bye, but for now, let's ponder the quote and see what develops in the mind's eye.

Dave Toast · Post by **Dave Toast** » Mon May 19, 2008 9:59 am

It's pretty straightforward mate.

Seems to me that it it all hinges on what you mean by truth. Would that be a good starting point?

MickyL · Post by **MickyL** » Mon May 19, 2008 10:10 am

David, I guess the best starting point is to question our own beliefs to find out how true they are and what was their source. To give you a clue ask yourself if the results of your actions are really what you what to achive and how joyful do they make you feel?

Dave Toast · Post by **Dave Toast** » Mon May 19, 2008 10:15 am

What if, hypothetically, my only belief is in truth?

MickyL · Post by **MickyL** » Mon May 19, 2008 10:38 am

Since truth requires no belief it will only be hypothetical and thus, cannot be lived. If we have to use the word be-lie-f we will not know if it is a lie or truth. That is why every be"lie"f system has a "lie" in the middle of it

Dan Rowden · Post by **Dan Rowden** » Mon May 19, 2008 10:46 am

It's reasonable enough to observe that a belief is necessarily distinguishable from the truth (given that truth does not require belief as stated), but your apparent view that there's truth value in how actions "feel" is prima facie insane. How do you justify an idea like that?

Dave Toast · Post by **Dave Toast** » Mon May 19, 2008 10:57 am

MickyL wrote:Since truth requires no belief it will only be hypothetical and thus, cannot be lived. If we have to use the word be-lie-f we will not know if it is a lie or truth. That is why every be"lie"f system has a "lie" in the middle of it

You misunderstand. I referred to a belief in truth - the efficacy of truth.

MickyL · Post by **MickyL** » Mon May 19, 2008 10:57 am

Dan, I can only justify it to you by being insane.
I will let you all into a little secret ...the truth cannot be located in the human intellect and as Alfie once said "Not a lot of People know that"

Dave Toast · Post by **Dave Toast** » Mon May 19, 2008 10:58 am

See this is why I ask what you mean by truth.

What do you mean by truth?

MickyL · Post by **MickyL** » Mon May 19, 2008 11:02 am

No David, I did not misunderstand your question. Perhaps you did not get the gist of my answer. If you live the truth belief has no place because belief requires doubt.

MickyL · Post by **MickyL** » Mon May 19, 2008 11:05 am

<<What do you mean by truth?>>

I will be posting more essays and then you can make up your mind about the choice that will filter into your mind.

Dave Toast · Post by **Dave Toast** » Mon May 19, 2008 11:06 am

Seems to me that in order to move from not living the truth towards living the truth, a value system that facilitates such is necessary. Would that value system not require belief and faith in the efficacy of truth, at least at first?

Dave Toast · Post by **Dave Toast** » Mon May 19, 2008 11:07 am

MickyL wrote:<<What do you mean by truth?>>

I will be posting more essays and then you can make up your mind about the choice that will filter into your mind.

Will any of these essays explicitly and clearly state what you think truth is Micky?

Dan Rowden · Post by **Dan Rowden** » Mon May 19, 2008 11:10 am

Micheal,

Please strive to ensure that the posted essays speak to the question posed. As Trevor pointed out to you, this is a discussion board. If you just dump random essays here you'll be regarded as a spammer.

Just giving you a heads up on that.

MickyL · Post by **MickyL** » Mon May 19, 2008 11:39 am

Dan, every essay I write is total free and I give it to humanity with an open heart for anyone to use as they may. I require nothing from my writing and never advertise or use PR to sell books... My intent is to allow people to have choices over and above what the media and academia want to shove into our brains

Dan Rowden · Post by **Dan Rowden** » Mon May 19, 2008 11:51 am

Well, I can certainly relate to those sentiments. People desperately need such information. I'm just saying keep it relevant to the discussion at hand.

MickyL · Post by **MickyL** » Mon May 19, 2008 11:59 am

<<keep it relevant to the discussion at hand.>>

Ah! there by lies the cut. What is relevant to one person will seem obscure to another and you can be assured more people will intellectualy disaprove of my posts that agree with them. There are very few forums that can tollerate truth.

