The Fundamental Unity of Being

[Blair]

Have you?

I've got a question for you. Why do you think you are enlightened, and can speak with authority on the matter?

[Iolaus]

Jehu,

Oh, my question about the avatars was to anyone. I should have put it on another thread. I mean the pictures that people use on a forum such as this.

As I understand it, we have not yet really started to discuss the path. You said before we did, you needed to clear up a couple of things, with which I agreed, so I was pretty much waiting for you to open the discussion of the path .

[Jehu]

As I understand it, we have not yet really started to discuss the path. You said before we did, you needed to clear up a couple of things, with which I agreed, so I was pretty much waiting for you to open the discussion of the path .

Yes, you'r right, we have covered only the manifestation body, let us continue then with the elements of the recompense body: primary cause, secondary causes, effect and recompense. However, before we proceed, I must remind you that the causes spoken of here are not the real causes, but only the apparent ones, however, since we are ourselves only apparent beings, we are subject to the inviolable law of causality that governs all relative beings.

The primary cause is the apparent operative cause of the thing, and in the ancient wisdom traditions is likened to a seed. An acorn, for example, is the primary cause of an Oak tree, for it is the acorn which coordinates the coming together and amalgamation of the Oak tree’s secondary or constitutive causes (e.g., moisture, nutrients, sunlight, etc.) - contingent upon their being present, but the substance of the acorn is not itself incorporated into the substance of the tree, and so is not a constitutive cause.

The primary cause of the Path is called “right effort” and here denotes that strenuous mental and physical exertion which is conducive to the attainment of a tranquil mind. In other words, it is not enough to strive for an intellectual understanding of the true nature of reality, one must also strive to live one’s life in accordance with that understanding or view. Unfortunately, we are creatures of habit, and are prone to take the way that is well traveled, regardless of whether or not it yields the results we desire. Just as a tractor wheel tends to find a rut in the field and then follow it, so too do we, if we are unmindful, fall into a rut in our thinking.

[BMcGilly07]

As I understand it, we have not yet really started to discuss the path. You said before we did, you needed to clear up a couple of things, with which I agreed, so I was pretty much waiting for you to open the discussion of the path .

Yes, you'r right, we have covered only the manifestation body, let us continue then with the elements of the recompense body: primary cause, secondary causes, effect and recompense. However, before we proceed, I must remind you that the causes spoken of here are not the real causes, but only the apparent ones, however, since we are ourselves only apparent beings, we are subject to the inviolable law of causality that governs all relative beings.

The primary cause is the apparent operative cause of the thing, and in the ancient wisdom traditions is likened to a seed. An acorn, for example, is the primary cause of an Oak tree, for it is the acorn which coordinates the coming together and amalgamation of the Oak tree’s secondary or constitutive causes (e.g., moisture, nutrients, sunlight, etc.) - contingent upon their being present, but the substance of the acorn is not itself incorporated into the substance of the tree, and so is not a constitutive cause.

The primary cause of the Path is called “right effort” and here denotes that strenuous mental and physical exertion which is conducive to the attainment of a tranquil mind. In other words, it is not enough to strive for an intellectual understanding of the true nature of reality, one must also strive to live one’s life in accordance with that understanding or view. Unfortunately, we are creatures of habit, and are prone to take the way that is well traveled, regardless of whether or not it yields the results we desire. Just as a tractor wheel tends to find a rut in the field and then follow it, so too do we, if we are unmindful, fall into a rut in our thinking.

There are many frameworks to view causality, I think the best I've encountered so far is that of Nagarjuna's as outlined in his Mulamadhyamakakarika (The Fundamental Wisdom of
the Middle Way) from the interpretation and commentary by Jay Garfield, these are the words of the latter:

"When Nagarjuna uses the word 'cause', he has in mind an event or state that has in it a power to bring about its effect and has that power as part of its essence or nature. When he uses the term 'condition' on the other hand, he has in mind an event, state, or process that can be appealed to in explaining another event, state, or process without any metaphysical commitment to any occult connection between explanandum and explanans."

