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Iolus, I hope you don’t mind me addressing some of the points jehu makes to you, since it does concern my argument as well. I do apologize to Jehu for arguing so un-academically, but actually my English is not that good, so I have to resort to such crude way of pointing out inconsistencies, as
I see them.
Jehu,
While I fully acknowledge the existence of the relative world, and marvel at the wonder of it all, I do not make of it more than it really is – an illusion.
(Good, but nor should one make MORE of what one considers as real as well. For neither one can come before the other, nor can one be without the other. And one should try not to go any further than that, and turn poor down to earth existence into an “Absolute entity” placing it on a high pedestal or alter; according to me, none of us, or anything for that matter, is any more or less than what we call existence.)
Having said that, on the other hand… what makes you think that
YOU acknowledge? You can’t! It is the Absolute that is AWARE. So if you acknowledge, it is the awareness that is acknowledging, which means the Absolute, and if I say I don’t, then again it is awareness acknowledging that, which again is the Absolute. So you see my friend… it is like some absolutely empty egg shells (you and me, the relative) which are not only relative, but have no capacity to even think on individual basis at all, so any comparative or counter stand does not hold any comparative VALUE at all, because it is the same "entity" playing the game from any and every which end.
However, even though I assert that all that may be perceived by the senses is but an illusion,
Wrong; according your reasoned belief, “perceived by the senses” is but an illusion to begin with, and, “I assert” is an illusion too. Remember that “you” are a dream-persona, who does not have the capability to be aware. So what right do you have to use the word "I"? That is if there is really no other than that One "I", the absolute. Are "you" (Jehu) that Absolute? Then who or what exactly is that which listens, harkens, and awakes?
I also assert that that which perceives these illusions is real.
I Assert? In your dream perhaps; You can assert this, and I can assert that, and in either case it is the Absolute! And that is my point! It applies even to differently worded concepts (QRS and the likes) who on the one hand talk about Causality/Infinity/God in the same frame of capacity, as in, God does it all, (and plays ball from any which side/end, so what exactly is the point? And who or what gets enlightened? The Absolute/Infinity? Which was “ignorant” and now is “enlightened”?), and they too actually fail to acknowledge (or conveniently bypass it when making/stressing some other point of view), that WE are but a product of causal processes and partake of existence being an effect as much as being a CAUSE, and since each and every dust particle is as much a cause as an effect, each in as much holds “awareness” as “knowledge”, (I place them “A&K” in inverted commas to indicate that there are many who will not accept the fact that there is not a thing that does not partake of those two interdependent and complimentary aspects; Aspects NOT of some “reality” out there, but WITHIN each and every conceivable thing), which makes the interaction of any two things possible. If one thing is not “aware” of another, how the hell will motion take place? On what, and how will that which we acknowledge as Causality work? It is quiet easy to dismiss causality by asserting that “ultimately” it does not exist, nor does infinity, (but God does I suppose), but enlightened or not, there is not a single person worth his salt who can say he literally experiences any difference in raw perceptions, ONLY that there will necessarily be a shift or change in his/her personal conceptual perspective, making that one mentally react indifferently to situations that otherwise would have been emotionally devastating.
Just as in a dream, when the dream persona encounters something stressful, though the dream persona is but an illusion, that which experiences the stress is not an illusion.
Maybe it is not an illusion, but that which actually experiences the stress is the Absolute, correct?; and not those millions of souls who faced death-camps, war atrocities, hunger, disease, etc. Isn’t it? So next time I see a victim being burnt to death, do I think HE/SHE is in stress/distress or the Absolute, Jehu? Can I calmly and from a safe distance talk to the victim about who/what actually is feeling the stress and fear? Given these 28 odd pages of logical discourse of say absolute truth, can you give me one good logical reason why I should attempt to save that person?
If this were not so, then Sapius would be absolutely right, and there would be no point in awakening anyone.
I’m not sure what you mean by “IF
this was not so”? According to your “it
IS so”, do you realize that what you are also actually saying is that the Absolute needs awakening? Is it the dream-persona that is really ignorant? Awakes? Feels? Thinks? Reasons? No… it is always only the Absolute that is aware. So what exactly awakens? The Absolute that was ignorant? God forbid!
According to what you say, not only is there no point, but also there isn’t any individual really aware to begin with. And that which is aware, do you think needs awakening?
Again, no disrespect was intended, and Jehu, you ARE an awake soul as far as I’m concerned, operating through a fairly changed perspective of existence in off-net life I take it, logically for the better of all of course. And, please accept my apology for using crude or ironic statements.
PS; And you know what, one day I’m going to snatch that cycle of yours and ride away into the sunset, and leave you wondering over what exactly did he take? The wheels? The spokes? The steel? The atoms and molecules? Or reality? But it will always remain the cycle, which just like a tree, one need not define/name to experience its raw perception; you see, one can conceptually divide up a cycle, or conceptually add up all that there is, and call it reality, infinity, the absolute, God, Tao, etc., but yet, the raw experience of a “cycle” and say a “tree”, or absolutely whatever one expereinces, remains exactly the same in any given causally created moment, in and of existence; even a mirage or a dream is exactly just that for that matter, and existence is absolutely nothing beyond... just... that... alive... fraction of a moment, IMHO of course. Relaizing this, is always but a matter of changed
individual mental perspective, that's all, and tranquility sets in. Well, at least for me, and all who yearn for it have their own paths to follow, so all the best to all :)