Dan Rowden · Post by **Dan Rowden** » Mon May 19, 2008 12:06 pm

Relevance is not really a subjective thing. It follows simple rules of logic. If a person finds relevance in non sequiturs, they are irrational by default. As for Truth - this board is specifically dedicated to it so nothing you say will disturb our sensibilities - though it might attract accusations of "nonsense". But, being a mere label, that shouldn't concern you.

Dan Rowden · Post by **Dan Rowden** » Mon May 19, 2008 12:50 pm

Dave,

Whilst I doubt any substantive response to your questions will be forthcoming from Micheal, you may find this interesting - as a means to get into his head:

Proof (Beyond Belief) in the Existence of God - Michael Levy

No matter what any person believes, the image of some sort of God will come into their mind. Even if they do not believe in that image, they will still hold an image of God in their minds, so that they can reject it...Therefore; God has to exist in the mind of the most ardent non-believer. Since a belief is only a concept or a perception and a non-belief is the opposite of another person perception, both concepts can never possess sufficient validity or proof in the existence or non-existence of God. A belief needs some doubt of the truth, for if there is truth, there is no need of belief. Therefore: A belief in God cannot possess too much validity or proof. But, a thought of God exists in everybody's Mind. And a thought is beyond any belief or non-belief. The image of God that the non-believer wants to dismiss, still stays in his/her mind and therefore must exist in that persons life. For something not to exist, it cannot be experienced in a thought. This is proof beyond any Doubt...That God exists in every persons mind.

Long way round, I guess, of saying that the concept of God must exist for people to have a concept of God. Pretty convincing, I must say ;)

Peter L · Post by **Peter L** » Mon May 19, 2008 5:03 pm

What does a belief in truth mean? A Truth is true whether one believes in it or not. A belief (in the way people use it) implies room for doubt. The very act of believing in truth undermines that which a truth stands for...

We (is also a belief) have beliefs in appearances (Things are appearances - true). For instance, I believe my mother is my birth mother, human, conscious, etc. All because of conditioning. There's a possibility those beliefs are disprovable, however unlikely, and it may one day turn out to be proven that these appearances aren't whatever they seem to be. I may one day take the blue pill (was it the blue one?) and wake up in the true reality, but even that reality will be an appearance. So, yeah, knowing that all is an appearance is not a belief, it's a fact. All that we observe is just an appearance and that's an absolute truth. It requires no belief.

Kevin Solway · Post by **Kevin Solway** » Mon May 19, 2008 5:57 pm

Peter L wrote:What does a belief in truth mean?

It means, firstly, knowing what the truth is, and secondly, accepting it, remembering it, and living in accordance with it, which is to say, living in a manner consistent with having an understanding of the truth.

A belief (in the way people use it) implies room for doubt.

Sometimes people don't want to believe the truth. For example, you might learn that you have only 6 months to live, but if you can't deal with this truth you will put it out of your mind and try to forget it. And again you might discover that your wife of ten years is actually a man, and with no sexual attraction for men. If you were attached to your wife this truth would probably be difficult to accept, and difficult for one to believe.

In this manner truth and logic require faith. One must not be offended at truth. This is probably what Jesus meant when he said "Blessed is he who is not offended."

All that we observe is just an appearance and that's an absolute truth. It requires no belief.

Yet many people will find that truth difficult to believe. They will be offended.

Jason · Post by **Jason** » Mon May 19, 2008 6:46 pm

MickyL wrote:To have hope one needs be-lie-f ... To have be-lie-f there needs to be doubt...To have no doubt of the truth there is no need for hope or be-lie-f?

I have no doubt that I have hopes. I have no doubt that I have beliefs. I have no doubt that I have doubts. Therefore truth includes hopes, beliefs and doubts.

mikiel · Post by **mikiel** » Tue May 20, 2008 5:45 am

I see MikeyL was banned.
(Spooky similarity of names... The Pacific Ocean gave me mine... surf whispering it slowly... when I lay, nearly dead on Kaui's N.shore after having "my identity" lost at sea.)

Anyway, here is my piece on truth vs belief.
http://www.consciousunity.org/Beyond%20Belief.HTML
mikiel

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