He goes further in interpreting the following stanza from Nagarjuna from the above-referenced text:

1.
A) Neither from itself nor from another,
B) Nor from both,
C) Nor without a cause
D) Does anything whatever, anywhere arise.


Our standard understanding of a cause, and what I gather is similar to your understanding of a cause as displayed above, is that of either a single thing, or one among many others as the causative agent of an effect. If we look at 1.D in light of the 1.A-B, we see that neither from itself (meaning that if a cause possesses the effect, than the effect is pre-existent in the cause), nor from another "thing", nor from both does a thing arise. 1.C demonstrates that things do not arise acausally either.

Nagarjuna would reject the billiard ball understanding of causation, Nagarjuna goes further to outline the four types of conditions that replace the standard understanding of causation. With an especially psychological emphasis on causation as conditions, Nagarjuna states the following:

2.
A) There are four conditions: efficient condition;
B) Percept-object condition; immediate condition;
C) Dominant condition; just so.
D) There is no fifth condition.

Jay Garfield comments on this stanza, defining the different conditions:

"Efficient conditions are those salient events that explain the occurrence of subsequent events: Striking a match is the efficient condition for lighting...
The percept-object condition is in its primary sense the object in the environment that is the condition for a mind's perception of it...
The immediate conditions are the countless intermediary phenomena that emerge upon the analysis of a causal chain
The dominant condition is the purpose or end for which an action is undertaken..."

When we breakdown Nagarjuna's wisdom, it appears that he doesn't think there are causes in the sense that we do, only that there are conditions which arise together, dependent upon one another.

[Iolaus]

Jehu,

The manifestation body being the long discussion we have had with the 5 skandas, the relative and absolute, essence and form, the law of identity?

It seems that you are calling primary cause that which is closest, but not the most deep and true, which is the absolute. I would have reversed it, but okay.

[Jehu]

BM,

An excellent summary of Nagarjuna’s stance on causality, and in full accord which what we are asserting here. However, with respect to the formulation called the Path, we are not so much concerned with conditions, but with the two kinds of causes; which we have here called “operative” and “constitutive”, the former being that which gives rise to the form or appearance of the thing, and the latter, those which give rise to its essence or constitution.

[Jehu]

The manifestation body being the long discussion we have had with the 5 skandas, the relative and absolute, essence and form, the law of identity?

The formulations are a sort of shorthand, wherein each term is to be interpreted on the basis of its position in the formulation in accordance with the fundamental element which holds that position; i.e., form, essence, embodiment, potency, function, primary cause, secondary cause, effect, recompense. The Five Skandas are a formulation of the manifestation body (i.e., its form, essence, embodiment, potency and function) of the Ego Personality, whereas the manifestation body of the Path entails: right view (form), right resolve (essence), right expression (embodiment), right action (potency) and right livelihood (function).

It seems that you are calling primary cause that which is closest, but not the most deep and true, which is the absolute. I would have reversed it, but okay.

The primary or seed cause is that cause which is closest to the Absolute, for it is the operative cause, and so is related to the form of the thing. If you remember, I said that although forms are subject to alteration and so are not real, there is associated with each form an underlying potentiality which is real; i.e., absolute, independent and immutable. Forms themselves, because they are mere approximations of these absolute potentials, are subject to change, however, so long as these changes lie within certain parameters, the mind will still recognizable the form as a given class of thing, e.g., a boat.

[Iolaus]

OK, so the operative cause is closer to the absolute than the constitutive cause. That makes sense, as there is more intelligence and direction involved.

[Jehu]

OK, so the operative cause is closer to the absolute than the constitutive cause. That makes sense, as there is more intelligence and direction involved.

Yes, the primary cause of a thing is that which appears to direct the amalgamation of the thing’s constitutive causes, and is unique to each class of thing; i.e., an acorn gives rise to only an Oak tree, and not to a Maple tree; though the two species have nearly identical constitutive causes.

Now, the secondary (constitutive) causes of the Path are called “right mindfulness”, where the term “mindfulness” signifies the need to keep one’s mind fixed firmly on what one is doing; however, this alone will not suffice, for even a safe cracker can be mindful of what they do. Right mindfulness entails keeping one’s mind fixed firmly upon the true nature of things, so that one will not be caught unaware, and so fall into old habitual actions. Normally, we spend a great deal of our time either in the past or in the future, both of which exist only in our imagination. Meanwhile, we are running on autopilot, and responding to entirely new situations with old, and often unsuccessful approaches. Practicing right mindfulness enables us to see each situation for what it truly is; i.e., devoid of the influence of past experiences or future considerations, so that we may always act in the appropriate way – and not react in some harmful fashion.

[Iolaus]

On the other hand it is a time saver to categorize situations, and also by thinking of the future we can influence it. My plans I began to desire last autumn I am just now bringing to fruition, which required some thought and planning.

The future did not exist at the time, and was imaginary I suppose, and yet I had good cause to believe that it was worth my efforts because if nothing unexpected occurred, I could take it this way or that.

So how do you incorporate some simple thing, like shopping for a week's worth of dinner plans, with the idea that the future is only imaginary?

[Jehu]

On the other hand it is a time saver to categorize situations, and also by thinking of the future we can influence it. My plans I began to desire last autumn I am just now bringing to fruition, which required some thought and planning.

The future did not exist at the time, and was imaginary I suppose, and yet I had good cause to believe that it was worth my efforts because if nothing unexpected occurred, I could take it this way or that.

So how do you incorporate some simple thing, like shopping for a week's worth of dinner plans, with the idea that the future is only imaginary?

Do not misunderstand me, I am not saying that we should not plan for the future, for that would have disastrous consequences. If you are planning for the future, then be mindful of that planning, and do not allow your imagination to embellish what is actually known of that future; and be mindful that your version of the past is but one among many. However, if you are doing something else, then be mindful of that which you are doing, and do not allow your mind to slip away. Most importantly, one must be mindful of the fact that whatever the mind takes as its object, this object is not real, but only an illusion; and this will enable the mind to maintain a state of “right concentration”.

What is right concentration? Right concentration is a state of mind wherein there is no mental resistance to whatever might be happening in the world, for it is understood that the Universe is unfolding exactly as it should. For this reason, there arises no thoughts such as “This is not right!” or “This should never have happened!”. There is only the naked perception of what is actually occurring, without any sort of judgement attached. Right concentration is the effect of the Path, and its recompense is a “tranquil mind”; or what the Buddhists sometimes call the “cessation of suffering”.

[Iolaus]

Jehu,

So it would be good in general to keep in mind what about the present moment is imputed to the situation unnecessarily from one's past experiences and assumptions.

What is right concentration? Right concentration is a state of mind wherein there is no mental resistance to whatever might be happening in the world, for it is understood that the Universe is unfolding exactly as it should. For this reason, there arises no thoughts such as “This is not right!” or “This should never have happened!”. There is only the naked perception of what is actually occurring, without any sort of judgement attached. Right concentration is the effect of the Path, and its recompense is a “tranquil mind”; or what the Buddhists sometimes call the “cessation of suffering”.

Well!!!
This is easier said than done.
In the physical life, survival is the key. That's the whole point of it. To be here, in a physical body, and have experiences. If a person were fully aware of their eternal nature at all times, then a mother could watch a lion tear her infant to pieces and remain calm, rejoicing that all is unfolding as it should, and that the entity goes nowhere.

At the same time, if we thought everything was unfolding as it should, where would we step in to make the myriad decisions to bring about situations we might like? or would it ever be appropriate to avoid pain?

And yet...and yet I find myself quite often, in my many moments of blissful reverie, being as it were invaded by a sense of things unfolding exactly as they should. It has been happening increasingly, perhaps only for the past year or thereabouts, when I have a sense that comes unbidden and seems nonlogical, that all around is beauty and perfection and that nothing but perfection is possible.

I find it disconcerting! There's a world to fix! People are dying unecessarily while paying the inquisitors for the torture of their loved ones, being extorted for the price of fuel with which their family member will be burned at the stake.

[Jehu]

So it would be good in general to keep in mind what about the present moment is imputed to the situation unnecessarily from one's past experiences and assumptions.

Better still, do not allow the imagination to muddy the waters of perception in the first place.

Well!!!
This is easier said than done.
In the physical life, survival is the key. That's the whole point of it. To be here, in a physical body, and have experiences.

No, this is not the point at all. The true function (purpose) of the human existence is to be an agent of the Absolute, so that the suffering of sentient beings might be relieved. We are not here for our own welfare, but for the welfare of all sentient beings.

If a person were fully aware of their eternal nature at all times, then a mother could watch a lion tear her infant to pieces and remain calm, rejoicing that all is unfolding as it should, and that the entity goes nowhere.

Yes, though she would not rejoice, for a tranquil mind is neither for nor against what is happening. However, if she had the abilty to save the child she would, for it is the function of a mother to protect her children.

At the same time, if we thought everything was unfolding as it should, where would we step in to make the myriad decisions to bring about situations we might like? or would it ever be appropriate to avoid pain?

Equanimity is not indifference, nor is it a state of stupidity. The awakened ones knows that the body must eat, and so they feed and care for it; for without the body they can have no effect upon the relative world.

And yet...and yet I find myself quite often, in my many moments of blissful reverie, being as it were invaded by a sense of things unfolding exactly as they should. It has been happening increasingly, perhaps only for the past year or thereabouts, when I have a sense that comes unbidden and seems nonlogical, that all around is beauty and perfection and that nothing but perfection is possible.

Indeed, but we must not succumb to the lure of bliss, for there is much work to be done – especially in the coming years.

I find it disconcerting! There's a world to fix! People are dying unecessarily while paying the inquisitors for the torture of their loved ones, being extorted for the price of fuel with which their family member will be burned at the stake.

There is nothing that needs fixing but one’s self, for until we overcome our own dysfunctional tendencies, any actions we take will only add to the suffering that is in the world. (Physician heal thyself!)

[Iolaus]

Jehu,

Better still, do not allow the imagination to muddy the waters of perception in the first place.

But doesn't it happen most of the time so quickly and also semi consciously so that we are not aware of it?

No, this is not the point at all. The true function (purpose) of the human existence is to be an agent of the Absolute, so that the suffering of sentient beings might be relieved. We are not here for our own welfare, but for the welfare of all sentient beings.

Well in order to become an agent of the absolute one must have lifetimes in which the experiences add up to awakenings.

Equanimity is not indifference, nor is it a state of stupidity.

So basically we have a world full of suffering entities to be assisted, and yet everything is unfolding as it should.

, for there is much work to be done – especially in the coming years.

What do you think about the coming years?

There is nothing that needs fixing but one’s self, for until we overcome our own dysfunctional tendencies, any actions we take will only add to the suffering that is in the world.

Yes, purification is good, but it seems to me that rather than trying all sorts of techniques and driving oneself, and feeling guilty if we neglect the rules, that we can best fix our self by focusing on the deeper aspect of ourselves and others, where the love and good will is, and let the impurities disappear of their own accord.

Indeed, but we must not succumb to the lure of bliss

Bliss is good, it is a purifying agent.

[Jehu]

But doesn't it happen most of the time so quickly and also semi consciously so that we are not aware of it?

Yes, it does, and that is why we must strive to remain ever mindful and aware of what is actually happening.

Well in order to become an agent of the absolute one must have lifetimes in which the experiences add up to awakenings.

Yes, but we can awaken in this very lifetime, if we have the capacity, and choose to do so. It is said that just as the potter’s wheel gives rise to that form which is called a pot, the suffering of others is the wheel which gives rise to that form which is called an enlightening being.

So basically we have a world full of suffering entities to be assisted, and yet everything is unfolding as it should.

The world is filled with suffering because there is ignorance and selfishness. Everything is unfolding as its should, because ignorance and grasping give rise to suffering – in accordance with the inviolable law of causality. Like everything, if we know its causes, and are careful not cultivate them, then suffering will not arise.

What do you think about the coming years?

There is much suffering in the near future, for in our greed we have sewn the seeds of what we must now harvest; for the inviolable law demands that the ledger be balanced – through individual and collective recompense.

Yes, purification is good, but it seems to me that rather than trying all sorts of techniques and driving oneself, and feeling guilty if we neglect the rules, that we can best fix our self by focusing on the deeper aspect of ourselves and others, where the love and good will is, and let the impurities disappear of their own accord.

Indeed! However, to live a good life may ensure one that future recompense will be good rather than bad, but this will not free one from the cycle of becoming, and its attendant suffering. Whatever is born must then grow old, and then it must become ill, and then it must die; and all of these are stressful and difficult to bear.

Bliss is good, it is a purifying agent.

Bliss, if one clings to it, becomes a formidable obstacle to one’s Path.

[Iolaus]

Jehu,

Yes, it does, and that is why we must strive to remain ever mindful and aware of what is actually happening.

What sort of examples can you think of?

Yes, but we can awaken in this very lifetime, if we have the capacity, and choose to do so. It is said that just as the potter’s wheel gives rise to that form which is called a pot, the suffering of others is the wheel which gives rise to that form which is called an enlightening being.

The suffering of others?

There is much suffering in the near future, for in our greed we have sewn the seeds of what we must now harvest; for the inviolable law demands that the ledger be balanced – through individual and collective recompense.

America throws cluster bombs in Iraqi children and there is a tsunami in southeast Asia. What do you think of this?
I don't know of you are an American, but I do worry that we have some big recompense coming.

Indeed! However, to live a good life may ensure one that future recompense will be good rather than bad, but this will not free one from the cycle of becoming, and its attendant suffering. Whatever is born must then grow old, and then it must become ill, and then it must die; and all of these are stressful and difficult to bear.

But I am not talking about merely living a good life, I am talking about real spiritual advancement. Does this not carry over into a next lifetime?

Bliss, if one clings to it, becomes a formidable obstacle to one’s Path.

How so? What sort of bliss?

[Jehu]

What sort of examples can you think of?

Could you be more specific, examples of mindfulness, or examples of how the past and future distort the present?

The suffering of others?

While it is our own suffering which generally motivates most of us to seek the path to enlightenment, it is our compassion for the suffering of others that keeps us in the dream – even when we are no longer bound by it.

America throws cluster bombs in Iraqi children and there is a tsunami in southeast Asia. What do you think of this?

I don't know of you are an American, but I do worry that we have some big recompense coming.

Do not be too hard on the Americans, for all nation have contributed to the coming storm. Even an organization which was founded upon the notion of world peace, such as is the United Nations, cannot overcome the human tendency toward self-service; and so the suffering continues.

But I am not talking about merely living a good life, I am talking about real spiritual advancement. Does this not carry over into a next lifetime?

You speak of spiritual advancement as thought it were something apart from awakening to our true nature, and becoming one with that nature; but this is not so.

How so? What sort of bliss?

The sort of bliss that causes one to retire from the world, though they have achieved only a small measure of awakening. This sort of awakening may be likened to a seed that takes root and lives out its life, but never bears fruit or reproduces new seeds for the future.

[Iolaus]

Jehu,

Could you be more specific, examples of mindfulness, or examples of how the past and future distort the present?

I just mean the latter, how the imagination sneaks in while you're not looking and skews your interpretation of events.

Me: The suffering of others?

Jehu: While it is our own suffering which generally motivates most of us to seek the path to enlightenment, it is our compassion for the suffering of others that keeps us in the dream – even when we are no longer bound by it.

But you said: the suffering of others is the wheel which gives rise to that form which is called an enlightening being.

You are saying that we become enlightened by trying to help others?

me: America throws cluster bombs in Iraqi children and there is a tsunami in southeast Asia. What do you think of this?
I don't know of you are an American, but I do worry that we have some big recompense coming.
jehu: Do not be too hard on the Americans, for all nations have contributed to the coming storm.

Well, specifically I was saying above that it's strange the Tsunami went to Asia when it seems like American is building up to a huge karmic recompense.
I don't know if all nations have contributed equally. Do you think so? But that doesn't necessarily matter, for a person might incarnate for the purpose of innocent suffering.

Why do you think there is a storm coming now, out of all other possible times?

Me: But I am not talking about merely living a good life, I am talking about real spiritual advancement. Does this not carry over into a next lifetime?

jehu: You speak of spiritual advancement as thought it were something apart from awakening to our true nature, and becoming one with that nature; but this is not so.

No, I don't think that's what I said. Let me recap.

You said: All is unfolding as it should.

I said: Yes, I feel the truth of that, but sometimes find it an odd perception, when there is suffering and ignorance.

You said: There is nothing to fix but the self, for otherwise one's own dysfunction will only add to the problems. (This seems like a slight change of topic).

I said: I find that there is much spiritual striving that focuses on effort with a wrong attitude, with striving and self-depreciation, whereas for me it seems that purification is happening of its own accord by the development of what I call spiritual vision. This is a term I got from David Hawkins, whom I consider one of the best spiritual authors of all time.
I really don't feel responsible for the process except in that I am grateful and aware and seek. My path is one of unconditional love and radical forgiveness. I don't see people the way I used to. Now, all I see is perfection. The imperfections are there, and at times I'm vulnerable to reacting to it, but now it isn't the only thing I see. What else I see takes precedence. In other words, the other things I see are more important, more real and enduring. I see the purity and goodwill deep inside, while the bad behaviors and such are like an artifact, or temporary, a problem and yet somewhat boring. Boring because in quality it is like the wheat and the chaff. Why worry about the chaff? Why pay attention to it? It will blow away in the wind. There is neither merit nor fault. All people are the same, reacting exactly as they must given the circumstances. One day I was like them, one day they will be like me. And all this makes me very happy. Thus my statement that bliss is good.

At the same time, that doesn't mean one should allow oneself to be embroiled in dysfunctionality with other people. This state is delicate. We are not strong here. Such strength as cannot be shaken is a long way off. One therefore helps those who can hear, not those who are extremely resistant.

You said: If you live a good life and get some good karma for the next life, that will not be an awakening and you'll continue in the karmic wheel.

I said: But if one has the kind of inner experience I am talking about, even if full awakening does not occur in this lifetime, surely it will not be completely lost?
++
How does this relate to me speaking of spiritual advancement as though it were different than awakening to our true nature?

The sort of bliss that causes one to retire from the world, though they have achieved only a small measure of awakening.

Indeed, I think of doing this very thing and have joked about going to my country place and closing a gate at the bottom of it, and just staying in my little personal heaven, planting flowers and landscaping the grounds.
However, I actually plan to try to help uplift humanity. I do find my job to be a downer, though. And a time waster.

[Jehu]

“I just mean the latter, how the imagination sneaks in while you're not looking and skews your interpretation of events.”

It may be as simple as when the memory of some past event is used to measure the worth of a present event, such as, for example, that perfect meal with which all future meals are compared, and found lacking. Or, it may be the less that pleasant encounter with some co-worker which then colours all your future interactions – even though the original unpleasantness had nothing to do with you, but with something that was going on in the other person’s life at that time.

“But you said: the suffering of others is the wheel which gives rise to that form which is called an enlightening being.”

What I am saying is that those who seek to attain enlightenment for themselves alone, will never accomplish perfect enlightenment, for so long as there remains even a trace of ego-personality, there is the possibility that the enlightened one may eventually descend once again into ignorance.

“You are saying that we become enlightened by trying to help others? ”

I am merely saying that as our enlightenment deepens, we naturally turn away from the service of our apparent self (ego-personality), and to the service of our true self – which is the true self of all.

“Well, specifically I was saying above that it's strange the Tsunami went to Asia when it seems like American is building up to a huge karmic recompense
I don't know if all nations have contributed equally. Do you think so? But that doesn't necessarily matter, for a person might incarnate for the purpose of innocent suffering. “

Recompense is an exceedingly subtle concept, and difficult to comprehend. Just as it is difficult to say exactly how the ripples will interact as they move across a pond, when one disturbs its surface, it is unimaginably more difficult to say exactly how our lives will impact the lives of other, or the environment. Nevertheless, one can rest absolutely assured that they will have an impact, and so we must ensure that our impact is not harmful.

“Why do you think there is a storm coming now, out of all other possible times?”

Our collective environment has suffer immeasurable damage these past two centuries, and soon it will reach the point where it is no longer able to sustain the abundance of life that it presently does. All life on Earth, like all things, is interrelated, and so the lose of any one life form will have an adverse impact on all other life forms.

Further, we have not yet accepted that things cannot go on as they are, and continue to look to our politicians and scientists to find ways that will allow us to continue our destructive practices. Clearly, it does not take a seer to see what is about to befall us.

You said: If you live a good life and get some good karma for the next life, that will not be an awakening and you'll continue in the karmic wheel.

I said: But if one has the kind of inner experience I am talking about, even if full awakening does not occur in this lifetime, surely it will not be completely lost?

That all depends upon what path you chose to take in the next life, for if you enter the next life without having awakened to your true nature, circumstances might propel you into deeper ignorance; an then whatever gains you have made in this life may be lost.

How does this relate to me speaking of spiritual advancement as though it were different than awakening to our true nature?”

You speak of spiritual advancement as though it were something other than Right Path, but this is not so. The Right Path which we have been describing here is the one that leads to spiritual advancement, and is precisely the path you are on – though you do not yet recognize it as such. When I said that the Path and the one who travels it are the same, I mean that the term “being”, which is often taken to be a noun such as when we speak of the “sentient being”; is really a verb. That is to say, being is a journey, wherein there is nothing that moves from here to there; enlightenment does not exist anywhere but here and now. There is no time to waste!

Indeed, I think of doing this very thing and have joked about going to my country place and closing a gate at the bottom of it, and just staying in my little personal heaven, planting flowers and landscaping the grounds.

However, I actually plan to try to help uplift humanity. I do find my job to be a downer, though. And a time waster.

If you have not already read it, Dr. Rachel Naomi Remen’s book “Kitchen Table Wisdom” may be just the thing your looking for, with respect to making your work experience more meaningful and fulfilling.

[Iolaus]

Jehu,

It may be as simple as

Yes, I see there are a thousand ways...so it would take a lot of practice to be aware of it.

so long as there remains even a trace of ego-personality, there is the possibility that the enlightened one may eventually descend once again into ignorance.

Hmmm...that is discouraging. Perhaps it is one of those religious lies, inserted by the negative entities to frighten human beings. But, you probably don't believe that. How would this descent occur? Through reincarnations? Each one becoming less aware and enlightened?

circumstances might propel you into deeper ignorance;

It seems like a very blind process. You don't think the soul takes care to incarnate to learn certain lessons?

an then whatever gains you have made in this life may be lost.

It could happen, but it seems like there would be a tendency against it. The lessons learned would be impressed upon the character in the next life.

You speak of spiritual advancement as though it were something other than Right Path, but this is not so.

I still don't see why you say this, although I see spiritual advancement as the process of purification and dropping away of delusions, so that one begins to spontaneously see clearly.

If you have not already read it, Dr. Rachel Naomi Remen’s book “Kitchen Table Wisdom” may be just the thing your looking for, with respect to making your work experience more meaningful and fulfilling.

I very seriously doubt that. You see, it isn't that I don't see any good in my job, it's that there is so much that is also wrong with it. I'm like a servant employed in a prison where they keep the accused at the inquisition. I'm a compassionate person and I enjoy binding the wounds, bringing water to their thirsty lips, and I feel empathy as I watch them slowly deteriorate as their bodies are ravaged by the attentions of the inquisitors, and I am likewise kind and consoling to the families who are required to pay for the services, as well as pay for the fuel for the burning at the stake. And my fellow workers are nice people, too. It is certainly a deeply meaningful experience with opportunities for mindfulness and compassion.

Those old cliches that one barely takes seriously, like "This world is the devil's playground" are very true. Our world is desperately, desperately corrupt. Lies and suppression and twisting of truth are everywhere, in every endeavor. Business, science, medicine, politics.

Medicine.

[Carl G]

Well in order to become an agent of the absolute one must have lifetimes in which the experiences add up to awakenings.

Yes, but we can awaken in this very lifetime, if we have the capacity, and choose to do so.

It is interesting that you verify the concept of literal reincarnation. On what basis do you do so?

[Jehu]

Yes, I see there are a thousand ways...so it would take a lot of practice to be aware of it.

Yes, practice is a good word for it; we must practice awareness.

Hmmm...that is discouraging. Perhaps it is one of those religious lies, inserted by the negative entities to frighten human beings. But, you probably don't believe that. How would this descent occur? Through reincarnations? Each one becoming less aware and enlightened?

As I said before, there is no standing still on the path, and so one must either progress or regress. Hermann Hesse paints a vivid picture of this regression in his novel “Siddhartha”, where an enlightening being leaves the path to pursue worldly endeavours, and slowly falls into ignorance and suffering. Fortunately for him, Siddhartha has the wisdom to recognize what is happening to him, and quickly returns to his practice; and so facilitates his eventually awakening.

It seems like a very blind process. You don't think the soul takes care to incarnate to learn certain lessons?

How can a soul that dwells in ignorance know what lessons it requires? It is not the soul that determines its next incarnation, but the Absolute; and the nature of its new life is dependent upon its conduct in its past life. It is far from being a blind process, for there is nothing – no matter how trivial – that escapes the Absolute, and being an inviolable law – well, I think you get the point.

It could happen, but it seems like there would be a tendency against it. The lessons learned would be impressed upon the character in the next life.

People may be likened to the electrified bumpers of a pin ball machine, wherein each bumper is endowed with a potential which enables it to interact with the balls. Now, this very potential is what is required to achieve awakening, and so one must strive to accumulate this potential, rather than to expend it. So, each time someone or something bumps up against us, and we react, whatever potential we might have received from that interaction is immediately dispelled, and we are left spiritually weakened. Eventually, our capacity will drop below the level that will enable us to even hear the truth, and so we will enter an even deeper state of ignorance. This is why the wisdom traditions are called “esoteric”, not because there is anything that is intentionally hidden, but because not everyone has the capacity to perceive what is in plain view.

I still don't see why you say this, although I see spiritual advancement as the process of purification and dropping away of delusions, so that one begins to spontaneously see clearly.

What I am trying to say is that you are already on the Right Path, else we would not be having this discussion. You simply do not yet see that the Path we have described here is your own.

I very seriously doubt that. You see, it isn't that I don't see any good in my job, it's that there is so much that is also wrong with it. I'm like a servant employed in a prison where they keep the accused at the inquisition. I'm a compassionate person and I enjoy binding the wounds, bringing water to their thirsty lips, and I feel empathy as I watch them slowly deteriorate as their bodies are ravaged by the attentions of the inquisitors, and I am likewise kind and consoling to the families who are required to pay for the services, as well as pay for the fuel for the burning at the stake. And my fellow workers are nice people, too. It is certainly a deeply meaningful experience with opportunities for mindfulness and compassion.

Those old cliches that one barely takes seriously, like "This world is the devil's playground" are very true. Our world is desperately, desperately corrupt. Lies and suppression and twisting of truth are everywhere, in every endeavor. Business, science, medicine, politics.

Medicine.

Indeed, but nevertheless, it is exactly as it should be. Consequently, we can chose either to keep our heads - so that we can offer whatever aid or solace we are capable of, and so reduce the suffering of others, or we can give in to our feelings of hopelessness, and become a source of additional suffering. I highly recommend that you read “Kitchen Table Wisdom”, for the author has much to say regarding your particular branch of health care.

[Jehu]

It is interesting that you verify the concept of literal reincarnation. On what basis do you do so?

I don’t know that I would call it “literal reincarnation”, for have I not consistantly denied that there is anything that is really born or dies?

[Carl G]

Literal within the context of human biology and metaphysical reality. By literal I didn't mean inherent, anymore than humans themselves are inherent. You agreed with Iolaus concerning humans having multiple lives, only insofar, I understand, as lives are a function of our experiencings. People have the experience of multiple lives.

Or, what would you call it?

[Loki]

Well in order to become an agent of the absolute one must have lifetimes in which the experiences add up to awakenings.

Yeah, Iolaus shouldn't have been left off the hook so easily. Her conclusion above strikes me as very smug and silly.